Vatican turnaround

Freedom

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KP, 11 million total people were killed by the Nazis due to their "race" or supposed genetic code. Roughly 6 million of them were deemed racially Jewish.

The Nazis were definitely a left wing organization that was anti-Communist in rhetoric only. Hitler was a definitely a Communist. There's a reason they call it National "Socialism." He was an occult Transcendentalist, the philosophical basis for Obama, Clinton, and Bush's policies, more than anything else.

Their biggest product is Henry Kissinger who thinks soldiers are "dumb animals," akin to how the Nazis treated Slavs and Poles.
 

Observer

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You could look it up, but I think the Red Cross figure is something like 271,000 Jewish deaths during WWII in the German camps that were within the Red Cross' inspection zone. The number of Jewish deaths in the Ukraine is usually thrown in as a lumped number, but that seems to me like lumping together the number of blacks who died in Rwanda with the number that got lynched in the South.

I have not really studied this, nor is it in my current "To Do" list, but my understanding is that in the Ukraine, the Jewish deaths were not really a German endeavor, but rather that the Ukrainians were fighting back in retaliation against Jewish Bolshevism which had starved out something like 20 million Ukrainians in the 1920's. I'm not saying they were right to do so, but in terms of ethnic wars, it was "pay back" time. This is not a unique event in human history; in fact, there seem to be about 3 instances every decade of these large scale ethnic retributions. And yes, Bolshevism throughout Europe (see Churchill's writings) were very much viewed as a Jewish movement.

Like Solomon said, the number of claimed deaths is a very big stick in the modern political world; in fact, it has perhaps become the defining event around which modern western governments have defined their politics, policies, and morals. A good portion of the US foreign policy is built around it; and, as in this situation with Bishop Williamson, several countries have even used it to redefine their once-hallowed concept of free speech.

There are many, many ethnic groups that have suffered terribly throughout history, and attempts should be made to make some kind of reparation. But this idea that the WWII Jewish deaths are unique in history or in some way have a greater value than the deaths of the Ukrainians or Armenians or other peoples... this idea is wrong and is corrupting Western societies to create even further wrongs.

The historians should battle this one out, rather than bullying and extortion by tyrannical governments. It really does make the whole thing just smell like propaganda and lies. If the facts are on their side, then why the bullying tactics?
 

Don Wassall

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Freedom said:
I've addressed this before, but the Nazis considered Judaism to be a race while many orthodox Jews considered it to be a religion. Many of the people that the Nazis killed in the camps supposedly due to being Jewish were following other religions.

It is ethnicity and not race that is ultimately defining.


More of your patented obfuscations.


Your first sentence is a non-sequitur. You leave out most of the bigger picture. Most European Jews are not orthodox; they are reform. These are the ones who came up Zionism and are the ones who still promote it. It was these Jews who defined themselves ethnically and racially; the Germans and all others who refer to Jews in ethnic terms are only defining them the waymost define themselves.


Orthodox Jews tend to be anti-Zionist but they are even more racist than the Zionists. Many of the settlers who terrorize non-Jews in Israel are Orthodox. They are also poorer, less numerous and less influential than Zionist Jews.


Your concluding sentence directly contradicts your first.Jewspretending to non-Jews to be only a religion whenJudaism is a racial-religionis the issue.Or do you think Israel's Jewish supremacist government and the Zionist movement is only about "religion"? Edited by: Don Wassall
 

Don Wassall

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Freedom said:
The Nazis were definitely a left wing organization that was anti-Communist in rhetoric only. Hitler was a definitely a Communist. There's a reason they call it National "Socialism." He was an occult Transcendentalist, the philosophical basis for Obama, Clinton, and Bush's policies, more than anything else.

Their biggest product is Henry Kissinger who thinks soldiers are "dumb animals," akin to how the Nazis treated Slavs and Poles.


smiley36.gif
Great stuff. Professor Irwin Corey lives! Maybe you and Sandra Bernhard can do a show together in the Catskills!Edited by: Don Wassall
 

Freedom

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I don't know who either of those people are but their acts probably suck.


And no, before the events leading up to WWII most people like Franz Boas, Boris Sidis, and Albert Einstein did not consider themselves Jewish, at least not in a sense of affecting their nationalism or religion. Bernard Benjamin Disraeli even warned of "Jewish infiltration." Noted investor Benjamin Graham changed his name from "Grossbaum" not because it was too Jewish sounding, but because it was too German sounding during WWI!!

Einstein even opposed much of "Zionism" after the war.
http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/Einstein.htm

A "racial" Jewish community formed out of necessity by individuals trying to survive. Had they been treated like any other people, they would have assimilated.

