There have been fast white sprinters.....

[JD074]

Look at a guy like S.Crawford who seems to be stuck in the mud after the Balco Scandal.He probably has to find a new source,if you know what I mean.Nobody knows for sure but damn has this guy went from the best to a average sprinter almost overnight.It makes you wonder.

It does make you wonder, doesn't it? And doesn't it prove my point? Why would these guys want to get bigger if it doesn't matter? Why does their performance fall off when they get clean? Why would Montgomery go to BALCO if all he needed to set a World Record was effort, heart, and determination? When Bonds saw what McGwire and Sosa did with 'roids, he decided to try it himself. He hit 73 homers in a season and has over 700 in his career, and much of that coming in his late 30's and early 40's.

If you guys were correct, athletes wouldn't need, or want, to take steroids. But if muscle mass is an advantage....

You can see the same thing with the sprinters.There are too many Ben Johnson look alikes!

Like it or not, it's working for them.

 

[white is right]

It's true a clean sprinter might not be a sub 10/20/44 sprinter. I feel sorry for sprinters from countries like Canada, Germany, England and others as there is no government help or the authorities don't look the other way when their athletes cheat. The US track authorities knew for years that their top sprinters were drug cheats but they did nothing. Sometimes I wonder if the 10.2 guy who is stuck at that level wouldn't be a champion if he could get his hands on roids........
Edited by: white is right

 

[white lightning]

I would have to say that currently,the US,& Jamaica are two of the worst countries when it comes to enforcing the drug policy.They just don't seem to care and will protect most of their athletes at all cost.Only the Balco Scandal caused them to throw a couple to the fire just to look like they care.WADA knows what is going on and is trying to get these countries to comply.

Can a sprinter go sub 10 totally clean?It's possible but highly unlikely.I would have to guess that at least 70-80% of these sprinters are on multiple illegal substances.You just don't look like that if your natural no matter how good your genetics may be.Edited by: white lightning

 

[White_Savage]

JD: All I can say is what I have observed. Calzaghe is obviously a "skill" boxer, but I specifically mentioned heavy hitters who don't appear massively built. Running a skill? Sure, every sport has its "know-how" component, but things like running and lifting are by definition more about the forces you can exert with your body and less about skill than are any other sports. Bottom line, when a White outruns a black he is accelrating his body mass faster. If he has more body-fat as baggage and more biomechanical leverage disadvantages (heavy calves, wider hips, shorter legs), and still outruns the guy, what does this tell us about the force he's exerting if he still manages to move faster?

As for strenth competitors in any discipline, I stand by my observation that they very rarely have the conformation of bodybuilders or even many black athletes in say football. Yet, they are stronger. You'll notice the most ripped looking guy doesn't always win in lifting, either.

I can't see what adding muscle mass in the arms, shoulders, and chest does for black sprinters either. Seems like it would just be extra-weight. So I stand by my theory that it's a combination of heavy steroid use and black vanity that makes some black runners look like they're trying to be body builders. I think Jervey might have been on to something with his blacks-respond-better-to-steroids theory though.

 

[white lightning]

I even have another angle on it.If we are not athletic enough on average,we could not be the best jumpers in the world.It takes primarily the same muscles as in sprinting.It's all about the fast twitch fiber makeup of your muscles.I guarantee that there are many whites with the genetic makeup to be elite sprinters.We just don't have the participation & may never have a equal playing field.How many whites in this country actually dream about being a Olympic Sprinter?We need a few role models from here to pave the way for the future generations.

 

[Guest]

I can't see what adding muscle mass in the arms, shoulders, and chest does for black sprinters either. Seems like it would just be extra-weight. So I stand by my theory that it's a combination of heavy steroid use and black vanity that makes some black runners look like they're trying to be body builders. I think Jervey might have been on to something with his blacks-respond-better-to-steroids theory though.

White sevage you clearly are not familiar with the black man's physique.

Seriously ,and i dont even mean to brag here, but ive never worked out a single day in my life(at least not heavy lifting) and im built like a body builder. And I can say the same about most of my black freinds, especially those from west africa (ghana, nigeria etc)

Of course ,if i were to ever compete as a professional sprinter, youd claim im on some type of drug....i call that jealousy

Edited by: McBride

 

[Guest]

I even have another angle on it.If we are not athletic enough on average,we could not be the best jumpers in the world.It takes primarily the same muscles as in sprinting.It's all about the fast twitch fiber makeup of your muscles.I guarantee that there are many whites with the genetic makeup to be elite sprinters.We just don't have the participation & may never have a equal playing field.How many whites in this country actually dream about being a Olympic Sprinter?We need a few role models from here to pave the way for the future generations.

geez guys, get over it.

white lightning you seem like a decent fella, why are you so obessed with the fact that blacks are on average more athletic than white??..Its nature, and you certainly cannot change that fact.

