There have been fast white sprinters.....

[JD074]

Muscles are one thing. Strength is another.

We're not talking about strength, we're talking about speed.

Hence, powerlifters being stronger than bodybuilders.

Of course, they train for strength, bodybuilders train for physique. That doesn't mean that powerlifters don't benefit from bigger muscles.

This doesn't translate to them being stronger.

It translates into a very important advantage.

Whites are stronger. Also, Blacks often look stronger than they are because of their color and the thinness of their skin. This is why Whites tan so much when bodybuilding. It makes you look more "cut up". Pigmentation has nothing to do with strength.

I agree with that. Dark, oily (or sweaty) skin shows off muscles. Also, less body fat shows off muscles. That's another advantage blacks seem to have. But it's not about how they look, it's about their testosterone levels, regardless of appearance.

 

[JD074]

You guys are getting awfully defensive. I must be hitting a nerve.

Wow,boxing doesn't require jumping and running,thanks for telling me that I never would have known.

Of course it's obvious. That was the whole point. Boxing is not sprinting.

Hand-speed is what can be lost by being too bulky.

I don't know much about the effect of muscle mass on hand speed, except that more muscle, as a rule, means more strength and more speed. It's self-evident. More muscle is a good thing for an athlete. I can't believe we're even arguing this!

I have heard that big arms can get fatigued during a fight, because you have to hold them up for so long. Arm fatigue could definitely affect hand speed! But you don't have to hold your legs up for half an hour in sprinting. I know, another obvious point. I have to make a lot of obvious points around here.

The bottom line is that these black 100m sprinters who are beating the sh*t out of our men (and women!) are totally ripped. It is NOT hurting their performance.

Boxers who do a little bit of different weight-training as in more reps and less weight should be okay.It never hurt Roy Jones any.

Roy Jones? That dude was f*cking ripped, too!

No guff Calzaghe beat Lacy with skill,tell that to Robin Reid not me.

Great, now I want to see some white male 100m sprinters beat some ass, too.

 

[JD074]

I don't care about testosterone levels,speed is part genetic and mostly working your ass off to get to the elite level.

You should care.

Just ask Clyde Hart who has coached both Michael Johnson & Jeremy Wariner.

Just ask Michael Johnson about muscle mass! Look, I'm not arguing that an athlete needs high levels of testosterone. I'm just saying that it's a critical advantage. No offense, White Lightning, but it's incredibly naive of you to rant endlessly about how "it's all in their heads" and all white athletes have to do is "believe in themselves..." and then admit that blacks have "way higher levels" of a very important male hormone. Please.

Color has very little to do with it!

Hormones have a lot to do with it. God, it's like I'm talking to a brick wall.

 

[JD074]

Sorry for the multiple posts. One more:

I agree WL. Discipline and drive are the key.

They're important, but physical differences matter, physical limitations matter, genetics matters, hormones matter.

Whites are have plenty of natural athletic ability to compete in anything. Athleticism is a lot more than just testosterone.

Straw man argument. No one is saying that testosterone is the only thing. It's one of many possible advantages, but it is an advantage. And a big one.

We're not that far behind on that anyway. Also, those are just averages. I'm sure our standard deviation for measuring that is large just like it is when measuring IQ. If you combine intelligence and testosterone, we have every group beat hands down.

Good point. But there is a difference between Europe and Africa.... Average differences matter.

I know, another obvious point.
Edited by: JD074

 

[KG2422]

Well, biology can be quite complex. There are more androgens than just testosterone. Most men with the highest testosterone levels are not sprinters anyway. They're bulky guys. I think Carl Lewis and a few other sprinters are gay. Testosterone doesn't seem to be the secret to his success. And what I was trying to say as far as the standard deviation thing goes, it's like it is with IQ. Our IQs may not be as high ,on average, as East Asians ,but we have more creative geniuses. That sort of thing has many intangible variables that are more difficult to measure than observe. My personal belief is that we may not have as many athletes as Blacks, but our elite athletes can beat their elite athletes (especially in team sports) because of intangible characteristics and dispositions.