Oh, and the idea of a homeland for people who were "racially" Jewish was in fact largely promoted by Hitler before WWII started. Look up the "Madagascar plan." Hitler's megalomania expanded after the battle of France and that's what made him want to exterminate genetic "degenerates" and attack Russia. So before the war, Hitler was as much a Zionist as any Jew.

A quick look at Hitler's actions should tell you that he was definitely a Communist who did more for Communism than Karl Marx. He simply veiled his ideology by killing Strasser and then taking his ideas.
 

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Kaptain Poop said:
There is quite a difference between a couple hundred thousand dying mostly from disease and 6 million planned executions. One happened and one is the hoax of the century.


Ah yes, the6 million figure....again.It didn't take holdduring the first world war when it was first tried. Read the article below, but remember it was written in 1919. Absolutely fascinating. We keep falling for this stuff.


[url]http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/The%20Crucifixion%20o f%20Jews%20Must%20Stop.htm[/url]


<CITE>The American Hebrew</CITE>
October 31, 1919
Pages 582 &amp; 601
<HR align=left>

<H1>The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop!</H1>
<ADDRESS>By Martin H. Glynn</ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS>(Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)</ADDRESS>


From across the sea six million men and women call to us for help, and eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.


These children, these men and women are our fellow-members of the human family, with the same claim on life as we, the same susceptibility to the winter's cold, the same propensity to death before the fangs of hunger. Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for the advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in six million human beings. We may not be their keepers but we ought to be their helpers.


In the face of death, in the throes of starvation there is no place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differentiations of race. In this catastrophe, when six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave by a cruel and relentless fate, only the most idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the hand.


Six million men and women are dying from lack of the necessaries of life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood.


In this threatened holocaust of human life, (snip)
 

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Freedom said:
I don't know who either of those people are but their acts probably suck.


And no, before the events leading up to WWII most people like Franz Boas, Boris Sidis, and Albert Einstein did not consider themselves Jewish, at least not in a sense of affecting their nationalism or religion. Bernard Benjamin Disraeli even warned of "Jewish infiltration." Noted investor Benjamin Graham changed his name from "Grossbaum" not because it was too Jewish sounding, but because it was too German sounding during WWI!!

Einstein even opposed much of "Zionism" after the war.
http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/Einstein.htm

A "racial" Jewish community formed out of necessity by individuals trying to survive. Had they been treated like any other people, they would have assimilated.

Oh, and the idea of a homeland for people who were "racially" Jewish was in fact largely promoted by Hitler before WWII started. Look up the "Madagascar plan." Hitler's megalomania expanded after the battle of France and that's what made him want to exterminate genetic "degenerates" and attack Russia. So before the war, Hitler was as much a Zionist as any Jew.

A quick look at Hitler's actions should tell you that he was definitely a Communist who did more for Communism than Karl Marx. He simply veiled his ideology by killing Strasser and then taking his ideas.


You remind me of one of those large old cumbersome computers from the 1960s. Someone would feed it a random factoid or two and eventually it would churn out some nonsensical response.


What does Benjamin Graham changing his name have to do with anything?? Who cares what Einstein opposed after the war??


You totally avoid the points I made, namely that Judaism is a racial-religion, that Jews themselves in most cases identify themselves as an ethnicity not just a religion, and that Orthodox Jews are often even more racially orientedthan the Zionist Jewish supremacists who control Israel. Do you agree or disagree with that? Try giving a straightforward, conciseanswer for once, if you're capable of it.
 

Kaptain

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Our local paper has been running daily holocaust cry-baby stories. I find it amazing how a hoax that was pulled off in such an amatuerish school-boy fashion is actually accepted as fact by the dumbed down masses.

Freedom, I notice your 11 million holocaust claim and like all the other holocaust worshipers I know you'll supply no evidence. You'll just parrot lines you probably first heard in the fourth grade and never questioned. How do I know you'll supply no real evidence? Well, no one else has in all my years of blogging so it simply must not exist.

Back to the amatuerish school-boy holohoax. What's amazing to me is how the holocaust was sold to us in such a blatantly fake almost comical manner. It's amazing the world actually teaches this garbage to their children.

This is the rather simple low-cost production evidence I supplied to holocaust worshipping bloggers from our local paper that completely shut them up and even turned one worshiper into openly agreeing with me (most have probably seen it before) - Buchenwald is my favorite:



Holocaust denial videos

BTW, I find videos the best way to supply evidence to the dumb-down masses. Most people these days don't have the gumption to read. I suggest to everyone to download, save, and burn dvd's - all of this stuff is soon to be censored and erased from history.
 