The only reason whites are better high jumpers is because that particular activity is of no interest to blacks. And that sport isnt all that fun either. You'll notice that blacks are more prone to participate at events that creates a "spectacle" of some sort (football, soccer, boxing, 100m dash, basketball etc) Name one popular sport beside hockey that blacks dont take charge in.

and most of you can make piece with your internal isues of inferiority by claiming taht every black man who ever ran sub 10 was on drugs,,but the truth of the matter is that, not only have black men ran sub ten, but we do so so frequently that it isnt even that big of a deal anymore. Besides most athletes are checked prior to participating in the olympics, and they are also checked during the olympics.

So as i said, just get over it. or

me a river

take care

 

[Guest]

Again I will bring into argument the sheer numbers of possible sprinters we have to choose from worldwide.Just in the United States alone I guarantee there are guys that could be just as good as Carl Lewis,Ato Boldon,Frankie Fredericks,Maurice Green & Justin Gatlin.
First off,we already know how many of these elite sprinters have been proven to be on performance enhancing drugs.Blacks makeup only approx 11% of the population here yet we dominate the sprints worldwide.Why is it that West Africa doesn't dominate the sprints?Two reasons,lack of coaching,money,and the special supplements that the americans all have.It is not a secret.Look at Balco.How many sprinters from here have been as big or bigger cheats than the old east german sprinters of the 60's.The US protects their athletes at all cause.Col.Callan has even given countless examples of coverups in this country.Now with our white population,probably as big or bigger than any other nation,you cannot tell me that we would not be able to find 5 or 10 guys at the least to be elite sprinters.Most of these guys never even step on a track.It's not all about color.Is Jeremy Wariner and Andrew Rock from Mars or something?They are white as can be and the best in the world.You will see some white sprinters from here in the very near future.You can only keep the white man down for so long.Go ahead and laugh if you want.Just remember who told you what will eventually happen.I just want to see the look on everyones faces in this country & the world when a white guy is the fastest man on the planet!!

white lightining, i was actually on my way to school, but i'll give you some barbequed meat for thought before doing so.

First of all, you mentioned in your essay that west africans dont dominate in track and field?. HAH, i wont even have to debunk that tripe ,becuase you clearly dont know what youre talking about. I suggest you watch the ALL AFRICA GAMES.

Patric Obikwelu is from west africa
Aziz Zakari is also from west africa

just to name a few

 

[guest301]

Hit and run troll. What would we do without them?

 

[KG2422]

That physique must make your head look really small.

 

[SteveB]

The only reason whites are better high jumpers is because that particular activity is of no interest to blacks. And that sport isnt all that fun either.

Maybe blacks don't have the athletic ability to compete in the HJ.

You'll notice that blacks are more prone to participate at events that creates a "spectacle" of some sort (football, soccer, boxing, 100m dash, basketball etc) Name one popular sport beside hockey that blacks dont take charge in.

Blacks hardly dominate soccer. Look at the last 20 years of the World Cup and see how many African teams have won it. Blacks are barely hanging on in boxing. Other big time sports where blacks AREN'T dominant: baseball, tennis, MMA, Auto racing, any Olympic sport other than the 100m or 200m, golf, and on and on. BTW, if you don't think that Auto racing is a big time sport, look at the list of highest paid athletes, it's dominated by F1 and NASCAR guys. If blacks are the supreme beings that you say, why aren't they trying to make a $100 million a year in F1 racing like Michael Schumacher.Edited by: SteveB

 

[SteveB]

Besides most athletes are checked prior to participating in the olympics, and they are also checked during the olympics.

Why are we suspicious? Hmm, let's see Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, Kelli White: all top black sprinters busted for drug use. I also heard that there are more sprinters implicated in the new book about the BALCO case. To be continued....Edited by: SteveB

 

[white is right]

Umm Carl Lewis had a cold.........

Has he come out of the closet yet..........

 

[guest301]

I think he came out of the closet years ago but it's not like we all didn't know

 

[JD074]

JD: All I can say is what I have observed. Calzaghe is obviously a "skill" boxer, but I specifically mentioned heavy hitters who don't appear massively built.

