TOBY GERHART FOR HEISMAN VOTE EVERY DAY!
- Thread starter Electric Slide
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white is right said:
Steve Owens was an I-formation tailback during his 1967-69 career at Oklahoma. Owens played fullback with the Detroit Lions from 1970-74, gaining over a thousand yards in 1971.
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
A fullback can't win the award with the offensive sets used in today's game. Which is why a white RB relegated to FB has basically written off his career. In the days of Csonka, as was noted here on CF in another post, the fullback and halfback lined up side-by-side in the "Pro Set" formation, which made the fullback position essentially equal to the halfback position, so that's why Kiick, Csonka, and Morris got similar carry totals, because there was no real difference in the position.white is right said:
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
Here is the "Pro Set", which also is known as a split-back formation nowadays:
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
There have been some college FBs who have received a lot of carries since 1990 though, including such recent Whites at the service academies as Vince Murray-Navy 2009, Collin Mooney-Army 2008, Eric Kettani-Navy 2007 and 2008, and Adam Ballard-Navy 2005-2007. The days of a college FB getting a lot of carries and yards are not over, they just aren't very common.
Freethinker
Hall of Famer
DixieDestroyer
Hall of Famer
Colonel_Reb said:Toby has won the Doak Walker Award as the best RB in the FBS!ÂÂÂÂÂÂ
http://www.seattlepi.com/scorecard/cfootballnews.asp?articleID=270516
YES!!! One step closer to the (oh so deserved) Heisman!
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
Here's a Heisman related article about Toby running against stronger defenses than Ingram did. Its really a nice statistical annihilation of the widespread DWF argument (really just a BS opinion) that Toby couldn't put up the same numbers in the SEC! This
is a must read/distribute article, in my opinion, even though it calls
Toby deceptively fast.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/306816-could-toby-gerhart-start-for-alabama
Here's the text:
The
Heisman race from some projections is boiling down to a two man race. A
classic east coast vs. west coast showdown for the most prestigious
award in college sports.
As an Alabama fan, I'm hoping beyond
hope for Mark Ingram to bring the Crimson Tide their first Heisman. I'm
not alone in this as all the Bama Nation has threw their support and
love behind this truly dominate running back.
Where I do fall off
the wagon though is when 'Bama fans start the, "Well,Gerhart couldn't
put up those numbers against the defenses in the SEC.", or the one I
heard yesterday, "Could Gerhart even start for the Crimson Tide?
The
resounding answer was no. Most fans didn't even believe he would beat
out Trent Richardson for the 2nd team. And of course, he loaded up his
stats on the weak PAC-10 defenses.
Now don't get me wrong, I love
Ingram and Richardson, and happen to think they are the best one-two
punch in the game. I just think our thinking has to be a little flawed
not to believe a 6-1 235lb bruiser, with deceptive speed couldn't
trounce our conferences defenses, or any others for that matter.
I know what your saying, well these are just a bunch of opinionated arguments with no facts to back it up.
Well, let me dispel the assumptions.
I took Stanford's schedule, and found the statistical rankings for rushing defense for the 12 teams they played.
Team Rushing Defense Ranking
Washinton State 117
Wake Forest 82
San Jose State 119
Washington 67
UCLA 60
Oregon State 25
Arizona 22
Arizona State 18
Oregon 38
USC 42
California 27
Notre Dame 90
Ok, I took those numbers along with some elementary math, found the average rush defense Gerhart faced would be ranked 59.1 in the nation against the run.
I then did the same thing for Alabama, except I dropped the one FCS team, and kept the number of games at 12.
Team Rushing Defense Ranking
Virginia Tech 52
Florida Int. 116
North Texas 104
Arkansas 69
Kentucky 100
New Miss 55
South Carolina 46
Tennessee 58
LSU 44
Miss. State 63
Auburn 80
Florida 13
The numbers show here that Ingram and Co. faced an average rush defense of 66.6.
Pretty mind numbing for the SEC homer isn't it.
Before you get ready to hit your next point in your argument, I'll take care of it for you.
What about just conference games then?
If you take Stanford's nine conference games, you get an average of 46.2.
Alabama's 9 conference games gives us an average of 58.6.
So either way you look at it Gerhart, by the numbers, faced better run defenses on the year.
Now
I'm not putting all this out there to say that Gerhart is a better back
than Ingram, or vice versa. They are both great players, invaluable to
their teams, whose performances stand on there own.
What I am saying is, if you think Ingram should win the Heisman, that's great. I do too.
If
you want to argue the fact Ingram should win it, then let's point out
how important he's been to the #1 team in the nation. Mention the fact
that he carried the offense during a tough stretch for quarterback.
