Since were all White Brothers here now that pugnus is gone. I wanted to conduct a poll. Who was the Greatest White Heavyweight of All-Time in your opinion? We can and will disagree but lets keep it all productive. Some men to consider are Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Jim Corbett, John L.Sullivan. Also since Marciano who was the best White Heavyweight? Again some men to consider were Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, Vitali Klitscko, Tommy Morrison. Who was the best in your opinion?
Greatest White Heavyweight of All
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
I would be hard pressed to vote for anyone other than Marciano as the best fighter becaause of his superb record. As for boxing abilit itself I would have to lean toward Gene Tunney who was a superb technician in the ring.He also beat Dempsey and his one loss came at the hands of the legendary Harry Greb who many consider one of the greatest ever. Tunney did mangae to beat him 3 of four (?) times.
Jerry Quarry beat Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and a lot of highly respected fighters. Tommy Morrisson may have had the most weapons . Cooney could have performed better perhaps, if handled differently. Klitchko probably could have beaten all the modern era boxers.
Jerry Quarry beat Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and a lot of highly respected fighters. Tommy Morrisson may have had the most weapons . Cooney could have performed better perhaps, if handled differently. Klitchko probably could have beaten all the modern era boxers.
Quarry was a really tough guy-his problem was he cut too easily. Quarry was only 190-200lbs-he beat Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, Thad Spencer, Floyd Patterson, Mac Foster. Cooney had size and potenial but was inactive too much during his career-his KO of Ken Norton was brutal. Morrison had a very good left hook-he beat Foreman and Ruddock but Tommy was a playboy like Max Baer. Morrison's chin was not great. Vitali could well prove to be the best but he needs to fight more often-he is very tall and seems to hit hard-I believe he could beat Lennox Lewis.
As far as the old-timers go- Dempsey vs. Marciano would be a WAR. Tunney maybe could outbox them, hard to say. Jeffries would be a match for anybody. There were others who never were Champions that were very tough-Tom Sharkey,Bill Brennen,Luther McCarthy, Frank Moran etc.
As far as the old-timers go- Dempsey vs. Marciano would be a WAR. Tunney maybe could outbox them, hard to say. Jeffries would be a match for anybody. There were others who never were Champions that were very tough-Tom Sharkey,Bill Brennen,Luther McCarthy, Frank Moran etc.
White Shogun
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 6,285
The Rock.
And I don't mean Hasim Rahman, either, despite that big-ass lump on his forehead after the Holyfield fight.
And I don't mean Hasim Rahman, either, despite that big-ass lump on his forehead after the Holyfield fight.
One guy left out in the discussion so far is Ingemar Johansson. I don't think he was the best over an entire career, but for a short time he was as good as it gets. Ingemar won had the silver medal in the olympics after getting DQed in the gold medal match (another story). He went on to a professional career and was undeafted beating the top contenders before he took on the champion, Floyd Patterson. He knocked out Patterson in 3 rounds. Patterson regained the championship by KOing Ingemar in the rematch. An thrilling third match followed. Ingemar floored Patterson twice in the first round, but Patterson finally won the see-saw battle in round six - one of the best fights in heavyweight history. Ingemar went on to win a few more matches but then retired with his only two loses to Floyd Patterson. He had great power and many early round KO's - and exciting fighter.
White_Savage
Mentor
One thing guys:
There's no need to say "best White heavyweight", only "best heavyweight", because I believe Dempsey, Marciano, and possibly Jeffries at least could have defeated any other fighter, black or white, in their prime. Who is the greatest amongst these three, to decide this question would require a time-machine and a boxing ring. Saying "best white heavyweight" plays into the *******-Suprmecaist mindset.
There's no need to say "best White heavyweight", only "best heavyweight", because I believe Dempsey, Marciano, and possibly Jeffries at least could have defeated any other fighter, black or white, in their prime. Who is the greatest amongst these three, to decide this question would require a time-machine and a boxing ring. Saying "best white heavyweight" plays into the *******-Suprmecaist mindset.