 

[white lightning]

Again I will bring into argument the sheer numbers of possible sprinters we have to choose from worldwide.Just in the United States alone I guarantee there are guys that could be just as good as Carl Lewis,Ato Boldon,Frankie Fredericks,Maurice Green & Justin Gatlin.
First off,we already know how many of these elite sprinters have been proven to be on performance enhancing drugs.Blacks makeup only approx 11% of the population here yet we dominate the sprints worldwide.Why is it that West Africa doesn't dominate the sprints?Two reasons,lack of coaching,money,and the special supplements that the americans all have.It is not a secret.Look at Balco.How many sprinters from here have been as big or bigger cheats than the old east german sprinters of the 60's.The US protects their athletes at all cause.Col.Callan has even given countless examples of coverups in this country.Now with our white population,probably as big or bigger than any other nation,you cannot tell me that we would not be able to find 5 or 10 guys at the least to be elite sprinters.Most of these guys never even step on a track.It's not all about color.Is Jeremy Wariner and Andrew Rock from Mars or something?They are white as can be and the best in the world.You will see some white sprinters from here in the very near future.You can only keep the white man down for so long.Go ahead and laugh if you want.Just remember who told you what will eventually happen.I just want to see the look on everyones faces in this country & the world when a white guy is the fastest man on the planet!!

Edited by: white lightning

 

[speedster]

Interesting.The more posts I read it's becoming pretty evident that many of you feel that blacks do have advantages over whites.If that is the case then people like JD shouldn't complain when they feel a white guy got the shaft somewhere.

 

[white lightning]

Great point speedster.To say that it is highly unlikley or almost impossible for white sprinters is an insult to guys like A.Harry,B.Morrow,A.Wells,V,Borzov,K.Little,and many others just like them.People willl belive what they want to.Wariner has been interviewed about his ethnicity on many occasions.Jeremy has told them that his parents raised him to believe that we are all basically the same physically.Some whites are fast,some blacks are fast,but in general,they told him he could do what ever he wanted to.He just had to believe in himself.Wariners Parents never discouraged him from football or track.They did nothing but encourage him.Sometimes I believe that we think too much and overanalyze things.We need to support these kids and encourage the younger generation to get out there and do it.You only live once and it would be a shame to not even try to suceed.Screw color,screw testesterone,and screw staying in certain white sports.Break down the barriers and demand respect!!

 

[devans]

Your last post is spot on WL. People just need to get out there and compete, and they will be surprised what they can do, and who they can beat.

 

[JD074]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm saying that higher testosterone levels are an advantage. I'm NOT saying that white athletes can't compete. I feel like I'm debating with futuregohan or jody. Unbelievable. It's so hard to argue with people who can't comprehend basic concepts.

As for West Africa, White Lightning, you're right. They're idiots who can't get their act together. The blacks in America and Europe have the best of both worlds: their genetics and our training. I saw an interview with Donnie Nelson on Basketball International, and he said that Africa is the next big thing in terms of recruiting basketball players. Watch out guys. It's coming. Look at all these blacks in Latin America coming up in various sports; why not Africans? Sure, white people will have to go in there and train them, teach them, feed them, etc. They probably can't do it themselves. But with our help, they can, just like they have in America, Europe, and Latin America.

And I'm so tired of the drug argument. So what? We can take them, too. Jason Giambi did. Mark MacGwire did (or he's the biggest f*cking retard on the planet for refusing to talk about it.)

At some point we have to take responsibility for our own failures. If white athletes choose not to sprint, that's their decision. We have to accept that. Maybe it's too big of an uphill battle for most white athletes. Oh well. I will continue to root for those who actually are good (like Wariner.) Edited by: JD074

 

[JD074]

Interesting.The more posts I read it's becoming pretty evident that many of you feel that blacks do have advantages over whites.If that is the case then people like JD shouldn't complain when they feel a white guy got the shaft somewhere.