Bring up how he played the best in the biggest games on the schedule.Just
don't say Ingram should win it because he put up the numbers in a
conference Gerhart couldn't even play in, it simply won't hold water.
is a must read/distribute article, in my opinion, even though it calls
Toby deceptively fast.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/306816-could-toby-gerhart-start-for-alabama
Here's the text:
The
Heisman race from some projections is boiling down to a two man race. A
classic east coast vs. west coast showdown for the most prestigious
award in college sports.
As an Alabama fan, I'm hoping beyond
hope for Mark Ingram to bring the Crimson Tide their first Heisman. I'm
not alone in this as all the Bama Nation has threw their support and
love behind this truly dominate running back.
Where I do fall off
the wagon though is when 'Bama fans start the, "Well,Gerhart couldn't
put up those numbers against the defenses in the SEC.", or the one I
heard yesterday, "Could Gerhart even start for the Crimson Tide?
The
resounding answer was no. Most fans didn't even believe he would beat
out Trent Richardson for the 2nd team. And of course, he loaded up his
stats on the weak PAC-10 defenses.
Now don't get me wrong, I love
Ingram and Richardson, and happen to think they are the best one-two
punch in the game. I just think our thinking has to be a little flawed
not to believe a 6-1 235lb bruiser, with deceptive speed couldn't
trounce our conferences defenses, or any others for that matter.
I know what your saying, well these are just a bunch of opinionated arguments with no facts to back it up.
Well, let me dispel the assumptions.
I took Stanford's schedule, and found the statistical rankings for rushing defense for the 12 teams they played.
Team Rushing Defense Ranking
Washinton State 117
Wake Forest 82
San Jose State 119
Washington 67
UCLA 60
Oregon State 25
Arizona 22
Arizona State 18
Oregon 38
USC 42
California 27
Notre Dame 90
Ok, I took those numbers along with some elementary math, found the average rush defense Gerhart faced would be ranked 59.1 in the nation against the run.
I then did the same thing for Alabama, except I dropped the one FCS team, and kept the number of games at 12.
Team Rushing Defense Ranking
Virginia Tech 52
Florida Int. 116
North Texas 104
Arkansas 69
Kentucky 100
New Miss 55
South Carolina 46
Tennessee 58
LSU 44
Miss. State 63
Auburn 80
Florida 13
The numbers show here that Ingram and Co. faced an average rush defense of 66.6.
Pretty mind numbing for the SEC homer isn't it.
Before you get ready to hit your next point in your argument, I'll take care of it for you.
What about just conference games then?
If you take Stanford's nine conference games, you get an average of 46.2.
Alabama's 9 conference games gives us an average of 58.6.
So either way you look at it Gerhart, by the numbers, faced better run defenses on the year.
Now
I'm not putting all this out there to say that Gerhart is a better back
than Ingram, or vice versa. They are both great players, invaluable to
their teams, whose performances stand on there own.
What I am saying is, if you think Ingram should win the Heisman, that's great. I do too.
If
you want to argue the fact Ingram should win it, then let's point out
how important he's been to the #1 team in the nation. Mention the fact
that he carried the offense during a tough stretch for quarterback.
Bring up how he played the best in the biggest games on the schedule.Just
don't say Ingram should win it because he put up the numbers in a
conference Gerhart couldn't even play in, it simply won't hold water.
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
Well it's been a very long 8 years but we finally have another white Doak Walker award winner. I think it's about time.
The journalist who the article below comes close to opening wide open the reason why we do not see white runninbacks, but doesn't quite make the full leap to the other side. Regardlss, Toby is opening up the debate and shedding light to the mainstream what's continually observed and discussed on this site:
http://www.newsok.com/one-of-a-kind-toby-gerhart-succeeds-at-a-position-white-players-dont-play-at-as-much-anymore/article/3424161?custom_click=lead_story_comments
One of a kind: Toby Gerhart succeeds at a position white players don't play at as much anymore
Toby Gerhart is already a Stanford football savior and a Heisman Trophy finalist. If the bruising tailback wins the bronze statue Saturday night, he might add another title to his resume.
Stanford running back Toby Gerhart has rushed for 1,736 yards and 26 TDs and is a Heisman Trophy finalist. Gerhart, if you hadn't noticed, is white.
Then again, how could you not notice?
Gerhart is part of an almost extinct breed of player in the highest levels of football â€" white feature backs.
The last white running back that rushed for 1,000 yards in the NFL was Craig James. He did so 24 years ago. That drought pales in comparison to the last time a white running back led the NFL in rushing: Jim Taylor 47 years ago.
