kevin said:
whattya talkin about? marcus is the fastest player in college football, he has the best moves, the best arm and is the most accurate thrower there is. he will be a first round pick as soon as he finishes his probation.
Michael Vick
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whattya talkin about? marcus is the fastest player in college football, he has the best moves, the best arm and is the most accurate thrower there is. he will be a first round pick as soon as he finishes his probation.
hollywoodnorth
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jaxvid said:
hollywoodnorth
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I hate to state the obvious but, hasn't something gone awry in America when prison is named in the same breath as a player's athleticism? When it's commonplace to see the cornerstone of a franchise 'on probation'? Something has gone terribly wrong here.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
No kidding. Totally backwards. Kind of reminds me of Revelation.
hollywoodnorth
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Not familiar with this movie, but I will go look for it.
Colonel_Reb
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It's not a movie, it's the last book of the Bible. It tells how things will be in the ned times. Much of the prophecy has already come true.
hollywoodnorth
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Sorry, thought you were referring to a movie. Not too often people refer to (even know of) a book in the Bible. I am familiar the Revelation. I personally find we can learn more from the Old Testament for it can be used as a reminder, a lesson, and a starting point for life's choices.
Ezekiel, just as one example, offers an insight on some of the rather inhuman tendencies of man. I believe that much can be learned from our erred past. Edited by: hollywoodnorth
Ezekiel, just as one example, offers an insight on some of the rather inhuman tendencies of man. I believe that much can be learned from our erred past. Edited by: hollywoodnorth
Colonel_Reb
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Yeah, your right about the Old Testament. That's where the law is. Too bad we have forgotten that in America, it's what we were founded on.
White Shogun
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Interesting show on this morning's ESPN "The Herd" about our favorite black QB, Mike Vick.
The Herd was making the point that Mike Vick will influence future NFL QB's the same as Michael Jordan influenced young basketball players. His media influence is undeniable. To the Herd's credit, he said this influence would be negative, and detrimental to the development of young QBs who try to emulate Vick.
Further, he said that, as an owner, Vick is the player you want on your team, because he puts "butt in the seats." But as a coach or GM, he said he'd prefer Manning or Brady.
As to Vick being overrated, the Herd defended Vick's ability, and pointed out that without Vick the Falcons are, at most, a 5 win team. With Vick, they make the NFC championship game. He further pointed out that in a couple of years Vick has already taken his team farther than Manning has taken the Colts.
I agree with him regarding Vick's influence, but attribute this mainly to media hype and overplayed highlight films.
I feel Vick is a poor QB, but cannot argue with his comments regarding how bad the Falcons would be without him.
I'd like to see the opinions of others on the board, regarding his comments about Vick's influence and the Falcons making the NFC Championship game.
The Herd was making the point that Mike Vick will influence future NFL QB's the same as Michael Jordan influenced young basketball players. His media influence is undeniable. To the Herd's credit, he said this influence would be negative, and detrimental to the development of young QBs who try to emulate Vick.
Further, he said that, as an owner, Vick is the player you want on your team, because he puts "butt in the seats." But as a coach or GM, he said he'd prefer Manning or Brady.
As to Vick being overrated, the Herd defended Vick's ability, and pointed out that without Vick the Falcons are, at most, a 5 win team. With Vick, they make the NFC championship game. He further pointed out that in a couple of years Vick has already taken his team farther than Manning has taken the Colts.
I agree with him regarding Vick's influence, but attribute this mainly to media hype and overplayed highlight films.
I feel Vick is a poor QB, but cannot argue with his comments regarding how bad the Falcons would be without him.
I'd like to see the opinions of others on the board, regarding his comments about Vick's influence and the Falcons making the NFC Championship game.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
All I've got to say is,
Bear-Arms
Mentor
Colts season records with Peyton
3-13
13-3 Playoffs lost
10-6 Playoffs lost Wildcard game
6-10
10-6 Playoffs lost Wildcard game(got smoked)
12-4 Playoffs lost championshipgame
12-4 Playoffs lost championshipgame
Falcons season records with Vick
didnt start void 7-9
9-6 Playoffs lost
injured void 5-11
11-5 Playoffs lost championship game
3-13
13-3 Playoffs lost
10-6 Playoffs lost Wildcard game
6-10
10-6 Playoffs lost Wildcard game(got smoked)
12-4 Playoffs lost championshipgame
12-4 Playoffs lost championshipgame
Falcons season records with Vick
didnt start void 7-9
9-6 Playoffs lost
injured void 5-11
11-5 Playoffs lost championship game
Bear-Arms
Mentor
It comes down to the schedules, the Colts obviously play tougher teams because they win. It also comes down to who has the stronger teams in their division. It also goes down to who had to play the Patriots in the Championship game on their own turf 2 years in a row. And weren't the Colts just abysmal before they got Peyton?
