300/Christianity Debate

[screamingeagle]

To captain Poop:
The veterns I have talked to have not fought with Isreals. They met them through exchange programs. We have guests from England, canada, Australia, Germany, ect., and we send people to these contries. Nations send their military personnal to other nations to observe. They may train with them or just conpare notes. This has been going on for a long time Julius Caesar once was an observer with a king in Asia minor. The perpose of these exchanges is to build bonds of friendship. I wonder if this actually works. Huns and Goths had personnal working with the Romans. It just seems that all the Huns and goths did was to learn how to defeat Rome.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Since we are all basically anonymous, I'm not sure what caliber of warriors we all are here or who would fight to the death.

Well, I'm not skilled in the art of hand to hand combat, but I am a very good shot and I have a lot of guns. The bottom line is, if they come after me, they better bring a lot of help because I'm not going out until all my bullets have been spent and they get the better of me.

 

[DixieDestroyer]

Since we are all basically anonymous, I'm not sure what caliber of warriors we all are here or who would fight to the death.

Well, I'm not skilled in the art of hand to hand combat, but I am a very good shot and I have a lot of guns. The bottom line is, if they come after me, they better bring a lot of help because I'm not going out until all my bullets have been spent and they get the better of me.

Why I don't consider myself a bad@$$....I can handle myself pretty well (armed or unarmed). I also stay "well heeled" and wouldn't hessitate to bust a cap if anyone threatened my family in any way. I'm not as quick to start throwing hands as I was 11-12 years ago (pre-kids/wife), BUT like the Duke said...."I won't be disrespected or laid a hand on"!

 

[Solomon Kane]

Shogun, you're right--"flee to the mountains" is more of a warning than a moral "command".

Still, there are St. Paul's admonitions: "Fear and Reverence the Emperor" as well as his assertion that he "who resisteth the authorities draws down upon himself the anger of God" . I'll have to check the exact location of these quotes.

Of course these general principles are modified by the notion that we must always "obey God rather than man", so when there is a oonflict between the State and God, we know where to side.

You're right guest301--Jesus was not a pacifist. See His flogging of the moneychangers at the temple; or the scene in the Garden of Gethesemani: Peter: "Lord here are two swords". Jesus: "It is enough!"

Traditionally the "two swords" implies that one sword is the sword of spiritual punishments (excommunication,interdict, etc.) and the other the sword of physical punishment (to be drawn at the command of Christ (and his representative Peter) but *wielded by the Christian soldier*.

Also, Jesus was well disposed toward Roman soldiers (see the Centurion with the sick servant at Caparnaum, the Centurion who was converted at the Crucifixion, and the Centurion Cornelius in the Acts of the Apostles).

 

[White Shogun]

Oh, the irony in playing the "Devil's Advocate" in a discussion about Jesus and non-violence:

The "Jesus was a pacifist" crowd will point out that Jesus rebuked Peter for using one of those two swords in the garden, when he chopped off the ear of the servant of the chief priest. Jesus had the disciples bring the sword only to show the futility of resistance: "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Not only that, Jesus informed the crowd that, if he desired, he could bring down legions of angels to slay his enemies. What good is a sword then, unless to teach the lesson that one is not to resort to violence?

Jesus was well-disposed to anyone who believed in him, including tax collectors, prostitutes, Pharisees, thieves, etc. It is not surprising that he would also find value in soldiers - even Roman ones. Further, Paul admonishes new believers to 'remain as they are' when they come to Christ, whether slave or free, married, unmarried, and so on. This has been interpreted to mean that if you are a soldier - remain a soldier; a government official; a politician, or in whatever situation you find yourself when you heed Christ's call.

On the other hand, traditional Christianity posits that God is the same today, yesterday, and forever: Therefore even a cursory reading of the Old Testament would prove that God allows war and self-defense.

 

[guest301]

Ditto to the last two excellent posts. Christian also often get hit by the pacifists with the scripture verse that says"when someone smites the on the cheek, turn the other one". Smite the cheekin Hebrew means personal insult and has nothing to do with physical violence or self-defence. Solomon,I often use the example you pointed out in your post about Jesus using a whip to drive out the money changers from his temple. Kinda defeats their whole arguement, doesn't it.