Freedom

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Censuses, total casualty counts, and military rosters provide most of the work. Occasionally there were camp manifests as well. Just count personnel that died away from bomb and battle sites.


On a related note, I don't see how you can be pro-white and support the annihilation of any people, let alone the Poles and Slavs.
 

Kaptain

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Freedom said:
Censuses, total casualty counts, and military rosters provide most of the work. Occasionally there were camp manifests as well. Just count personnel that died away from bomb and battle sites.


On a related note, I don't see how you can be pro-white and support the annihilation of any people, let alone the Poles and Slavs.

You're full of it, have done zero research, and have supplied zero evidence to support your scatter-shot points. Frankly, I think you're a plant.

Saying the holocaust was a hoax is not the same as "supporting" annhilation. It's saying the "annihilation" in question didn't exist. Is that such hard concept to grasp?

By the looks of your extremely pro-israel posts, you support the "annihilation" of muslims and a have deep hatred for Germans. More ethnic Germans died in WWII (a war pushed by jews)than Jews, but I know you'll never stick up for white Germans because you'll cry for your Jewish brothers and their holohoax.
 

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here's another interesting column regarding the problem of the totalitarian, anti-investigation, pro-Zionist religionthat isthe "H"olocaust industry. [url]http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/02/what-does-holocaust-de nial-really-mean/[/url]
<H1 =title>What Does Holocaust Denial Really Mean?</H1>
by Daniel McGowan / February 17th, 2009
<DIV =entry>


In April 2007 the European Union agreed to set jail sentences up to three years for those who deny or trivialize the Holocaust.<SUP>1</SUP> More recently, in response to the remarks of Bishop Richard Williamson, the Pope has proclaimed that Holocaust denial is "intolerable and altogether unacceptable."


But what does Holocaust denial really mean? Begin with the word Holocaust. The Holocaust<SUP>2</SUP> (spelled with a capital H) refers to the killing of six million Jews by the Nazis during World War II. It is supposed to be the German's "Final Solution" to the Jewish problem. Much of the systematic extermination was to have taken place in concentration camps by shooting, gassing, and burning alive innocent Jewish victims of the Third Reich.


People like Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, and Bishop Williamson who do not believe this account and who dare to say so in public are reviled as bigots, anti-Semites, racists, and worse. Their alternate historical scenarios are not termed simply revisionist, but are demeaned as Holocaust denial. Rudolf and Zundel were shipped to Germany where they were tried, convicted, and sentenced to three and five years, respectively. Williamson may not be far behind.


Politicians deride Holocaust revisionist papers and conferences as "beyond the pale of international discourse and acceptable behavior."<SUP>3</SUP> Non-Zionist Jews who participate in such revisionism, like Rabbi Dovid Weiss of the Neturei Karta, are denounced as "self-haters" and are shunned and spat upon. Even Professor Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were both Holocaust survivors and who wrote the book, The Holocaust Industry, has been branded a Holocaust denier.


But putting aside the virile hate directed against those who question the veracity of the typical Holocaust narrative, what is it that these people believe and say at the risk of imprisonment and bodily harm? For most Holocaust revisionists or deniers if you prefer, their arguments boil down to three simple contentions:


1. Hitler's "Final Solution" was intended to be ethnic cleansing, not extermination.
2. There were no homicidal gas chambers used by the Third Reich.
3. There were fewer than 6 million Jews killed of the 55 million who died in WWII.


Are these revisionist contentions so odious as to cause those who believe them to be reviled, beaten, and imprisoned? More importantly, is it possible that revisionist contentions are true, or even partially true, and that they are despised because they contradict the story of the Holocaust, a story which has been elevated to the level of a religion in hundreds of films, memorials, museums, and docu-dramas?


Is it sacrilegious to ask, "If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?" Wiesel claims that people were thrown alive into burning pits, yet even the Israeli-trained guides at Auschwitz refute this claim.


Is it really "beyond international discourse" to question the efficacy and the forensic evidence of homicidal gas chambers? If other myths, like making soap from human fat, have been dismissed as Allied war propaganda, why is it "unacceptable behavior" to ask if the gas chamber at Dachau was not reconstructed by the Americans because no other homicidal gas chamber could be found and used as evidence at the Nuremburg trials?


For more than fifty years Jewish scholars have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to document each Jewish victim of the Nazi Holocaust. The Nazis were German, obsessed with paperwork and recordkeeping. Yet only 3 million names have been collected and many of them died of natural causes. So why is it heresy to doubt that fewer than 6 million Jews were murdered in the Second World War?