John Cappelletti was the last white running back to win the Heisman, a feat the Penn State back accomplished in 1973.
In the NFL, none of the 32 teams currently has a white feature back. In the college ranks, only one team from a BCS conference has one.
His name: Toby Gerhart.
So, why are there so few white running backs in college and professional football?
"Simple, simple, simple reason,"Â coaching legend Barry Switzer said. "There's not that many white running backs out there. They're limited in number."Â
There's validity in that limited-availability theory. Major-college and pro coaches, after all, are primarily interested in one thing â€" winning â€" and if they think a player can help them do that, they'll go after him. His skin could be white or black, blue or green, orange or purple with pink polka dots.
What matters most is his ability.
That was what Switzer told his coaching staff when he first became Oklahoma's head coach in 1973. He passed along that mandate in the first meeting with his assistants.
"We're going to recruit the best players at each position,"Â he told them.
He looked around the room, a stern look etched on his face.
"If anybody has any exception to that, you need to talk to me after the meeting,"Â he said. "You might need to get a job somewhere else."Â
In a not-so-subtle way, Switzer was letting his coaches know that he wanted them to recruit the best players regardless of race. In those days, some coaches were still hesitant to recruit blacks to play certain positions. Switzer wanted no such exceptions.
That's because he wanted to win.
So does every pro and college coach nowadays. If they are seeking the best players to help them do that, then why aren't they finding many white running backs?
The answer has its origins in the reintegration of the NFL. The league welcomed back black players in 1946, and over the next several decades, offenses became increasingly specialized. Highly skilled athletes became a must at running back.
That prompted grassroots coaches at the high school levels and below to seek out the best athletes to play the position. Blacks have been chosen more often than whites.
Why?
The theories are many. Some believe young players are funneled toward certain positions based on stereotyped characteristics, a practice called stacking or slotting. Others say young athletes' economic backgrounds go a long way toward predetermining what position they'll seek. Then there is the controversial theory based on genetics and the idea that blacks have a speed and skill advantage on whites.
"They can't compete with us,"Â NFL Hall of Fame running back Eric Dickerson once said. "The black athlete, especially at that position, is faster, more elusive. That's a position made for agility.
"It's kind of like our chosen position."Â
That's as ridiculous, of course, as saying quarterback is a white man's position.
Jon Entine contends there is a link between ancestral genetics and athletic success. In his controversial book "Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It," he argues that athletes of West African descent â€" which would include a sizable chunk of black athletes in America â€" have a genetic advantage that gives them an edge in sprinting.
Some scientists agree. Others do not.
You can question all of the theories, but you can't dispute the trend.
White running backs are few and far between.
According to the recruiting Web site Rivals.com, 27 running backs are four- or five-star prospects in this year's recruiting class.
None of them are white.
The highest ranked white running back is Brandon Bourbon. The pride of Potosi, Mo., runs a sub-4.5 40-yard dash, showing great straight-ahead speed with an ability to make defenders miss. He also has a 3.86 grade point average.
Bourbon is committed to Stanford.
Maybe he's the next Toby Gerhart.
The Cardinal would be so lucky. Gerhart has been nothing short of phenomenal this season, rushing for 1,736 yards and 26 touchdowns. He has led Stanford to its first bowl appearance in eight years, a Sun Bowl showdown with Oklahoma on New Year's Eve.
Gerhart wasn't some no-name coming out of high school. He got plenty of attention from recruiters. When he went to Southern Cal on a visit, the coaches said they'd love to have him join the Trojans. Thing is, they wanted him to move to fullback or linebacker.
Heck, Gerhart's father told Sports Illustrated that a linebacker coach recently said of his son, "You give me one year with him, and I'll turn him into Junior Seau."Â
Nothing wrong with Junior Seau.
But why couldn't Gerhart be the next Marion Barber or Steven Jackson? He has a build and a style similar to those two NFL standouts, and yet, you wonder how many NFL types have Gerhart penciled in as a fullback or tight end or maybe even a linebacker.
As rare as white running backs are in the college ranks, they're even rarer in the pros.
"It's definitely a position that's predominantly black,"Â said Walt Garrison, who was a star running back at Oklahoma State before becoming a standout with the Dallas Cowboys. "That's not to say there aren't any great running backs who are white."Â
He played alongside another white tailback in Dallas, Dan Reeves, but now, having a backfield made up entirely of white running backs seems as farfetched as Bill Belichick cracking a smile or Chad Ochocinco toning it down.
"There's just not that many of them,"Â Garrison said of white running backs. "I don't know why that is."Â
Toby Gerhart is a rarity, an anomaly, a throwback.