Johansson was a good fighter but again he also was a playboy. His KO of Eddie Machen was great and he had Patterson down 7 times before the fight was stopped. Johansson would have been a millionaire even without boxing. He made a movie called "All the young men" set during the Korean War he played a Marine. I used the term best White Heavyweight because in my opinion Jeffries,Dempsey and Marciano could whip any negro that ever lived.
Vitali may well prove to be the best but he needs to win over 5 or 6 good fighters.
Vitali may well prove to be the best but he needs to win over 5 or 6 good fighters.
sport historian
Master
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2004
- Messages
- 2,988
I remember listening to Patterson-Johansson III in March 1961. I remember Patterson going down twice in the 1st round, then Ingo going down. Ingemar came in 12 pounds overweight and was running out of gas when stopped in the 6th. Funny thing, that fight in Miami drew over twice the crowd than Clay-Liston I did three years later in the same arena.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
I agree with White_Savage. It should be just greatest heavyweight, because these guys, especially Rocky, could and did beat any Negro they stepped in the ring with. Lets not forget he was the only undefeated Heavyweight Champ!
White_Savage
Mentor
Bigman: I dunno, you could be right. Jeffries is unfairly forgotten except for loosing to Johnson as a fat old man. He was NEVER down in his prime!
I despair of alot of these so called experts though, they put that bicycler Ali at the top of the list half the time. He belongs in the top ten-maybe...but to put him #1 or even top five is an insult. He doesn't even deserve #1 spot for black heavyweights.
I despair of alot of these so called experts though, they put that bicycler Ali at the top of the list half the time. He belongs in the top ten-maybe...but to put him #1 or even top five is an insult. He doesn't even deserve #1 spot for black heavyweights.
Ali is considered a great HW because of his besting Liston and Foreman. He had great performances against very large odds in those bouts and that is the kernal of his legacy. I would rate him in the top 5 of the 20th century but certainly not the top 2. He is now a media darling and it started in the mid sixties with the anti-vietnam movement.
Nowpicking who is second is a very difficult pick quite a few to choose from..... For me number 1 is clearly Joe Louis.. trying to be fair, that is just how I see it. Edited by: bigman
Nowpicking who is second is a very difficult pick quite a few to choose from..... For me number 1 is clearly Joe Louis.. trying to be fair, that is just how I see it. Edited by: bigman
Rocky Marciano was the best. I grew up near
his city. Marciano could win at all costs. He never lost!!!
Tunney had the long count deal with Al Capone in the audience.
When people are asked about the greatest heavyweight
of all time, the only white guy that would come up is Marciano.
his city. Marciano could win at all costs. He never lost!!!
Tunney had the long count deal with Al Capone in the audience.
When people are asked about the greatest heavyweight
of all time, the only white guy that would come up is Marciano.
sport historian
Master
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2004
- Messages
- 2,988
You can see Marciano's Title win in 1952 today, August 7, at 3 pm ET on ESPN Classic.
White_Savage
Mentor
"When people are asked about the greatest heavyweight of all time, the only white guy that would come up is Marciano."
That's because the Golden Age of boxing when it was dominated by White Fighters like Dempsey came before television. Rocky is the only great white who made it into the T.V. age before most American whites realized "Hey, I can make good money using my brain instead of getting it pounded to jelly."
Then there was the age of the black boxer, when blacks proved themselves so "superior" in the boxing ring-hey, I guess if by "superior" you mean they bothered to take boxing up, right on.
In 30 years, Ali, Frazier, and Tyson may be forgotten, and fans may be talking about the great Eastern Europeans of their generation.
That's because the Golden Age of boxing when it was dominated by White Fighters like Dempsey came before television. Rocky is the only great white who made it into the T.V. age before most American whites realized "Hey, I can make good money using my brain instead of getting it pounded to jelly."