You're right. Perhaps one simply doesn't need the same kind of "force" or "power" to hit hard than to run a sub-10 100m dash.

Running a skill? Sure, every sport has its "know-how" component, but things like running and lifting are by definition more about the forces you can exert with your body and less about skill than are any other sports. Bottom line, when a White outruns a black he is accelrating his body mass faster. If he has more body-fat as baggage and more biomechanical leverage disadvantages (heavy calves, wider hips, shorter legs), and still outruns the guy, what does this tell us about the force he's exerting if he still manages to move faster?

But how often does that happen? Have you observed successful white sprinters who have those disadvantages? As far as body fat goes, Wariner could never be accused of having too much of it! But the more important point is that you are stating that whites have certain disadvantages, which means that blacks have certain advantages, which has been my point all along!

Whether it's male hormones or the things you just listed, an advantage is an advantage.

I can't see what adding muscle mass in the arms, shoulders, and chest does for black sprinters either.

I haven't read that much about the strength training goals of sprinters, but I have heard the "experts" say that sprinters need strong triceps.

Seems like it would just be extra-weight. So I stand by my theory that it's a combination of heavy steroid use and black vanity that makes some black runners look like they're trying to be body builders. I think Jervey might have been on to something with his blacks-respond-better-to-steroids theory though.

And why would they take steroids in the first place if muscles mass doesn't matter that much?Also, are you sure that all of these black athletes are simply vain? Or is it that they are so good at building muscle that they do so even if they aren't trying to?

 

[Guest]

I noticed this thread here is buzzing (plus, my "latitude factor" regarding 'roids theory was mentioned earlier) so I thought I'd add a couple points, if you don't mind me Trolling:

As "white lighting" has pointed out repeatedly in other threads, plenty of ethnically non-West African sprinters show elite speed in the shorter indoor races...50-60m, etc (that Hungarian guy from a few years ago comes to mind.)

Further, non-Black sprinters seem to "lock-up" around about the 60-70m mark. Of course this is subjective...we're usually observing one or two White or Asian sprinters in fields of 6 or 7 Blacks. From what I can see when observing these races, is long-limbed morphologies gliding through the deceleration phases more efficiently than shorter-limbed, larger-trunked opponents (which is exactly what you'd expect, given the kinesiology...) Of course, exceptions exist (Jesse Owens, Maurice Green) but they hardly contradict.

Most empirical, field and anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that ethnic inequity in sports performance is substantially less pronounced, or nearly absent, when reducing for acts of plain "explosiveness." The most far-out numbers in vertical jumping, for example show Whites and Asians putting up similar numbers to elite Sub-Saharan West African "Black" leapers...at least the ones that are out on the periphery of their respective bell-curves. Power-lifting, throwing stuff, kicking balls, standing vertical leaps, arm-wrestling etc...same sort of thing.

The commonality here is complexity of the tasks... It seems like when dealing with simpler, "one-lever" or "two-lever" tasks advantage is either nil, or reduced to negligable. It's when tasks become multi-disciplinary, so to speak, that tiny advantages in multiple levers seem to multiply into 5% advantages on the fields of play. Or in the case of wrestling or powerlifting, in the opposite direction (where short limbs can be decidedly advantageous.)

My steroid theory stands, IMO, in this case as well. We see the same changes in athletes' physiques around about the same time we see changes in athletes' complexions. I'd say this is almost certainly common knowledge in elite pharmaceutical-training circles.

 

[White_Savage]

JD: All I can say is what I have observed. Calzaghe is obviously a "skill" boxer, but I specifically mentioned heavy hitters who don't appear massively built.
You're right. Perhaps one simply doesn't need the same kind of "force" or "power" to hit hard than to run a sub-10 100m dash.

JDO74: Well, obviously the former is more about the muscularity of the upper body and the latter is more about the legs. (I know a punch "starts from the floor" but the strength of the torso and other links in the chain is the limiting factor on how much of your lower body's power can actually be transmitted to the end of the punch.)



"As far as body fat goes, Wariner could never be accused of having too much of it! But the more important point is that you are stating that whites have certain disadvantages, which means that blacks have certain advantages, which has been my point all along!

Whether it's male hormones or the things you just listed, an advantage is an advantage."

I have no problem admitting that many biomechanical factors intersect to give blacks the world's best sprinting ability. But many of these same factors give whites ADVANTAGES in other athletic activities, and it's not a matter of blacks having more muscular strength than Whites, since lifting and throwing activities are as White dominated as sprinting is Black dominated.