Wrong. Just because blacks have advantages doesn't mean that whites can't compete. The Caste System is basically an over-simplification, a shortcut. Since blacks are better at running, jumping, agility, and explosiveness, on average, coaches simply focus on blacks and ignore whites. Of course whites can compete, and they shouldn't get "shafted" when they can. Coaches simply have to be more objective, even if it means being less efficient.
Edited by: JD074

 

[JD074]

One more:

Jeremy has told them that his parents raised him to believe that we are all basically the same physically.

That's not what you think.

 

[white lightning]

That's not what I think.How would you know JD074?I'm just curious as you seem to know what I'm thinking better than I do.lol. Anyways,back on the subject matter.Explain to me why we were competetive for around 40 years in sprinting against the black athletes.Then all of a sudden,we couldn't compete anymore and our progression just stopped around the late 70's to 80's.When the civil rights movement,affirmative action,etc. hit,so did the decline of the white athlete.Now we are going backwards.There is no explanation that anyone can really give for this.What is your hypothesis?I'm guessing it's just that we can't compete for the most part other than the rare token sprinter.I don't believe that.Why are we having a revival in boxing.We are because of the sheer number of whites from Europe invading the sport.We need the same invasion in track from there and this country.If and when that ever happens,and we still can't compete,then I will tip my hat to you.We need more people like Coach Clyde Hart of Baylor who laughs at anyone who brings color into it!!The advantage is very minimal at best and vastly overexagerated due to lack of particpation by white sprinters.We need it to become popular like the X Games and then,only then will we see a turning of the tide.Edited by: white lightning

 

[speedster]

Yes,yes,yes.You are saying that testosterone is an advantage.You are saying whites can't compete.You are debating with futuregohan and jody.You are debating with someone who can't comprehend basic concepts,so why bother.

 

[White_Savage]

Some things I've noted...

The bodybuilder/powerlifter thing IS interesting. Look at some power-lifters, esp. those who compete below the unlimited weight class sometime. They look like rather muscular guys, but not hulkish at all.

Also, I've noticed blacks in the gym-and on the job-not being able to move the same weight that substantially smaller looking White guys can move. Its odd.

The thing about dark skin/white skin is spot on. When I watched that atrocious Black/White T.V. show, when they painted the black guys White, all the little cords and muscles on their arms that you could see disapeared. But show is more important than go.

This whole testorone thing...I'm not sure how or if it relates. Whites have the highest tendencies towards baldness, facial hair, and body hair in the world-and this is directly related to male hormones. I think a testosterone advantage would at most increase the speed with which you could build muscle, and would have little to do with the maximum level of strength you can build anatomically.

Black physical advantages seem to come together in sprinting more than any other sport, but geez, the gap between the fastest White time and the fastest black time in the hundred meters is only 2%. We can't make that up? To get a vaunted sub-10, only requires a White man to run a fraction faster than a White man ran in the 70s! Its absurd that we've gotten slower, not faster, in the last thirty years.

West African sprinters have ripped upper bodies because they take massive amounts of steroids, and are as vain as the average black male. Doesn't have much to do with sprinting, per se.

And J.D, yes, White Athletes take steroids too. Perhaps all of them at a certain level of competition. But you must be as certain as I am that Blacks are much more likely to engage in this sort of behavior. Blacks take illegal drugs in huge quantities for no reason at all other than the high...why wouldn't they be alot more likely to athletic-enhancing drugs as well? A White Athlete might take steroids to maintain a professional career or to gain one, but I'm sure many Blacks are "enhancing" their performance over Whites at the lowest levels of competition where you wouldn't think there would be steroid use.

 

[JD074]

That's not what I think.How would you know JD074?

Because you wrote what you think. You wrote that blacks have "way higher" levels of testosterone. That means that we're not "basically the same physically."

What is your hypothesis?I'm guessing it's just that we can't compete for the most part other than the rare token sprinter.

You don't have to guess. I already told you. We CAN compete, but blacks have advantages. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I don't believe that.Why are we having a revival in boxing.

Boxing is not sprinting.

We are because of the sheer number of whites from Europe invading the sport.

That's a great thing. Klitschko not having to outrun anybody helps, too.

The advantage is very minimal at best and vastly overexagerated due to lack of particpation by white sprinters.