Then there was the age of the black boxer, when blacks proved themselves so "superior" in the boxing ring-hey, I guess if by "superior" you mean they bothered to take boxing up, right on.
In 30 years, Ali, Frazier, and Tyson may be forgotten, and fans may be talking about the great Eastern Europeans of their generation.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
That last sentence is very possible White_Savage! I hope it happens too.
G
Guest
Guest
Look, you need to reexamine your take on Cooney. There is an entirely different way to look at him. (and, it goes without saying, as I'm the guy typing this, that it is what I happen to believe about Cooney.)
Listen, Cooney never had much to offer the boxing world. To look at him, at his awkward, gangly, unathletic frame, to the boxing historian, such a seeminglyimposing but also gawky and UNathletic frame bears a striking resemblance to Primo Carnera. Likewise, Cooney had the same type of jaw as Carnera...that is, one made of fine porcelain.
Now, looking at Cooney through these lenses, what we have to conclude is that Cooney's handlers and promoters did an EXCELLENT job of hyping him, of only allowing him to fight old men and guys who wouldn't/couldn't hit back, until they'd extracted their chunk of huge change from Cooney, whereupon they finally let the poor guy fight some real fighters, a la Spinks and Foreman, and looked what happened. At that point, his shyster handlers had cashed in, and so they fed him to the wolves after they'd built up his ego, and let him and everybody else actually believe he was a fighter.
Look, another thing about Cooney, which ties in to his UNathleticism, was the fact that he was slow. I don't know about you, but he was one of the slowest punching heavyweight challengers I have ever seen. The guy mailed his punches in 3rd class. So did Primo Carnera. With both Carnera and Cooney, it was all hype. And a lot of people took the bait and got all worked about guys who couldn't really fight.
Bottom line: a glass jaw andslow reflexes are not the makings of a good fighter. The whole Cooney thing was a marvellously hyped scam. So stop blaming it on his handlers--those guys did a GREAT jobselling
what they had. They took care of themselves well.
And don't give me the Norton KO thing. Norton was 75 years old by that time, and palookas like Scott LeDoux even were having their way with him by that time.
Don't get so hoodwinked by boxing promoters. It's all about perception. They get paid for manipulating it, just like politicians and the major media pundits.
Listen, Cooney never had much to offer the boxing world. To look at him, at his awkward, gangly, unathletic frame, to the boxing historian, such a seeminglyimposing but also gawky and UNathletic frame bears a striking resemblance to Primo Carnera. Likewise, Cooney had the same type of jaw as Carnera...that is, one made of fine porcelain.
Now, looking at Cooney through these lenses, what we have to conclude is that Cooney's handlers and promoters did an EXCELLENT job of hyping him, of only allowing him to fight old men and guys who wouldn't/couldn't hit back, until they'd extracted their chunk of huge change from Cooney, whereupon they finally let the poor guy fight some real fighters, a la Spinks and Foreman, and looked what happened. At that point, his shyster handlers had cashed in, and so they fed him to the wolves after they'd built up his ego, and let him and everybody else actually believe he was a fighter.
Look, another thing about Cooney, which ties in to his UNathleticism, was the fact that he was slow. I don't know about you, but he was one of the slowest punching heavyweight challengers I have ever seen. The guy mailed his punches in 3rd class. So did Primo Carnera. With both Carnera and Cooney, it was all hype. And a lot of people took the bait and got all worked about guys who couldn't really fight.
Bottom line: a glass jaw andslow reflexes are not the makings of a good fighter. The whole Cooney thing was a marvellously hyped scam. So stop blaming it on his handlers--those guys did a GREAT jobselling
And don't give me the Norton KO thing. Norton was 75 years old by that time, and palookas like Scott LeDoux even were having their way with him by that time.
Don't get so hoodwinked by boxing promoters. It's all about perception. They get paid for manipulating it, just like politicians and the major media pundits.
