Greatest White Heavyweight of All

[White_Savage]

"To look at him, at his awkward, gangly, unathletic frame,"

Congratulations. You've just recited for us every stereotype every Caste system writer has ever dreamed up. Ali did not possess a Conanesque physique, nor have many black boxers. But when you're black, it magically becomes a "wiry" physique, instead of a gangling one.

It is difficult to explain how a man with slow reflexes was outpointing one of the most under-rated great boxers of all time, lightning fast Larry Holmes, until Holmes knocked him out. Glass jaw? Perhaps, but I notice White fighters who get knocked out even once always have "glass jaws" in the sports media, black fighters never seem to develop a glass jaw unless they are real tomato cans and make a proffession of getting knocked out.

I HATE Holmes for what he said about Marciano, but by all rights he should be regarded as a great fighter, the equal of Ali. Loosing to him is no shame, I'm only sorry that we Whites sent so few to boxing to for so many years. That's why Cooney was the best challenger we could muster at the time, the confluence of heart, stamina, ability, chin, and "X" factor is difficult to come up with when only a tiny percentage of your people are interested in boxing as a living.

 

[pt.guard2]

I agree WS.

Cooney did not have a overly muscled body...(he was 6'7 after all) but for someone with an "awkward, gangly, unathletic frame"....he was one of the hardest punchers in recent heavy weight history. Even Holmes admits that Cooney hit him harder in that fight than any other fighter he ever faced, with the possible exception of Ernie Shavers.

As for Cooney's performance that night.....although he was inexperienced, he fought his heart out and was actually ahead on two of the judges cards late into the fight.......in fact if the fight had been 12 rounds, instead of 15, he might have won. (I believe he also lost 3 points for low blows).

Most experts agree that if Cooney came out and tried to knock out Holmes, (like he did everyone else he fought up to that time) instead of trying to pace himself for a 15 round fight, he would have had a much better chance of winning.

He had a pretty good chin as well that night (his corner stopped the fight after the knockdown in the 13th round, but he was back on his feet) and absorbed everything Holmes threw at him and came back for more.

He was never the same after that fight.....and admitted that the guilt he felt "at letting people down" made him lose the zeal he had for fighting.

It pisses me off when I hear people refer to Cooney as a bum. Having fought a bit myself, I know the courage it takes for anyone to get into the ring....much less to fight at a championship level, which Cooney was able to do.... Edited by: pt.guard2

 

[Guest]

A Marciano growing up today, eating the growth-hormone-laden foods which are ubiquitous today, and eating today's vitamins, and perhaps taking today's drugs (you never know) would have not only weighed more, but would be bigger all around, and that includes height and reach. That was my point: I was talking if Marciano had been eating that modern stuff from childhood on, like everybody else (including Mr. Injury from the Ukraine), then such a modern Rocky would be bigger, taller, leaner, etc. You're talking about fat guys; I'm not.





[QUOTE=White_Savage
Someone with Marciano's reach and frame would be foolish to add enough to mass to fight as a HW instead of a cruiserweight in today's boxing world. As a cruiser or LHW, it wouldn't surprise me if a prime Marciano could remain undefeated in this day and age.

 

[Guest]

"To look at him, at his awkward, gangly, unathletic frame,"

Congratulations. You've just recited for us every stereotype every Caste system writer has ever dreamed up.








It has nothing to do with black or white.---Look, the guy had KNOCK KNEES for crying out loud. When he stepped around the ring, his knees bent inward toward each other. Are you telling me that KNOCK KNEES are athletic? Is that what you're saying? Have you ever seen pics of Primo Carnera? I'm telling you: Cooney = Carnera.

 

[Guest]

Baloney. That's what I'm trying to say to you. You need to think OUTSIDE the mainstream propaganda line that boxing promoters count on to be able to fleece you.


Look, if Cooney was such a "hard puncher," then name for me ONE FIGHT, just ONE MEASLY FIGHT where he knocked a guy out with one punch to the head. You know what, you CAN'T. Even the vaunted knockout of 75 year old Ken Norton was an accumulation of blows while the old man was suffering from rheumatism in one corner of the ring.


The ONLY one punch knockout you can point to fromCooney is that body shot he gave 72 year old Ron Lyle. But I'm telling you: BODY SHOTS CAN BE FAKED EASIER THAN HEAD SHOTS. The other fabled fight, against69 year old Jimmy Young, Cooney was hitting him at will all across the ring, but could never get the guy off his feet before the ref stepped in.