I'd like to seem some hard evidence showing that male hormones have "very minimal" impact on athletic performance.

We need it to become popular like the X Games and then,only then will we see a turning of the tide.

Perhaps one reason why X Games has become so popular is because it doesn't require any sprinting. Same thing with Nascar and extreme sports. Chicken or the egg. Are blacks good at basketball and football because of their culture, or have those sports become a part of their culture because they are biologically suited for them? Hmm....

Edited by: JD074

 

[JD074]

Yes,yes,yes.You are saying that testosterone is an advantage.You are saying whites can't compete.

Nope.

You are debating with futuregohan and jody.You are debating with someone who can't comprehend basic concepts,so why bother.

Now that's a good point.

 

[JD074]

Some things I've noted...

The bodybuilder/powerlifter thing IS interesting.

Not as interesting as the difference between muscular, really fast, black 100m sprinters, and less muscular, less fast, white 100m sprinters. That's really what we're talking about here. Why are black sprinters so godd*mn muscular if it doesn't matter? And why go to BALCO (Montgomery) if it doesn't matter? And why fade into oblivion after you stop going to Balco if it doesn't matter? (Montgomery finished seventh at the Olympic Trials.) Sure, big muscles aren't absolutely necessary, at least for 400m and longer (Wariner.) But the black 100m guys (and gals!) are shredded, and it simply makes sense to believe that whatever they're doing, it's working.

Look at some power-lifters, esp. those who compete below the unlimited weight class sometime. They look like rather muscular guys, but not hulkish at all.

Well I don't know about powerlifting, but I saw some smaller Olympic lifters in the Olympics in '04, and they seemed pretty muscular to me. And that's explosive strength, at least somewhat more akin to sprinting than the "grinds" of powerlifting.

But, I must repeat, bodybuilders train for cosmetic purposes. I'm talking about the muscle you build WHILE you're training for a sport.

Also, I've noticed blacks in the gym-and on the job-not being able to move the same weight that substantially smaller looking White guys can move. Its odd.

If you want to elevate your performance, you have to train for performance.

This whole testorone thing...I'm not sure how or if it relates.

Well apparently none of us here are experts on the matter! I'd like to see some studies on the subject. Exactly what impact do male hormones have on athletic performance? I would think that it's substantial. So many of the most physically gifted athletes are very muscular: Michael Johnson, Lebron James, Terrell Owens, as a few examples.

Whites have the highest tendencies towards baldness, facial hair, and body hair in the world-and this is directly related to male hormones.

There seems to be quite a few black athletes who bald prematurely, like Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, and Karl Malone. Even Tiger Woods is balding, and he's a f*cking golfer and only part black!

I think a testosterone advantage would at most increase the speed with which you could build muscle, and would have little to do with the maximum level of strength you can build anatomically.

Sounds like pure speculation on your part.

Black physical advantages seem to come together in sprinting more than any other sport, but geez, the gap between the fastest White time and the fastest black time in the hundred meters is only 2%. We can't make that up?

Hopefully somebody will someday. Nesterenko has won Olympic gold on the women's side (Olympic success is what matters most.) Now we need a man to step it up.
Edited by: JD074

 

[white is right]

Most sprinters have an abundance of testosterone. My brother was a grammar school sprinter who won the city title and he could literally bounce of the walls back then. To this day he has hair trigger temper and spazzes out quickly....

 

[White_Savage]

JD:
I'm convinced that for some reason, blacks look more "ripped" and muscular in relation to a given level of performance than Whites. What are we to make of a White sprinter outrunning more "ripped" blacks if this is not the case. And I've seen many power-lifters, World's Strongest Man competitors, whose upper bodys didn't LOOK as ripped as some basketball or football players. But they're alot stronger.

Look old pictures of Marciano. He did not have a physique that would win him any body-building contests. But he hit a heck of a lot harder than bigger, more "ripped" looking boxers. Or Chuck Liddell in the modern era. Yeah, theres technique to hitting power, but in large part is about exerting power in accelerating your body mass into a target. And Whites seem to suffer from 0 disadvantage there.