Come Saturday, though, he might be a Heisman Trophy winner, too.
http://www.newsok.com/one-of-a-kind-toby-gerhart-succeeds-at-a-position-white-players-dont-play-at-as-much-anymore/article/3424161?custom_click=lead_story_comments
One of a kind: Toby Gerhart succeeds at a position white players don't play at as much anymore
Toby Gerhart is already a Stanford football savior and a Heisman Trophy finalist. If the bruising tailback wins the bronze statue Saturday night, he might add another title to his resume.
Stanford running back Toby Gerhart has rushed for 1,736 yards and 26 TDs and is a Heisman Trophy finalist. Gerhart, if you hadn't noticed, is white.
Then again, how could you not notice?
Gerhart is part of an almost extinct breed of player in the highest levels of football â€" white feature backs.
The last white running back that rushed for 1,000 yards in the NFL was Craig James. He did so 24 years ago. That drought pales in comparison to the last time a white running back led the NFL in rushing: Jim Taylor 47 years ago.
John Cappelletti was the last white running back to win the Heisman, a feat the Penn State back accomplished in 1973.
In the NFL, none of the 32 teams currently has a white feature back. In the college ranks, only one team from a BCS conference has one.
His name: Toby Gerhart.
So, why are there so few white running backs in college and professional football?
"Simple, simple, simple reason,"Â coaching legend Barry Switzer said. "There's not that many white running backs out there. They're limited in number."Â
There's validity in that limited-availability theory. Major-college and pro coaches, after all, are primarily interested in one thing â€" winning â€" and if they think a player can help them do that, they'll go after him. His skin could be white or black, blue or green, orange or purple with pink polka dots.
What matters most is his ability.
That was what Switzer told his coaching staff when he first became Oklahoma's head coach in 1973. He passed along that mandate in the first meeting with his assistants.
"We're going to recruit the best players at each position,"Â he told them.
He looked around the room, a stern look etched on his face.
"If anybody has any exception to that, you need to talk to me after the meeting,"Â he said. "You might need to get a job somewhere else."Â
In a not-so-subtle way, Switzer was letting his coaches know that he wanted them to recruit the best players regardless of race. In those days, some coaches were still hesitant to recruit blacks to play certain positions. Switzer wanted no such exceptions.
That's because he wanted to win.
So does every pro and college coach nowadays. If they are seeking the best players to help them do that, then why aren't they finding many white running backs?
The answer has its origins in the reintegration of the NFL. The league welcomed back black players in 1946, and over the next several decades, offenses became increasingly specialized. Highly skilled athletes became a must at running back.
That prompted grassroots coaches at the high school levels and below to seek out the best athletes to play the position. Blacks have been chosen more often than whites.
Why?
The theories are many. Some believe young players are funneled toward certain positions based on stereotyped characteristics, a practice called stacking or slotting. Others say young athletes' economic backgrounds go a long way toward predetermining what position they'll seek. Then there is the controversial theory based on genetics and the idea that blacks have a speed and skill advantage on whites.
"They can't compete with us,"Â NFL Hall of Fame running back Eric Dickerson once said. "The black athlete, especially at that position, is faster, more elusive. That's a position made for agility.
"It's kind of like our chosen position."Â
That's as ridiculous, of course, as saying quarterback is a white man's position.
Jon Entine contends there is a link between ancestral genetics and athletic success. In his controversial book "Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It," he argues that athletes of West African descent â€" which would include a sizable chunk of black athletes in America â€" have a genetic advantage that gives them an edge in sprinting.
Some scientists agree. Others do not.
You can question all of the theories, but you can't dispute the trend.
White running backs are few and far between.
According to the recruiting Web site Rivals.com, 27 running backs are four- or five-star prospects in this year's recruiting class.
None of them are white.
The highest ranked white running back is Brandon Bourbon. The pride of Potosi, Mo., runs a sub-4.5 40-yard dash, showing great straight-ahead speed with an ability to make defenders miss. He also has a 3.86 grade point average.
Bourbon is committed to Stanford.
Maybe he's the next Toby Gerhart.
The Cardinal would be so lucky. Gerhart has been nothing short of phenomenal this season, rushing for 1,736 yards and 26 touchdowns. He has led Stanford to its first bowl appearance in eight years, a Sun Bowl showdown with Oklahoma on New Year's Eve.
Gerhart wasn't some no-name coming out of high school. He got plenty of attention from recruiters. When he went to Southern Cal on a visit, the coaches said they'd love to have him join the Trojans. Thing is, they wanted him to move to fullback or linebacker.