 

[Bart]

Smite the cheekin Hebrew means personal insult and has nothing to do with physical violence or self-defence. Solomon,I often use the example you pointed out in your post about Jesus using a whip to drive out the money changers from his temple. Kinda defeats their whole arguement, doesn't it.

It has been said that anything can be proved from the bible.I suppose that is true. People can pick and choose verses they agree with and discard those thatare not inlinewith their position. Also, many scripturers are taken out of context. Most Christian scholarsbelieve that Jesus and his followers were pacifists. Many, many more proof texts can be cited in support than those opposed. All the apostles apparently were willingly martyred.The early Christians were often despoiled of their homes, possessions and lives as lambs led to the slaughter.


Check out the context of the verse of which Aragorn is speaking The word -smite- is often used to denote physical force as in slapping, hitting or striking someone. It is also the same word used in the Greek text when describing the beating of Jesus during the crucifixion.


Matt. 5:39 through 47.


Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:


But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.


And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.


Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away


Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.


But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 

[White Shogun]

Solomon,I often use the example you pointed out in your post about Jesus using a whip to drive out the money changers from his temple. Kinda defeats their whole arguement, doesn't it.

Not really, as my post showed. Jesus wasn't fighting or defending himself in the temple, he was kicking over tables and lashing out at people. Some might say disturbing the peace. The difference is, he was Jesus Christ. He threw the money changers out of the temple because they were an abomination to God, not because they were attacking anyone with arms. You never read of an account of Peter, Paul or any of the apostles ever lifting a hand to anyone after the incident in the garden when Peter cut off the ear of the servant.

Excellent quote by Bart proving that Christians were pacifists. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way. Kinda defeats their whole argument, doesn't it?

 

[guest301]

The early disciples and followers of Christ were more concerned with building up the early church than any kind of revolution or rebellion against Roman authorities, As I stated before, Israel was still in the state of being punished by God for her rejection of God and the laws he had given them. So why rebel and overthrow the Romans when God was using them to discipline the Jewish nation.
I read the passages sited above but those passages refer more to the future kingdom of God when Jesus is ruling during the millenium from Jerusalem. Why did Jesus tell his disciples to carry swords with them when he sent them off to a nearby village in the Gospel of Luke? I also think the context they are written in as well as the times should be taking into account as well.
Shogun you say that christians are suppossed to be pacifists but I see no evidence that you really believe and/or practice that from your posts. You are one of the biggest MMA fans here, you hate what our goverment is doing and you don't seem the non-confrontational type at all. I just don't believe that Christians lose their manhood when they get saved nor are they suppossed to be doormats to the rest of the world. I also think that if you are being persecuted and physically attacked specifically because you are a christian, maybe then you turn the other cheek, but if it's just a random act of violence or it's because you are white, rich, an American or any other reason, it's ok to defend yourself. Shogun, would you have fought in the American revolution and overthrew the British, or was that wrong? Anyways,there are much more learned Christians than me that can debate my side of this issue, so feel free to post if you have something to add to this. Edited by: guest301

 

[guest301]

Exodus 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in and he is so struck that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.... Make no mistake God is not a pacifist, EZ. 14.21 Deut 32 39-43... nor is Jesus a pacifist...Matt 21 12-13, Luke 22:36 Rev 14 19-20, Rev 19 11-16.... nor is the Bible a pacifist document Judges 3:2 and Psalm 144 1-2.
There is a excellent article fully explaining my view and other Christians who don't buy into the pacifist arguements posted above. Go to Yahoo and look for the article titled "are christians called to pacifism" by Brian Knowles. Shogun, I hope you didn't take my earlier post personal, it was some sincere questioning of your viewpoint and nothing else.

Edited by: guest301

 

[Triad]

I hate to be the one to momentarily get back on topic; but, the movie 300 just crossed over the $200 million dollar barrier last weekend. This is even more remarkable since it carries an R rating and countless teenagers bought tickets for one movie and snuck in to see 300.