Edited by: Frank RizzoBart said:
Vitali never lost to anyone...he dropped out of a fight with chris byrd in which he had won every round...the lewis fight...well...you know what happened there...not to mention he is the only heavyweight champion to NEVER be knocked down in a fight throughout his career...and amazingly...he was never behind on a scorecard...combine that with the fact he has the highest knockout percentage of all time...i think he is the greatest of all time...
I pick Vitali.
There has to be some qualification for time. From watching boxing over the years, it's apparent to me that as time progresses the fighers get better, i.e., they get bigger, stronger, faster, and have better technique.
Joe Frazier gave Muhammed Ali hell, he even beat him the first time. Mike Tyson was much faster and hit harder than Frazier. How would Ali have coped with him? Ali's stick and move tactics gave the straight forward fighters of his era difficulty but were old news during the Tyson era.
One of George Foreman's punches would've lifted Rocky Marciano right off the ground. Don't get me wrong. I love Rocky, I love reading how he dominated his era, but a 190 lb fighter with a 67 inch reach would not cope into today's heavyweight division.
I think Vitali is phenominal. Outside of some injuries (cut against Lewis, shoulder against Byrd) he's been invincible.
There has to be some qualification for time. From watching boxing over the years, it's apparent to me that as time progresses the fighers get better, i.e., they get bigger, stronger, faster, and have better technique.
Joe Frazier gave Muhammed Ali hell, he even beat him the first time. Mike Tyson was much faster and hit harder than Frazier. How would Ali have coped with him? Ali's stick and move tactics gave the straight forward fighters of his era difficulty but were old news during the Tyson era.
One of George Foreman's punches would've lifted Rocky Marciano right off the ground. Don't get me wrong. I love Rocky, I love reading how he dominated his era, but a 190 lb fighter with a 67 inch reach would not cope into today's heavyweight division.
I think Vitali is phenominal. Outside of some injuries (cut against Lewis, shoulder against Byrd) he's been invincible.
G
Guest
Guest
Had Marciano grown up in this era, eating the beef we eat today which is loaded with bovine growth hormone, and withthis era's easyaccess to supplements and yes, even steroids, then a contemporary Marciano would have weighed 25 or 30 pounds more and would have been an inch taller. And you're right, I still don't know if such a bigger Marciano could take Foreman--maybe, maybe not.
But what I do know is this: Despite being a white guy, Marciano was less susceptible to cuts than Vitali. And this much is for SURE: Marciano was much less susceptible to shoulder and knee injuries. He had staying power, unlike this Vitali guy who came and went and now he's gone.
But what I do know is this: Despite being a white guy, Marciano was less susceptible to cuts than Vitali. And this much is for SURE: Marciano was much less susceptible to shoulder and knee injuries. He had staying power, unlike this Vitali guy who came and went and now he's gone.
Edited by: Frank Rizzofreedom1 said:
White_Savage
Mentor
"Had Marciano grown up in this era, eating the beef we eat today which is loaded with bovine growth hormone, and with this era's easy access to supplements and yes, even steroids, then a contemporary Marciano would have weighed 25 or 30 pounds more. And you're right, I still don't know if such a bigger Marciano could take Foreman--maybe, maybe not."
Someone with Marciano's reach and frame would be foolish to add enough to mass to fight as a HW instead of a cruiserweight in today's boxing world. As a cruiser or LHW, it wouldn't surprise me if a prime Marciano could remain undefeated in this day and age.
"But what I do know is this: Despite being a white guy, Marciano was less susceptible to cuts than Vitali."
Vitali Klitscko had exactly one fight stopped by a fluke of a bad cut. It can happen to anyone. Marciano took cuts that probably would have led to a TKO if he fought today. Many fighters of that era did. The rules are simply enforced differently today. Does it hurt the careers of some fighters who are otherwise excellent? Sure, but theres nothing to be done for it.