Heck, Gerhart's father told Sports Illustrated that a linebacker coach recently said of his son, "You give me one year with him, and I'll turn him into Junior Seau."Â
Nothing wrong with Junior Seau.
But why couldn't Gerhart be the next Marion Barber or Steven Jackson? He has a build and a style similar to those two NFL standouts, and yet, you wonder how many NFL types have Gerhart penciled in as a fullback or tight end or maybe even a linebacker.
As rare as white running backs are in the college ranks, they're even rarer in the pros.
"It's definitely a position that's predominantly black,"Â said Walt Garrison, who was a star running back at Oklahoma State before becoming a standout with the Dallas Cowboys. "That's not to say there aren't any great running backs who are white."Â
He played alongside another white tailback in Dallas, Dan Reeves, but now, having a backfield made up entirely of white running backs seems as farfetched as Bill Belichick cracking a smile or Chad Ochocinco toning it down.
"There's just not that many of them,"Â Garrison said of white running backs. "I don't know why that is."Â
Toby Gerhart is a rarity, an anomaly, a throwback.
Come Saturday, though, he might be a Heisman Trophy winner, too.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
The writer totally dodges the fact that the NCAA All Division career rushing records are held by whites, and that some of the best high school backs are white. Its not like there is an extreme shortage of white high school backs to recruit from. Of course, to point out these facts would be a lot closer to connecting the dots.
white lightning
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2004
- Messages
- 21,461
First off, I love the pic of Toby holding the Doak Walker Award. Thanks for posting that for us. I am not going to be negative at all. I will keep saying to myself that Toby is going to win. We need to belive this. It is going to happen tommorow night. We have had so many down moments, it is our time. Or should I say Tobys time.
Tommorow night will be incredible. I honestly belive that. Toby Gerhart will win the Heisman. Once it happens, let the celebration begin. I will remember this season for the rest of my life. What a great athlete, role model and human being. You just don't get any better than Toby Gerhart. Class all the way!
Tommorow night will be incredible. I honestly belive that. Toby Gerhart will win the Heisman. Once it happens, let the celebration begin. I will remember this season for the rest of my life. What a great athlete, role model and human being. You just don't get any better than Toby Gerhart. Class all the way!
castefighter
Newbie
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2009
- Messages
- 1
I had spoken to an ex-harlem globetrotter (black) today and all he had was praise for Toby Gerhart. He referenced the fact that he has "Breakaway Speed" and that people want to see a white running back in the nfl. Once funny thing he said was that he must have some black in him! This does not surprise me, since most people (either black, white, etc) find it hard to believe that a white man could ever be a running back, let along win the top running back collegiate award. I am certain he was joking, but there certainly is some truth to this perception. But as we all say, hopefully when Toby gets in the nfl and he is allowed to play, we will see more scouts recruit whites for the taboo positions, especially RB.
To think that a team could easily draft Toby Gerhart, Tim Tebow, and Jordan Shipley in one draft and not even use a first round draft choice blows my mind. God, if I could only own an NFL team.
The problem with the comparison to Riggins, like the jokers in the video made, is that it is used as a put-down meaning "limited skills." If you could turn the clock back to when Riggins was drafted, you would have to be moron not to take him as the first player overall - not first round - first overall. One of the leagues all-time rushing leaders, superbowl MVP, league MVP, and at one time single season TD record holder. Apparently, comparison to Riggins now means instant 3rd or 4th rounder.
The problem with the comparison to Riggins, like the jokers in the video made, is that it is used as a put-down meaning "limited skills." If you could turn the clock back to when Riggins was drafted, you would have to be moron not to take him as the first player overall - not first round - first overall. One of the leagues all-time rushing leaders, superbowl MVP, league MVP, and at one time single season TD record holder. Apparently, comparison to Riggins now means instant 3rd or 4th rounder.
To put this Ndamkingkong Suh stuff to rest: he had 12 sacks in 13 games. Good numbers to be sure but not near the national leader of 17. His ONLY multi-sack game was his last one against Texas in which he had 4 - in a LOSING effort.
If you can win the Heisman on your last game then fine, but how does that put Toby out of contention? I think over 200 yards and 4 touchdowns in a WINNING effort along with season long leading stats sums it up. If anybody but Gerhart wins its a joke.
Here's how I rank the top five for their performance this season:
1. Gerhart
2. McCoy
3. Suh
4. TeBow
5. Ingram
Ingram's stats are belittled by Gerhart's. McCoy is also undefeated and definetely more valueable to his team. The poor performance against Auburn puts Ingram out of the race alone. Edited by: Kaptain Poop
If you can win the Heisman on your last game then fine, but how does that put Toby out of contention? I think over 200 yards and 4 touchdowns in a WINNING effort along with season long leading stats sums it up. If anybody but Gerhart wins its a joke.