"Holocaust Denial" might be no more eccentric or no more criminal than claiming the earth is flat, except that the Holocaust itself has been used as the sword and shield in the quest to build a Jewish state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, where even today over half the population is not Jewish.


The Holocaust narrative allows Yad Vashem, the finest Holocaust museum in the world, to repeat the mantra of "Never Forget" while it sits on Arab lands stolen from Ein Karem and overlooking the unmarked graves of Palestinians massacred by Jewish terrorists at Deir Yassin. It allows Elie Wiesel to boast of having worked for these same terrorists (as a journalist, not a fighter) while refusing to acknowledge, let alone apologize for, the war crimes his employer committed. It makes Jews the ultimate victim no matter how they dispossess or dehumanize or ethnically cleanse indigenous Palestinian people.


The Holocaust story eliminates any comparison of Ketziot or Gaza to the concentration camps they indeed are. It memorializes the resistance of Jews in the ghettos of Europe while steadfastly denying any comparison with the resistance of Palestinians in Hebron and throughout the West Bank. It allows claims that this year's Hanukah Massacre in Gaza, with a kill ratio of 100 to one, was a "proportionate response" to Palestinian resistance to unending occupation.


The Holocaust is used to silence critics of Israel in what the Jewish scholar, Marc Ellis, has called the ecumenical deal: you Christians look the other way while we bludgeon the Palestinians and build our Jewish state and we won't remind you that Hitler was a good Catholic, a confirmed "soldier of Christ," long before he was a bad Nazi.


The Holocaust narrative of systematic, industrialized extermination was an important neo-conservative tool to drive the United States into Iraq. The same neo-con ideologues, like Norman Podoretz, routinely compare Ahmadinejad to Hitler and Nazism with Islamofascism with the intent of driving us into Iran. The title of the recent Israeli conference at Yad Vashem made this crystal clear: "Holocaust Denial: Paving the Way to Genocide."


"Remember the Holocaust" will be the battle cry of the next great clash of good (Judeo/Christian values) and evil (radical Islamic aggression) and those who question it must be demonized if not burned at the stake.

  1. <LI =footnote id=footnote_0_6793>Associated Press, "EU approves criminal measures against Holocaust denial," Haaretz, 19 April 2007. []
    <LI =footnote id=footnote_1_6793>Holocaust. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005. []
    <LI =footnote id=footnote_2_6793>Statements of Senator Hillary Clinton. []</LI>
Daniel McGowan is a Professor Emeritus at Hobart and William Smith Colleges. Because of admonishment by the administration, it is hereby stated that the above remarks are solely those of the author. Hobart and William Smith Colleges neither condone nor condemn these opinions. Furthermore, the author has been instructed to use his personal email address of mcgowandaniel@yahoo.com and not his college email at mcgowan@hws.edu for those wishing to contact him with comments or criticisms. Read other articles by Daniel.
 

Freedom

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KP, it's counting. 11 million people died who weren't in combat. It's that simple. Do you want the specific census data?

What do know about whether I've stuck up for ethnic Germans or not? Nothing. I have.

I staunchly oppose any criminalization of holocaust denial too, even though it's just plain stupid.
 

Observer

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Freedom said:
KP, it's counting. 11 million people died who weren't in combat. It's that simple. Do you want the specific census data?

I don't think it's that simple.

From what countries is this census data taken? Just because the numbers changed downward does not mean that these people were systematically murdered in camps. People find lots of other ways to die other than in a "death camp". It doesn't even mean that they died. Emigration during hardship and wartime is often very high, and the revisionist historians have tried to gain a better grasp of this raw census data.Edited by: Observer
 

Freedom

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Back then, even left wingers like Eisenhower cared about illegal immigration(Operation Wetback.) When emigrants came to countries, they were at least counted. Most of those people would've shown up in data.
 

Bart

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[url]http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2009/02/20/europe/OUKWD- UK-ARGENTINA-BISHOP.php[/url]


Argentina expels Holocaust- denyingbishop


By HughBronstein


Argentina has given a Roman Catholic bishop 10 days to leave the country or be expelled after he caused an international uproar by denying the extent of the Holocaust, the government said onThursday.


Bishop Richard Williamson, an ultra-traditionalist who headed a seminary near Buenos Aires until earlier this month, has said he believes there were no gas chambers and that no more than 300,000 Jews died in Germany's Nazi concentration camps, rather than the 6 million figure that is widelyaccepted.


The Vatican ordered him to retract his comments and the British-born Williamson responded that needed more time to review theevidence.


"The interior minister ... orders Richard Nelson Williamson to leave the country within 10 days or be expelled," Argentina's government said in astatement.