As for my observation that Whites actually seem to exert more strength for a given appearance of muscularity, take into account that Canadian study I posted awhile back. It compared blacks and white adults, but the scientists themselves said it was flawed because the whites in the study were more sedentary, mostly smaller, and had less lean muscle mass than the blacks. Despite this, the Whites were able to move greater weight in the bench-press.

[

Seems like it would just be extra-weight. So I stand by my theory that it's a combination of heavy steroid use and black vanity that makes some black runners look like they're trying to be body builders. I think Jervey might have been on to something with his blacks-respond-better-to-steroids theory though

And why would they take steroids in the first place if muscles mass doesn't matter that much?Also, are you sure that all of these black athletes are simply vain? Or is it that they are so good at building muscle that they do so even if they aren't trying to?

No no, the gains they get in the LOWER body for steroid usage do alot for them. And if you think a black male, any black male, won't lift weights to have a nice "bar body" for chasing tail, you don't know their psychology. I have rarely known a black that didn't lift weights, and when asked, almost all of them will straight up tell you they do it to look impressive for chicks.Edited by: White_Savage

 

[SteveB]

Jervey, you make some good points and I pretty much agree with your assessment. I think what myself and White Lightning are preaching here is white participation in track. I believe that there are white kids out there that have the physical tools to be elite 100m sprinters, but for whatever reason they aren't running track at a young age. You all need to go attend an AAU meet and take a look around. You would be hard pressed to find a handful of white kids participating. While the white kids are playing soccer, little league, gymnastics, or swim team, the black kids are running track or playing basketball. Very few elite athletes in any sport enter those sports late in their teenage years. They start developing those skills at a young age.

As far as upper body strength in sprinting, it is important in holding running form late in the sprint. As the body struggles to maintain top speed, running form breaks down, and a strong upper body helps to maintain form. I'm not talking about weightlifter strength as much as endurance strength, like doing a 100 pushups.

 

[white lightning]

Ok,I'm finally home from a long day at work and what a discussion I have missed.It's quite ironic that me and SteveB,and Colonel Callan are some of the few to not believe in the myth of blacks being the worlds greatest sprinters.I'm not arguing the sucess that they have had but I'm trying to point out as to some of the reasons for this.

If testosterone levels,longer legs,shorter trunks,less body fat,thinner skin,etc, were the only factors,then why did whites compete on a equal basis for half a century?How did we break and hold world records in the 100 and 200 meters up into the 60's to 70's.Do you guys know how long Mennea held the world record in the 200?
Almost two decades!!Why can some guys with a typical white(caucasion)build hold world records that could possibly never be broken!Look at Michael Johnson.He had the shortest legs and the longest torso.He ran like he was wearing a back brace(straight up & stiff).It's been said that he is built and ran like a typical European.He holds the world record to this day in the 200 & 400 meters!Are you guys listening?How is this possible?He is built like a white sprinter!lol.Even Michael Johnson has wrote articles about the myth of blacks being the best sprinters.We have posted them here!!He has said that whites need role models in sprinting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why can even a black man,world record sprinter,and track expert understand and you guys can't?I'm not going to try to force you guys to believe anything.I'm just trying to get you guys to realize that there is alot more to it than meets the eye.

As for McBride,your an idiot!I guarantee you that there are just as many buff/muscular whites as blacks.Actually,there are more.You guys don't have the numbers we do!We are quite simply the best athletes in the world.We dominate more sports than any other race.What are you going to do when we do the same in track in the future?Keep on believing that whites can't sprint,jump,dance or whatever.Ha.ha.ha.

 

[Guest]

Lightning, I don't know that bringing up Mennea's dubious, high-altitude Mexico city time is especially instructive here, but your point is taken well enough. The guy was a beast and had a long, prolific career, despite his "disadvantageous" phenotypes. There's no reason, aside from popular psychology, that there shouldn't be more of his kind competing today. Besides, I'm happy to see you present my Swarthy Caucasoid brother as a paragon of athletic performance!

PETE DOIN' IT ITALIAN STYLE!

I just think your point would be better served without the "up with Whites" rants. That sort of stuff really doesn't help Junior Johnny Track star, anyhow, IMO. They perform out of personal pride...not racial arrogance.

We're both fans of T&F (a dying breed) and I think we can agree the state of the product on the field as having less-than-ideal market appeal. The various T&F feds could really stand to take a page from the NBA's recent diversity efforts. I always followed athletics, but I must admit, it is hard watching the same people dominate the same events every year...whether Kenyan milers, West African sprinters or Eastern European shot putters. I was rooting for Liu Xiang; no more or less so when he beat the Latvian or Swedish hurdlers.