 

[Bart]

Make no mistake God is not a pacifist, EZ. 14.21 Deut 32 39-43... nor is Jesus a pacifist...Matt 21 12-13, Luke 22:36

Aragorn,your basic problem is that you don't understand basic Christianity. The Old Testament and the New are not compatible. They mix together like oil and water. Go back and read the verses I provided.Jesus came to show his disciples a better way. Why do you think the Jews conspired to kill him?You can't put new wine into old wineskins. He came to establish a new and better covenant not based on animal sacrifices and an eye for an eye.Go back and read those verses I provided. Did Jesus ever condone or authorize his disciples to use violence or kill people? The entire New Testament chronicles story after story of the disciples and early followers being persecuted,beaten and killed. I don't remember Paul or Peteror Silas organizing a group of believers after a bible study to go out and kick some ass, do you?


You once again cite that referenceof buying a sword.Some commentators claim that Jesus told them to buy a sword or knife or sorts to fulfill an OT prophetic scripture in Isiah. Whatever the reason, he certainly didn't sanction using it to harm anyone.If God is or is not a pacifist doesn't answer the question of howChristians are to live in accordance to his rules and injunctions.


Matt. 26:51


And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.


Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.


Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


Rom.12:19.


Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


For the first 300 years of Christianity, they were definitely non violent pacifists.


[url]http://www.koinoniapartners.org/activist/essay/historicalevi dence.html[/url]


<TT>THE EARLY CHRISTIANS AND WAR</TT>
<TT>The early church took the teachings of Jesus and the apostles very seriously. They knew full well that following Jesus meant a complete refusal to participate in war. The overwhelming testimony of the early Church reveals the fact that Christians were pacifists from the very beginning. To choose Jesus was to reject war. Origen said that Christians "do not go forth as soldiers". Tertullian wrote, "only without the sword can the Christian wage war: for the Lord has abolished the sword." Yale church historian Roland Bainton writes, "From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army. All of the East and West repudiated participation in warfare for Christians." Guy F. Hershberger wrote, "It is quite clear that prior to about AD 174 it is impossible to speak of Christian soldiers." None of the Christian leaders in the pre-Constantinian era (313 AD) approved of a military career for disciples of Jesus. Only after the Church was influenced by the Roman State, in gradual degrees of corruption, did theologians begin formulating the "just war theory." The primitive Christians not only refused to enlist in the army, but when any embraced Christianity while already enlisted, they abandoned military involvement at whatever cost. Hippolytus said that soldiers who became Christians were not allowed to kill and must refuse to obey orders to kill.</TT>

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I don't remember Paul or Peteror Silas organizing a group of believers after a bible study to go out and kick some ass, do you?

Bart, I'm glad I came back to this thread, because I needed a good laugh, and true to your usual self, you provided it! Thanks.

 

[White Shogun]

Shogun you say that christians are suppossed to be pacifists but I see no evidence that you really believe and/or practice that from your posts. You are one of the biggest MMA fans here, you hate what our goverment is doing and you don't seem the non-confrontational type at all. I just don't believe that Christians lose their manhood when they get saved nor are they suppossed to be doormats to the rest of the world. I also think that if you are being persecuted and physically attacked specifically because you are a christian, maybe then you turn the other cheek, but if it's just a random act of violence or it's because you are white, rich, an American or any other reason, it's ok to defend yourself. Shogun, would you have fought in the American revolution and overthrew the British, or was that wrong?

You're right, no one has ever considered me non-confrontational, that's for sure!

I believe the preponderance of the scriptural evidence supports the idea that Christians should be pacifists. Having said that, I do not think it is an issue that would keep one from being a Christian, either. I hold that there are many such issues and doctrines that one opinion or the other do not make one an 'unbeliever.' Other such issues to me are keeping the Sabbath, believing in the Rapture, divorce, vegetarianism, drinking alcohol, etc, etc. This would be a long, winding post and thread if we were to go into this in any detail. PM me if you'd like to know more.

And yes, I would have fought in the American revolution, despite the face that the Bible says governments are appointed by God.