Williamson's views were anti-Semitic and "deeply offended Argentine society," the government said. Argentina is home to one of the world's largest Jewish communities outside ofIsrael.


At the seminary outside Buenos Aires, in the rural town of La Reja, two clergymen told Reuters that Williamson had already left the sprawling, tree-linedcompound.


(snip)
 

Kaptain

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Freedom said:
KP, it's counting. 11 million people died who weren't in combat. It's that simple. Do you want the specific census data?

What do know about whether I've stuck up for ethnic Germans or not? Nothing. I have.

I staunchly oppose any criminalization of holocaust denial too, even though it's just plain stupid.

Yes! I want your scatter-shot data that PROVES that Germans executed 11 million people because of their ethnicity in their camps during WWII. Supply the numbers please - we all need a good laugh.
 

Tom Iron

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Interestingly, more and more people are coming to the fore and questioning the Holocaust.

No matter how smart the Zionists are, they went to the well once too often with the "Holocaust" flimflam and now they seem like the Dutch boy trying to stem leaks in the dyke with his fingers. They've only got so many fingers and the leaks keep increasing.

Tom Iron...
 

Freedom

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KP, the charge isn't execution due to ethnicity, it's execution due to race. You'd do well to know the difference.
 

Observer

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Freedom said:
KP, the charge isn't execution due to ethnicity, it's execution due to race. You'd do well to know the difference.

Still waiting for those numbers...
 

Freedom

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Yeah, I'm busy. I haven't had any time to look up census data. It's not like I have a life or anything
smiley36.gif
.

People don't disappear into thin air. We might differ on what we call the "Holocaust," I'm including any military attacks specifically targeting civilians strictly to exterminate people, as well as exposing people to conditions to engender their death.

I still can't understand what you have to gain from any numbers dispute. Most "reparations" were given to people who weren't harmed by the Nazis in any way and most of the Communist lobby that uses the holocaust to gain an advantage commits identical genocides themselves all over the world.

It's also extremely despicable to ignore Hitler's viscous persecution of the Poles and Slavs as well, who were viewed as farm animals in Nazi eyes.
 

Kaptain

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Freedom said:
KP, the charge isn't execution due to ethnicity, it's execution due to race. You'd do well to know the difference.

Still no evidence? I know you would love to turn this into some convulted scatter-shot arguement about race vs. ethnicity. You've been beaten by your own loud-mouthed stupidity and you want to obfuscate. The charge against the Germans better fits the definition of "ethnicty" rather than race. Surely homosexuals are not a "race." Stupid people aren't a race either. Thus, you belong to a distinct ethnic group that unwittingly identifies itself as morons - morons are not a race.

Anyways, all fun aside, here is what wikipedia says is an ethnic group:

"An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on a presumed or real common heritage.[1][2] Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness[3] and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits,[1][4] real or presumed, as indicators of contrast to other groups"

I guess I was waaayyyy off, huh? LOL
Edited by: Kaptain Poop
 

Freedom

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That wikipedia definition isn't really standard. Ethnicity tends to exclude biological traits.

You'll have your evidence in a week when I have time to go to a library and/or look up the census info.

And yeah, you are way off. The charge isn't execution due to culture and heritage, it's execution due to presumedly biological traits. Edited by: Freedom
 

Kaptain

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Is Webster's dictionary standard?:

"a: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background &lt;ethnic minorities&gt; &lt;ethnic enclaves&gt; b: being a member of a specified ethnic group &lt;an ethnic German&gt; c: of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics &lt;ethnic neighborhoods&gt; &lt;ethnic foods&gt;"

*notice the word RACIAL. So wikipedia, Webster, and nearly every on-line dictionary disagrees with you. Will you stop now?

Freedom, your a joke. I won't hold my breath on your "evidence" that in the day and age of the internet apparently takes over a week to find and is hidden in a dusty old book in the local library. That is laughable. Just admit it - your full of it. I suggest you quit digging that hole deeper and completely start over on this board. Maybe get a new name and try not post stuff you know nothing about.

Don't forget your library card.
Edited by: Kaptain Poop
 

Freedom

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It doesn't take a week Poop, I just don't feel like it.

The Nazis only killed homosexuals when they refused to cooperate with their authority. There were many queers throughout the ranks of the Wermacht.


And note the "or." It's not "and." Webster's only mentions that because some people mistakenly link ethnicity to race. It's false usage to link all of those ideas into one concept. You can't say that genetics are the ultimate determinant of culture or cuisine. Sorry, just doesn't work that way.

If you accurately predict people's favorite foods by looking at them, I'll be convinced though.
 
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