"And this much is for SURE: Marciano was much less susceptible to shoulder and knee injuries. He had staying power, unlike this Vitali guy who came and went and now he's gone."
Marciano was much younger the time he was fighting, much smaller, and really, his pro career didn't last much longer than Klitscko's. Not to knock Marciano, it was smart for him to retire when he did, just as it was smart for Klitscko. 37 is not too young to retire, as Marciano demonstrated against Louis...care to call the Brown Bomber a quitter, or argue that the loss against Rocky tarnished his record?
Klitscko's record can't be argued away. He knocked out a 91% of his opponents, often in the later rounds, one can't argue with that. I don't care who he was fighting, especially with today's big HWs, that means raw power. He was never knocked down-once again, especially with today's big HWs, that means an incredible chin. Marciano, tough as he was, got knocked down twice by much smaller beasts than the ones Klitscko faced. He was never behind on the score cards-he was a far better boxer than the other big men of boxing lore like Foreman. Those who view the past with rose-tinted glasses and those who believe the black is invincibly superior as a boxer, and those who have seen Rocky IV one too many times may with to discredit Klitschko, but the arguments just don't work.
Lots of boxers get cut, lots of boxers tear their rotator cuffs. The Gods of odds decreed that it happened to Vitali at the worst possible time.
Oh, and I'm very sorry to fans of classic boxing who don't think the modern HWs are as exciting as the fast cruiser-weight size fighters of old. But HWs have been getting bigger throughout the entire 20th century, all in all, bigger men win fights, a little late to start complaining about the RUSSIAN giants when we Americans have been training Black skyscrapers as fighters for 50 years.
Someone with Marciano's reach and frame would be foolish to add enough to mass to fight as a HW instead of a cruiserweight in today's boxing world. As a cruiser or LHW, it wouldn't surprise me if a prime Marciano could remain undefeated in this day and age.
"But what I do know is this: Despite being a white guy, Marciano was less susceptible to cuts than Vitali."
Vitali Klitscko had exactly one fight stopped by a fluke of a bad cut. It can happen to anyone. Marciano took cuts that probably would have led to a TKO if he fought today. Many fighters of that era did. The rules are simply enforced differently today. Does it hurt the careers of some fighters who are otherwise excellent? Sure, but theres nothing to be done for it.
"And this much is for SURE: Marciano was much less susceptible to shoulder and knee injuries. He had staying power, unlike this Vitali guy who came and went and now he's gone."
Marciano was much younger the time he was fighting, much smaller, and really, his pro career didn't last much longer than Klitscko's. Not to knock Marciano, it was smart for him to retire when he did, just as it was smart for Klitscko. 37 is not too young to retire, as Marciano demonstrated against Louis...care to call the Brown Bomber a quitter, or argue that the loss against Rocky tarnished his record?
Klitscko's record can't be argued away. He knocked out a 91% of his opponents, often in the later rounds, one can't argue with that. I don't care who he was fighting, especially with today's big HWs, that means raw power. He was never knocked down-once again, especially with today's big HWs, that means an incredible chin. Marciano, tough as he was, got knocked down twice by much smaller beasts than the ones Klitscko faced. He was never behind on the score cards-he was a far better boxer than the other big men of boxing lore like Foreman. Those who view the past with rose-tinted glasses and those who believe the black is invincibly superior as a boxer, and those who have seen Rocky IV one too many times may with to discredit Klitschko, but the arguments just don't work.
Lots of boxers get cut, lots of boxers tear their rotator cuffs. The Gods of odds decreed that it happened to Vitali at the worst possible time.
Oh, and I'm very sorry to fans of classic boxing who don't think the modern HWs are as exciting as the fast cruiser-weight size fighters of old. But HWs have been getting bigger throughout the entire 20th century, all in all, bigger men win fights, a little late to start complaining about the RUSSIAN giants when we Americans have been training Black skyscrapers as fighters for 50 years.