 

[guest301]

Bart it is amazing to me that a non-christian such as yourself tells me that I don't understand the basic tenets of my faith or the difference between the old and new testaments. I understand it just fine, you just don't agree with my particular beliefs. I again refer you to the article wriiten by Brian Knowles entitled "are christians called to pacifism" on Yahoo. He uses scripture just like you did Bart to prove his and my postion on this issue. I gave scripture to you in a earlier post to explain my position. I literally don't have the internet time to go on a point by point scripture study with you on this. You have your view and I have mine. Why do you care anyway? Do you want christians to be pacifists? How would that serve the interests of white people or even caste football?

 

[Bart]

Bart it is amazing to me that a non-christian such as yourself tells me that I don't understand the basic tenets of my faith or the difference between the old and new testaments.

I spent decades of my life with my nose pressed between the pages of bibles, concordances, commentaries and Greek-Hebrew-English lexicons.I was as rabid a believer as anyone.And yes, I maintain that you do not understand basic Christianity. The Old and New Testaments or Covenants do not jive. Read the quotes attributed to Jesus again and try to reconcile them with the OT-- it's impossible to do so withoutappearingfoolish.


I checked the the link you provided and read the article. Do you realize the writer quotes extensively from the OT and uses but a few quotes from the New? Do you know why? I'll tell you. If he limited his sources to the New Testament and in particular to what Jesus said, he'd have virtually nothing to support his case.


Over the centuries, Christianity has assumed many faces and forms. People can believe what they want, no problem. My point is that theologians, writers and historians agree that for hundreds of years after the advent of Christ, the church practiced, preached and promoted pacifism.


Quote from the article: Jewish law also understood the right to self-defense to include the prevention of one's own murder: "If someone comes to murder you, anticipate him and kill him first" (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a).


Ha ha! That guy quotes from the Talmud!Duh. Somehow, it doesn't sound like something Jesus ever said. Could he possibly have an ulterior motive?


He closes with : There is no Biblical reason why a Christian cannot serve in the military and defend his country against those who attack it. David Bivin, quoted earlier, is a Christian who has served in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). The IDF includes a substantial number of Christians who willingly defend Israel, which is now their chosen homeland. This is in no way contrary to our Messiah's teaching.

 

[White Shogun]

Bart it is amazing to me that a non-christian such as yourself tells me that I don't understand the basic tenets of my faith or the difference between the old and new testaments. I understand it just fine, you just don't agree with my particular beliefs. I again refer you to the article wriiten by Brian Knowles entitled "are christians called to pacifism" on Yahoo. He uses scripture just like you did Bart to prove his and my postion on this issue. I gave scripture to you in a earlier post to explain my position. I literally don't have the internet time to go on a point by point scripture study with you on this. You have your view and I have mine. Why do you care anyway? Do you want christians to be pacifists? How would that serve the interests of white people or even caste football?

I'm going to switch a few names and points in your post, and see where it takes us:

guest301, it is amazing to me that you call yourself a Christian and do not understand the basic tenets of the faith or the difference between the Old and New Testaments. You just don't agree with my particular beliefs. Bart and I have used scripture just like you and Brian Knowles did to prove our point on this issue. I gave scripture in an earlier post to explain my position. Why do you care anyway? Do you want Christians to be known as murderers and warmongers? Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. </font>

This is exactly what I tried to explain earlier. Neither this issue nor many others that divide the church today determine who or who isn't a Christian. Just because a person doesn't agree with you on a particular issue does not mean they are not Christian.

And a word of caution: I think you are barking at the wrong dog if you want to argue Scripture with Bart. Just my opinion.

 

[Bart]

Neither this issue nor many others that divide the church today determine who or who isn't a Christian. Just because a person doesn't agree with you on a particular issue does not mean they are not Christian.

I agree with you Shogun. I don't want to give a false impression. There was a time in my life I would have been considered a Christian and a pacifist. I''m not a Christian in the classical sense and definitely not a pacifist any longer.

 

[jaxvid]

Where's White Savage at? Don't these Christian discussion threads bring him out of Valhalla or where ever he hides out just so he can go off on guest301?

BTW aren't mass killings a good thing from a Christian perspective? All of those people removed from this "veil of tears" due to the will of God and moved onto their eternal reward. I thought that was a GOOD thing? What is it Christians? Good to finally go to meet God or better to stay on this devil infested planet of sin and temptation?

 

[Colonel_Reb]

If they are Christians, yes. If they aren't, no.