Very few elite athletes in any sport enter those sports late in their teenage years. They start developing those skills at a young age.

That's kind of the bottle-neck isn't it? Most especially when some groups mature years before others.Edited by: JerveyGotGypped

 

[white lightning]

Some good points.That is a great picture of Mennea.It's just so hard to understand how we could go backwards in performance.I know humans are always getting faster and stronger.Track as you said just doesn't seem to hold the general publics interest.Especially the whites in America.We can't seem to fill up many stadiums unless it's the Olympics.I hope to see a resurgence both here and around the world.They need to market the sport alot better.I think that they should try holding concerts at after some of the track meets.It would bring more young people to the meets and eventually they would be hooked on this great sport.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Colonel Callan: where the hell are you? That's a piece worth saving, very knowledgeable. You should post more of that stuff.
It is the sort of phenomenon that you always knew was true based on empirical evidence.
-How could it be that the Eastern Block countries could produce so many track stars, both male and female, and yet the U.S., with all its athletic genius, facilities, and funding, could not produce almost any white track stars in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the U.S. population is white. It just did not add up. Whites in the U.S. are no different racially that whites in Europe. Why would they be, they came from Europe! The Eastern Europeans don't face caste discrimination, why would they in their own countries? But remember the cold war? I do have to say that many in the U.S. media past off all that Societ track success to drugs, blatanly ignoring their own drug maestros. The pricks, why they used to say the East German female track team were likely all male eunichs.
-Sports broadcasters are full of bullcrap and/or they fear they will loose their jobs if they make these kinds of observations that Colonel Callan makes here.
-In Canada there is Macrozonaris. The first white man to crack the speed of sound (10 ).He ran a 9.97.

And you know where they can shove that 2mph wind! He ran that at 165-170lbs. What could he do beefed up like old yellow eyes Ben Johnson. He's a Greek French-Canadian so he's proud; he's Orthodox so he's too much of a gentleman to complain and tell you the truth about what he had to go through to get where he is today.
If you really want some good sport, I mean something that makes you want to buy everyone at the bar a beer, look very closely at the faces of the black athletes that loose to Macrozonaris, Wariner, and the rest. And after you have had the best laugh in a long time try not to use it all up because then try looking at the shame on the white coaches of those black runners.

 

[JD074]

JDO74: Well, obviously the former is more about the muscularity of the upper body and the latter is more about the legs.

Yeah, and it does beg the question about lower body strength among black athletes. We all know about their glutes... I know we make jokes about it, but the glutes are very strong, and underrated, muscles. Many people now feel that speed has more to do with the big leg muscles than the calves and the rest of the lower leg. That doesn't imply that light calves and the way everything is "connected" down there are meaningless. But those big muscles are the motor of the body, so to speak.

No no, the gains they get in the LOWER body for steroid usage do alot for them.

Okay.

 

[Maple Leaf]

JDO74: Well, obviously the former is more about the muscularity of the upper body and the latter is more about the legs.

Yeah, and it does beg the question about lower body strength among black athletes. We all know about their glutes... I know we make jokes about it, but the glutes are very strong, and underrated, muscles. Many people now feel that speed has more to do with the big leg muscles than the calves and the rest of the lower leg. That doesn't imply that light calves and the way everything is "connected" down there are meaningless. But those big muscles are the motor of the body, so to speak.

No no, the gains they get in the LOWER body for steroid usage do alot for them.

Okay.

Gentlemen, this talk about legs and stereotypical blacks does not a fast runner make. See for yourselves: Jessie Owens and Carl Lewis were skinny guys with skinny legs compared to many. And they won during their respective times. For every muscular black you find you may find 2 that are skinny as a rail.
Blacks and whites both have many different body types. Whites perhaps more than blacks have more variety of physiques. But physiques alone do not a fast man make.Edited by: Maple Leaf

 

[white lightning]

Finally someone who gets it.Thanks for the help Maple Leaf.I can tell that you know sprinting very well.Please keep up all of the great input.Sometimes it gets frustrating when everyone just assumes that whites can't compete.I totally disagree with that assumption.What is happening over in England with their veteran sprinters is a joke.The good thing is that Craig Pickering and a few others are ready to join the elite soon.It will be a changing of the guard so to speak.I see Pickering being even better than the Great Allan Wells in the long run!