Here's how I rank the top five for their performance this season:
1. Gerhart
2. McCoy
3. Suh
4. TeBow
5. Ingram
Ingram's stats are belittled by Gerhart's. McCoy is also undefeated and definetely more valueable to his team. The poor performance against Auburn puts Ingram out of the race alone. Edited by: Kaptain Poop
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
The Heisman has proven itself to be a joke of an award many times before, so I have no faith that what should happen will. I'm just glad Toby will be there and have his story told to the country. If he wins, super! I'll celebrate it and mention it on my facebook page and get into more arguments with people who still can't admit that a White back from the Pac-10 is better than a black back from the SEC.
white lightning
Hall of Famer
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- Messages
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Let's think positive guys. We need some luck but I refuse to be negative. We will know in around 5 hours or so. Good luck Toby. We are proud of you.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
I agree, white lightning. It was nice to just see Toby on the set with Brando and Tillman at the halftime of Army/Navy. He's a great young man, and a phenomenal football player, and I hope he wins it! Regardless, I'm proud of him too.
The only thing Ingram supporters have is that his ypc are slightly better and Toby got more carries. Then they say he has more receiving yards than Toby. These two arguments contradict each other.
Stanford doesn't run the type of offense that uses short passes and screens, thats the reason Toby only has 10 catches. People fail to mention that he has 150 yards, so if they want to use the argument that Ingram WOULDVE had more with more carries, if Toby WOULDVE had gotten the same amount of passes/catches his way he would have 450 yards receiving.
Ingram avgs a little over 10 yards per catch. Toby averages around 15 yards per catch. So this is where they argue that the more catches you have your yards per catch average would go down. Funny how that same argument doesn't apply to yards per carry.
They also fail to mention that if Ingram DID have the same amount of carries, hed have to average a td every 6 touches (receiving or running) to catch up with Toby, which is not likely to happen. 26 tds is 3rd all time NCAA HISTORY, passing up Ricky Williams who had 25 in 97. Not one single back has gotten AS close to Barry Sanders record for over a decade.
These hypothetical situations crack me up, who is to say Ingram does anything with those extra carries? Hypothetically he could get tackled for losses numerous times, or only gain 1 or 2 yards. The fact is he didn't get the carries and there is no way to tell what he would do, you don't win Heisman's on hypothetical situations.
Most backs can't handle such a heavy workload, they either get tired or injured, its the reason that most backs don't receive that many carries. Look at Ingram's "hip pointer" against Auburn where he only had 30 yards. I don't believe he had an injury, but if they want to say he sucked that day because of an injury, it further proves my point.
Toby averaging 5.6 ypc (not far off from ingrams 6 ypc) is even more impressive considering that he had to carry in all kinds of situations, short yardage, running out the clock etc. He doesn't benefit from having a back that can come in and keep his legs fresh. His backup only had 55 carries compared to Toby's 311. Ingram's backup had 126 carries compared to Ingram's 249. Its also easy to increase your ypc against North Texas and Chattanooga(FCS) where he averaged 10 ypc, those teams are simply outmatched by Alabama from top to bottom. Their lines can't handle Bama's line.
Then they bring out this stat that doesn't even exist, yards after contact saying Ingram leads the nation with 800. I doubt he does because there is no one keeping tabs on everyone. They claim Toby is slower and less athletic than Ingram but if Ingram is getting touched that often that would just prove he is slower.
and then there is the argument of sec defense vs pac 10, someone linked and article that proved the rush defenses Toby faced were better, yet they claim that "any" sec back would run all over the pac 10.
we only have a few sec teams that played the pac 10 but the argument is still in Toby's favor
Hardesty (Tennessee's RB) has around 1300 yards rushing against mostly sec defenses. UCLA (a bottom of the pac 10 team) held Hardesty to 80 yards and 3.4 ypc 1td, which is a pretty low ypc. Toby had over 130 yards 4.6 ypc and 3 tds against the same team. Hardesty is the same guy who ran 180 yards against Kentucky an 120 against South Carolina(the team everyone brings up as Ingram's best game)
Toby also had more rushing yards against Washington than the ENTIRE stable of LSU backs. This was when Charles Scott was still healthy and considered better than Toby.