Good point about White Savage though. He seems to burrow himself away, kind of like Jervey does. I'd rather hang around and try to contribute all the time, but thats just me.

 

[Bart]

Where's White Savage at? Don't these Christian discussion threads bring him out of Valhalla or where ever he hides out just so he can go off on guest301?

White Savage posted in the Tiki Barber tribute threadrecently. He related the story of a compassionate Jap fighter pilot who mercifully spared the lives of passengers on a plane thatwerefrantically wavingat him.The next dayin Virginia a South Korean went postal and shot half a hundred people. What is the lesson here?Wave at slant-eyed yellow people who have you in their sights-- you may be spared.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I read that post, which was the first from him in quite a while, still, it was a good post.

 

[Bart]

I read that post, which was the first from him in quite a while, still, it was a good post.

His posts are thought provoking.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I'd agree with that most of the time, Bart. If we could just get some intellectual giants like him and a few others on this board to write a book about anti-white discrimination, then we will have made a lasting contribution.

 

[guest301]

Bart it is amazing to me that a non-christian such as yourself tells me that I don't understand the basic tenets of my faith or the difference between the old and new testaments. I understand it just fine, you just don't agree with my particular beliefs. I again refer you to the article wriiten by Brian Knowles entitled "are christians called to pacifism" on Yahoo. He uses scripture just like you did Bart to prove his and my postion on this issue. I gave scripture to you in a earlier post to explain my position. I literally don't have the internet time to go on a point by point scripture study with you on this. You have your view and I have mine. Why do you care anyway? Do you want christians to be pacifists? How would that serve the interests of white people or even caste football?

I'm going to switch a few names and points in your post, and see where it takes us:

guest301, it is amazing to me that you call yourself a Christian and do not understand the basic tenets of the faith or the difference between the Old and New Testaments. You just don't agree with my particular beliefs. Bart and I have used scripture just like you and Brian Knowles did to prove our point on this issue. I gave scripture in an earlier post to explain my position. Why do you care anyway? Do you want Christians to be known as murderers and warmongers? Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. </font>

This is exactly what I tried to explain earlier. Neither this issue nor many others that divide the church today determine who or who isn't a Christian. Just because a person doesn't agree with you on a particular issue does not mean they are not Christian.

And a word of caution: I think you are barking at the wrong dog if you want to argue Scripture with Bart. Just my opinion.

You have misunderstood my posts, Shogun. I never said that Christian pacifists were not Christians, I just said they were in error, That's all. The statement I made that Bart was a unbeliever was based on the fact that he said he was. I am just learning now about his background in the faith, if he has posted on that in the past, I either missed it or forgot about it.
Bart, I believe in "once saved, always saved"(my Baptist background) so if as you say you were a believer once, guess what you still are. Just my opinion. Congratulations!

As far as your comment goes about the Brian Knowles article on "christian pacifism" that I referred you to, you will automatically discount any thing that is even remotely Pro-Israel. He used New and Old Testament scripture to make his point and he made his point well. It sounds like you have turned back on your faith in large part because of what you percieve to be a call to christian pacifism, I encourage you to look more at all sides of the issue. I used to believe in legalism and christian pacifism as well in my late teens and early twenties and it kept me up many a night trying to apply that doctrine to the way I was living my life. I prayed about it and studied it alot and fortunately for me a Godly christian brother came along and educated me and released me from the incredible burden and error I was under and I am never going to fall back into it. This is why you are so disgusted with large parts of christianity Bart, it's because you really believe the Bible says we are supposed to be wimps and doormats to the rest of the world to be holy.It's not true but I give up on trying to convince you or anybody else.
So to those of you who are Christian pacifists, that's fine for you. If you end up in a prison cell someday and Big ol black Bubba wants you to bend over for him..go right ahead..I'm going to stick a shank up Big Bubba's ass and stand before the throne of God proudly for doing so.

Speaking of White Savage, he has said often in past posts that Christian pacifism has harmed the white race greatly as well as our country. I didn't agree with him at the time and quite frankly it pissed me off when he posted those diatribes but it turns out that I think he is right in many respects on that issue. Edited by: guest301