White Shogun
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I'm no Vick nuthugger, but Matt Schaub?
Not every white player in the NFL is a good one, jax.
If you have some stats or anecdotes to illustrate your point though, I'll definitely consider what you have to say.
Bear-Arms, both the Colts AND the Falcons were abysmal before the arrival of their respective star QB.
What do you think of Vick's influence on future QB though? I agree that he will have a great deal of influence, for sure, in the way young boys want to play QB, but overall this will be a negative thing for football and QB play in general.
If you have some stats or anecdotes to illustrate your point though, I'll definitely consider what you have to say.
Bear-Arms, both the Colts AND the Falcons were abysmal before the arrival of their respective star QB.
What do you think of Vick's influence on future QB though? I agree that he will have a great deal of influence, for sure, in the way young boys want to play QB, but overall this will be a negative thing for football and QB play in general.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
A few more media hype jobs done like what they did for Vick, and you can kiss it all goodbye. The coaches will be looking for them from high school on up, no matter if Vick sucked or not. If something isn't done to change this crap soon, we don't stand much of a chance of ever rolling some of it back.
White Shogun
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Col Reb, if Vick continues to fall short as a passer and the Falcons remain a cinderella team, or worse, we might see a lessening of the Vick adulation, although its not a given considering the current level of the media's adoration with him.
But heaven forbid if Vick's Falcons make the Super Bowl, and worse, win it. You can really kiss it good bye then!
But heaven forbid if Vick's Falcons make the Super Bowl, and worse, win it. You can really kiss it good bye then!
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
I agree White Shogun, but if the media "courts" some more ****ers from "nowhere" to them being the "greatest show on earth" in the next few years, you'll see a big change quickly. Believe me, they will try it, and especially with the largest ever crop of NB's coming up from college. Vick falling on his face will speed the process up too. You let a couple more like him get in the NFL and start, and you'll have nothing but ****er ball.
Edited by: Colonel_Reb
Edited by: Colonel_Reb
Bear-Arms
Mentor
Colts record before Manning
33 wins in 5 years
3-13 1997
9-7 1996
9-7 1995
8-8 1994
4-12 1993
Falcons record before Vick
33 wins in 5 years
4-12 2000
5-11 1999
14-2 Superbowl 1998
7-9 1997
3-13 1996
You are right White Shogun, I must of only remembered the 98 season. I just think the comment stinks, it take a lot more than a QB to turn a team around. He needs players around him. Besides they average more than 6 wins in 5 years before him. I agree that emulating him might be a problem for QBs without his speed, as well as QB for fundamentals. You can't deny he did brought his team closer, but he looked just as bad as Peyton in that Championship game. We will just have to see if he can emulate his winning ability. I think he still needs to prove he is better than McNabb or McNair. To me he is not.
33 wins in 5 years
3-13 1997
9-7 1996
9-7 1995
8-8 1994
4-12 1993
Falcons record before Vick
33 wins in 5 years
4-12 2000
5-11 1999
14-2 Superbowl 1998
7-9 1997
3-13 1996
You are right White Shogun, I must of only remembered the 98 season. I just think the comment stinks, it take a lot more than a QB to turn a team around. He needs players around him. Besides they average more than 6 wins in 5 years before him. I agree that emulating him might be a problem for QBs without his speed, as well as QB for fundamentals. You can't deny he did brought his team closer, but he looked just as bad as Peyton in that Championship game. We will just have to see if he can emulate his winning ability. I think he still needs to prove he is better than McNabb or McNair. To me he is not.
White Shogun
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Bear-Arms, I agree with your post. Just to make it clear, I don't agree with everything The Herd had to say; I'm just interested in the opinions of the board. I do try to look at things objectively though, which is why I had to agree that Falcons +Vick are better than Falcons have been -Vick.
I do think he is overrated AS A QB, though. If I remember correctly, the Falcons total points scored only exceeded total opponents points scored by 2. Many of the Falcons losses last year were lopsided defeats; it will be interesting to see how it plays out this year. Now that defensive coordinators have had the opportunity to watch him play for an entire year, there will be many more defensive schemes set up specifically to corral his scrambling. The Bucs have never had a problem holding Vick down; in the copy-cat league of the NFL, I expect other teams to follow suit.
We'll have to keep this thread alive as the season emerges.
I do think he is overrated AS A QB, though. If I remember correctly, the Falcons total points scored only exceeded total opponents points scored by 2. Many of the Falcons losses last year were lopsided defeats; it will be interesting to see how it plays out this year. Now that defensive coordinators have had the opportunity to watch him play for an entire year, there will be many more defensive schemes set up specifically to corral his scrambling. The Bucs have never had a problem holding Vick down; in the copy-cat league of the NFL, I expect other teams to follow suit.
We'll have to keep this thread alive as the season emerges.