And also, since Pac 10's rush defenses avg better than SEC rush defenses, people want to say that SEC has better rushing offenses which skews the stats and pac 10 is a pass happy league. Even though the PAC 10 is more balanced than it has been in the past and the pass/run ratio is about 50/50. They have 6 great backs, 5 have rushed for over 1,000. Best would have been the 6th had he not gotten injured. SEC has 4 backs for over 1,000. So then the argument goes all the way back to that SEC rush defenses are better which is why they have less backs for over 1,000, which has already been proven wrong!
The notion that he would not be able to do well rushing in the SEC is pure homerism.
So all of their arguments contradict themselves.Edited by: dwid
Stanford doesn't run the type of offense that uses short passes and screens, thats the reason Toby only has 10 catches. People fail to mention that he has 150 yards, so if they want to use the argument that Ingram WOULDVE had more with more carries, if Toby WOULDVE had gotten the same amount of passes/catches his way he would have 450 yards receiving.
Ingram avgs a little over 10 yards per catch. Toby averages around 15 yards per catch. So this is where they argue that the more catches you have your yards per catch average would go down. Funny how that same argument doesn't apply to yards per carry.
They also fail to mention that if Ingram DID have the same amount of carries, hed have to average a td every 6 touches (receiving or running) to catch up with Toby, which is not likely to happen. 26 tds is 3rd all time NCAA HISTORY, passing up Ricky Williams who had 25 in 97. Not one single back has gotten AS close to Barry Sanders record for over a decade.
These hypothetical situations crack me up, who is to say Ingram does anything with those extra carries? Hypothetically he could get tackled for losses numerous times, or only gain 1 or 2 yards. The fact is he didn't get the carries and there is no way to tell what he would do, you don't win Heisman's on hypothetical situations.
Most backs can't handle such a heavy workload, they either get tired or injured, its the reason that most backs don't receive that many carries. Look at Ingram's "hip pointer" against Auburn where he only had 30 yards. I don't believe he had an injury, but if they want to say he sucked that day because of an injury, it further proves my point.
Toby averaging 5.6 ypc (not far off from ingrams 6 ypc) is even more impressive considering that he had to carry in all kinds of situations, short yardage, running out the clock etc. He doesn't benefit from having a back that can come in and keep his legs fresh. His backup only had 55 carries compared to Toby's 311. Ingram's backup had 126 carries compared to Ingram's 249. Its also easy to increase your ypc against North Texas and Chattanooga(FCS) where he averaged 10 ypc, those teams are simply outmatched by Alabama from top to bottom. Their lines can't handle Bama's line.
Then they bring out this stat that doesn't even exist, yards after contact saying Ingram leads the nation with 800. I doubt he does because there is no one keeping tabs on everyone. They claim Toby is slower and less athletic than Ingram but if Ingram is getting touched that often that would just prove he is slower.
and then there is the argument of sec defense vs pac 10, someone linked and article that proved the rush defenses Toby faced were better, yet they claim that "any" sec back would run all over the pac 10.
we only have a few sec teams that played the pac 10 but the argument is still in Toby's favor
Hardesty (Tennessee's RB) has around 1300 yards rushing against mostly sec defenses. UCLA (a bottom of the pac 10 team) held Hardesty to 80 yards and 3.4 ypc 1td, which is a pretty low ypc. Toby had over 130 yards 4.6 ypc and 3 tds against the same team. Hardesty is the same guy who ran 180 yards against Kentucky an 120 against South Carolina(the team everyone brings up as Ingram's best game)
Toby also had more rushing yards against Washington than the ENTIRE stable of LSU backs. This was when Charles Scott was still healthy and considered better than Toby.
And also, since Pac 10's rush defenses avg better than SEC rush defenses, people want to say that SEC has better rushing offenses which skews the stats and pac 10 is a pass happy league. Even though the PAC 10 is more balanced than it has been in the past and the pass/run ratio is about 50/50. They have 6 great backs, 5 have rushed for over 1,000. Best would have been the 6th had he not gotten injured. SEC has 4 backs for over 1,000. So then the argument goes all the way back to that SEC rush defenses are better which is why they have less backs for over 1,000, which has already been proven wrong!
The notion that he would not be able to do well rushing in the SEC is pure homerism.
So all of their arguments contradict themselves.Edited by: dwid
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
Great post, dwid!
Thanks, I am glad someone liked it.
Unfortunately, no SEC fan has acknowledged any part of the argument when I have posted it, only saying things like "Bama's d would hold Toby for under 50 yards!" "he hasn't seen anything like an SEC defense" "sec has nfl caliber defenses"
Even though Toby faced a USC team last year that had 8 defensive players drafted. 3 who are starting right now and doing well in the NFL. Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews and Rey M. A 4th has seen significant playing time. If that isn't the closest thing to an NFL caliber defense in college then I don't know what is. They only allowed 2 100 yard rushers, Toby was one of them. A 9th will be drafted the first round in Taylor Mays. This was before Stanford had anything resembling a passing attack which makes what he did even more impressive.