 

[white lightning]

From some of the things I have read,part of it is because blacks of western african ancestry have more bone density,less body fat on average and thinner skin.
If anything,the less body fat to me would be the biggest advantage then again who knows.I have seen sprinters who carry alot of extra fat around the mid section(black guys)who could also run like the wind.It mostly comes down to good genetics & killing yourself with plyometrics,sprinting & weights.Most people don't realize that the key to ripped abs is diet.You can do thousands of situps/crunches a day,but if don't change your diet,your screwed.

I have a question for you JD074.If bodybuilders are ripped that are white,what makes you think that sprinters cannot be just as ripped and perform as well?
Have you ever looked at guys like Matt Shirvington,Ian Mackie,Matic Osovnikar,or even college kids like Stamer,or Trey Griffin?Tell me that these guys are not ripped just like the black sprinters.Also,look at a sprinter like Kim Collins,of St.Nevis.He has run a several sub 10's and he only weighs around 150lbs.This black guy is as skinny as they come.Speed is speed period!

 

[white is right]

Kim Collins won his world title the year that nobody could juice at the Worlds. That year all the times were flat in the 100. This was just after the Balco scandal and I don't think the top sprinters were able to get undetectable roids..........

 

[white lightning]

Look at a guy like S.Crawford who seems to be stuck in the mud after the Balco Scandal.He probably has to find a new source,if you know what I mean.Nobody knows for sure but damn has this guy went from the best to a average sprinter almost overnight.It makes you wonder.You can just tell by looking at how vascular these guys are.Compare a Natural Bodybuilding Contest to a Pro Bodybuilding Contest.It's only obvious that these guys are on the juice diet.lol.You can see the same thing with the sprinters.There are too many Ben Johnson look alikes!

 

[JD074]

JD:
I'm convinced that for some reason, blacks look more "ripped" and muscular in relation to a given level of performance than Whites. What are we to make of a White sprinter outrunning more "ripped" blacks if this is not the case.

That running is a skill and there are more aspects to it than just muscle mass. Same for all sports. That's why Calzaghe could humiliate an extremely muscular black fighter, or why Wariner could outrun much bigger black opponents. But that doesn't mean that muscle mass isn't an advantage.

And I've seen many power-lifters, World's Strongest Man competitors, whose upper bodys didn't LOOK as ripped as some basketball or football players. But they're alot stronger.

They train for their sport. It's the "law of specificity." A little more muscle mass could only help their performance. What do you think about the Olympic lifters?

 

[JD074]

From some of the things I have read,part of it is because blacks of western african ancestry have more bone density,less body fat on average and thinner skin.
If anything,the less body fat to me would be the biggest advantage then again who knows.

And why do they have lower body fat? You don't think hormones have anything to do with it?

Why do so many people get thinner during puberty? I know I did. I was a chubby kid. When I hit puberty I slimmed down A LOT. I even got pretty muscular at one point and I didn't even exercise that much. And my diet wasn't great either (hey, I was a teenager!) Then at around 18 years old or so, I started to pack on the weight again, my energy levels went down, etc. If all these changes weren't due to fluctuations in my hormone levels, I would be very surprised.

I have a question for you JD074.If bodybuilders are ripped that are white,what makes you think that sprinters cannot be just as ripped and perform as well?

Well, bodybuilders are juiced to the gills. But you yourself said that blacks have higher testosterone levels. Again, if hormones have nothing to do with muscle mass, I'd be very surprised. And, again, whites can perform well, ripped or not.

Have you ever looked at guys like Matt Shirvington,Ian Mackie,Matic Osovnikar,or even college kids like Stamer,or Trey Griffin?Tell me that these guys are not ripped just like the black sprinters.

I just did a Google Images search. I could only find one decent pic of Trey Griffin, he looked about medium build (I'm not sure if it was high school or college though.) Shirvo looked above average in one pic, but in others he looked relatively thin. Same with Mackie: above average in one pic, but in others he looked about average for an athlete. Osovnikar is downright skinny. And of course Stamer's big.

Edited by: JD074