Bear-Arms
Mentor
We will probably know if he is the real deal this year. But, there will always be some hatred and resentment towards him, because he is the medias golden boy. It's hard for a defense to read if he is gonna pass it or run it, and thats why he has been effective. You take that way and he becomes a lot less valuable. Weren't they successful last year because their good running game? Brett Favre, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning consistently have high passing percentages. I think he still has to show he can be that guy to lead the team with his arm.
We don't have to long for the season to begin now. I'm looking foward to seeing Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Palmer and Rex Grossman. Should be a good year for watching young QBs to develop. Being here in Chicago, Bear fans always complain about passing up Leftwich, to get Rex. So, it will be exciting to see who has been right.
I doubt this thread will fall out of the public eye, the media brings him up to often.
We don't have to long for the season to begin now. I'm looking foward to seeing Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Palmer and Rex Grossman. Should be a good year for watching young QBs to develop. Being here in Chicago, Bear fans always complain about passing up Leftwich, to get Rex. So, it will be exciting to see who has been right.
I doubt this thread will fall out of the public eye, the media brings him up to often.
White Shogun
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You're right about the Falcons running game; it was very successful but didn't get a lot of pub. Its tough for anyone to draw attention from the mega-watt bulb that is Mike Vick. Plus neither back is a superstar, they did it with a great line and the RBBC approach.
The Falcons had a lot of help last year from their defense, which featured more prominent white players than any other in the NFL.
It's not always easy to discern why a team plays better for one QB than another. Recall in 2002 when Chris Redman was injured and then (permanently) benched by Baltimore, whose offense immediately jelled when Anthony Wright, a generally atrocious black journeyman, took the reins. The team rode their emotional support of Wright to the playoffs that year. Looking at the composition of the Ravens roster, it's not difficult to imagine that the team was charged up by having a black QB, any black QB, taking the snaps. That could be a factor in Vick's limited success, because he is far from being an accomplished quarterback by any measuring stick when it comes to performance.
Kordell Stewart was periodically benched during the Great Eight Year Kordell Stewart Experiment in Pittsburgh. But the Steelers never did well under any of the white journeymen scrubs Bill Cowher brought in as "competition" for Stewart. Kordell would then regain his starter's job and the team would do well on offense for a game or two or three, before Stewart's amazing ineptness would bring them down again.
Vick's hype reminds me a lot of the hype Stewart received as "Slash" in his early years with the Steelers. The Steelers had a few successful years with/in spite of Stewart being their starting quarterback. The jury's still out as to whether Vick will be appreciably better than Stewart.
It's not always easy to discern why a team plays better for one QB than another. Recall in 2002 when Chris Redman was injured and then (permanently) benched by Baltimore, whose offense immediately jelled when Anthony Wright, a generally atrocious black journeyman, took the reins. The team rode their emotional support of Wright to the playoffs that year. Looking at the composition of the Ravens roster, it's not difficult to imagine that the team was charged up by having a black QB, any black QB, taking the snaps. That could be a factor in Vick's limited success, because he is far from being an accomplished quarterback by any measuring stick when it comes to performance.
Kordell Stewart was periodically benched during the Great Eight Year Kordell Stewart Experiment in Pittsburgh. But the Steelers never did well under any of the white journeymen scrubs Bill Cowher brought in as "competition" for Stewart. Kordell would then regain his starter's job and the team would do well on offense for a game or two or three, before Stewart's amazing ineptness would bring them down again.
Vick's hype reminds me a lot of the hype Stewart received as "Slash" in his early years with the Steelers. The Steelers had a few successful years with/in spite of Stewart being their starting quarterback. The jury's still out as to whether Vick will be appreciably better than Stewart.
I think that the fad of the black running qb in the NFL will fade over the next couple of seasons. They just aren't effective over a full season due to injury and defensive schemes. I will never forget a comment by Steve Young (a great running qb)where he said that he became a great qb when he realized that his job was to get the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible. It is interesting that the black qb that had the best career of all black qbs was Warren Moon, a great PASSING qb.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
I wish it was just a fad, because I think it is an agenda. It will be no different than what happened to Josh Booty at LSU. All the blacks complained about Rohan Davey not being QB and they would not play for Booty. End result was Josh sitting the bench and his brother Abram, who was a top notch receiver, leaving for Valdosta State. It will happen in the NFL if something isn't done soon. Every year there are more black QB's moving up from college, and there will only be more chances for the media to hype these mediocre players.
I agree Colonel that there is an agenda, but eventually the team has to win. The coaches are under pressure to win or get fired. The Kordell Stewart experiment above is a great example. Few coaches would get the latitude that Cowher gets. Now look at the Steelers qb situation. As long as Tom Brady wins Superbowls and Peyton Manning wins MVPs, they will be the model of how to win in the NFL.