Does anyone know how many SEC teams have had 3 defenders starting and doing well in the NFL the very next year?
The Heisman ceremony is in few minutes. I wish Toby good luck. Although I don't really care if he wins it, as long as he keeps getting the exposure and he is allowed to play in the NFL as halfback. Winning it would be an added bonus though!Edited by: dwid
Unfortunately, no SEC fan has acknowledged any part of the argument when I have posted it, only saying things like "Bama's d would hold Toby for under 50 yards!" "he hasn't seen anything like an SEC defense" "sec has nfl caliber defenses"
Even though Toby faced a USC team last year that had 8 defensive players drafted. 3 who are starting right now and doing well in the NFL. Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews and Rey M. A 4th has seen significant playing time. If that isn't the closest thing to an NFL caliber defense in college then I don't know what is. They only allowed 2 100 yard rushers, Toby was one of them. A 9th will be drafted the first round in Taylor Mays. This was before Stanford had anything resembling a passing attack which makes what he did even more impressive.
Does anyone know how many SEC teams have had 3 defenders starting and doing well in the NFL the very next year?
The Heisman ceremony is in few minutes. I wish Toby good luck. Although I don't really care if he wins it, as long as he keeps getting the exposure and he is allowed to play in the NFL as halfback. Winning it would be an added bonus though!Edited by: dwid
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
I don't mean to get this thread off topic, since the ceremony has now started, but I have to vent here a little. Most SEC conference and team fans truly are ignorant, biased homers. Through arguments with several of them over the last few weeks, it is clear that quite a few don't care what the facts are, even after shown conclusive proof that shatters their "argument". They still spout incorrect, ignorant opinions based on what they "hear" about the SEC and then dare to call those the facts. They don't believe Toby Gerhart could be a great back in the SEC. I guess they forgot about Jacob Hester. Short memory! They argue that the SEC has the best competition and teams because they've won the last three "National Championships" which I am quick to remind them that they aren't real championships, just mythical champs who happen to play in the right conferences.
On another note, I don't know what you men think about the Boise State/Texas Christian bowl game, but I think its a slap in the face to those non-BCS member schools. They didn't want to see the "big boys" get embarrassed like Alabama was last year. I detest the idea of our Congress getting involved in college football, but I equally detest the BCS and would like to see a real playoff (16 teams minimum) any which way we can. I'm sick of the money conferences and inequality that pervades the FBS. They need true champions, champions who prove themselves on the field against all comers.
I know some of you here don't pay much attention to the FCS, or D-II/D-III/NAIA, but I have much more respect for those divisions because they go through the process the right way, not to mention the fact that they treat white skill players more fairly than the FBS.
Having said all that, I hope the Texas Longhorns whip Alabama all over the field. I also hope Montana beats Villanova with Chase Reynolds leading the way. I hope some of you watch Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater play for the D-III title next Saturday on ESPN2.
On another note, I don't know what you men think about the Boise State/Texas Christian bowl game, but I think its a slap in the face to those non-BCS member schools. They didn't want to see the "big boys" get embarrassed like Alabama was last year. I detest the idea of our Congress getting involved in college football, but I equally detest the BCS and would like to see a real playoff (16 teams minimum) any which way we can. I'm sick of the money conferences and inequality that pervades the FBS. They need true champions, champions who prove themselves on the field against all comers.
I know some of you here don't pay much attention to the FCS, or D-II/D-III/NAIA, but I have much more respect for those divisions because they go through the process the right way, not to mention the fact that they treat white skill players more fairly than the FBS.
Having said all that, I hope the Texas Longhorns whip Alabama all over the field. I also hope Montana beats Villanova with Chase Reynolds leading the way. I hope some of you watch Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater play for the D-III title next Saturday on ESPN2.
what a freaking joke. If Gerhart was going to lose, it should have been to SUH, not Ingram. Ingram wasn't even the best runningback. That award went to TOBY.
You are right Reb, SEC fans are very ignorant, beyond ignorant, because they are presented with the facts and still believe the same crap.
It sucks that Toby had to lose to Ingram, an SEC back, because now they wont shut up.
They said this race was very close and Ingram only won by 28 points.Edited by: dwid
You are right Reb, SEC fans are very ignorant, beyond ignorant, because they are presented with the facts and still believe the same crap.
It sucks that Toby had to lose to Ingram, an SEC back, because now they wont shut up.
They said this race was very close and Ingram only won by 28 points.Edited by: dwid