So which Cooney fight can you cite where he threw ONE PUNCHand snapped somebody's neck back and KO'd them right there on the spot? Cite just one.


You can't. You can't because Cooney's whole career was a fraud. It was a revival of the Primo Carnera fraud, and P.T. Barnum and Don King love having guys around who pay money to believe in such swindles.


Hey I got nothing against white athletes, and I would love nothing more than to see a white american heavyweight champ. But while I am rooting for it, I am also keeping my guard up to not get suckered in by a bunch of swindlers anymore. I know what an athlete looks like, white or black, and I also know what real one-punch knockout power looks like. And Cooney never demonstrated it.


Just because we root for white athletes doesn't mean we have to lower our standards. Be careful you're not just sticking up for Cooney simply because he was white.

I agree WS.

Cooney did not have a overly muscled body...(he was 6'7 after all) but for someone with an "awkward, gangly, unathletic frame"....he was one of the hardest punchers in recent heavy weight history. Edited by: Frank Rizzo

 

[white is right]

Cooney was not graceful, but he could punch. Yes Norton was chinny, but nobody even Shavers nearly decapitated him like Cooney did. Vitali as a heavyweight moved gracelessly but he could punch without really getting his body behind his shots. The old Foreman was the same thing. Not all punchers have to have the mechanics of a prime Tyson to be able to hit hard. Maybe Cooney was protected to get the big cheque, but he passed all of the tests to get it. Many of a white hopes failed those same tests ie Bobick.......

 

[Bart]

Even the vaunted knockout of 75 year old Ken Norton was an accumulation of blows while the old man was suffering from rheumatism in one corner of the ring.


The ONLY one punch knockout you can point to fromCooney is that body shot he gave 72 year old Ron Lyle. But I'm telling you: BODY SHOTS CAN BE FAKED EASIER THAN HEAD SHOTS. The other fabled fight, against69 year old Jimmy Young, Cooney was hitting him at will all across the ring, but could never get the guy off his feet before the ref stepped in.

Cooney won't be remembered as an all-time great, but you're being unduly harsh. He pulverized Ken Norton who was 37 not 75. Ron Lyle was probably in his upper 30's somewhere and was a very good fighter. Faked? Come on. Jimmy Young was 32 and an excellent fighter when Cooney beat him.


Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes, Buster Mathis and many other black fighters were far from being great physical specimens.

 

[Guest]

I repeat my challenge.


Name one fight where Cooney knocked somebody out with ONE PUNCH to the head.

Just one.


Guys with ostensible "knock out power" should be able to do that.


So name one. I'm waiting...


actually, on second thought, I'll go you one better: name one fight where Cooney even knocked somebody DOWN with ONE PUNCH to the head.


Alas--I have an easier one for you: Just admit we all got had by a group of slick NY promoters back in the 80s and move on. It'll make it harder for them to fool us the next time. Hey, I was one. I too got suckered. Didn't lose any money, but I got suckered. I used to be way big on Cooney. Then I did my homework, and did some boxing history research, and read up on Primo Carnera. The pattern was there to see. They even look somewhat alike!Edited by: Frank Rizzo

 

[White Shogun]

Hey Frank:

Why should we bother naming one fighter Cooney knocked down, when you've already pointed out that you don't think much of a guy who won 91% of his fights by KO, was never knocked down, and was never behind on the score cards in a fight? Apparently it takes some really dazzling statistics and fights to make the uh, cut, in your opinion.

There is this great site I know of where you can post your views about Marciano, Cooney, and Klitschko where your views will be right in step with the rest of the members of that forum. Its called www.fanball.com, ever heard of it?

Oh wait, you've already posted that info in this thread here on Caste Football.

My bad.

 

[white is right]

Carnera couldn't punch. If anything Valuev looks the second coming of Carnera. But Valuev has been beating tier 2 opponents in Europe. It's just that the American public have never seen seen him fight beyond a 30 second clip in 97'. So people will think he is Carnera, but he seems to be a better boxer over all then Carnera.

 

[Kaptain]

Rizzo, I don't disagree with you about not knowing what modern nutrition and drugs could do to add size. With that being said, even if Marciano was a bit larger I think he would have a lot of touble with Vitali's jab. I don't see how he could possibly win.

The Russians and Eastern Europeans aren't usually given title shots until late in their career due to the heavy influence on U.S. boxing and dollars it brings. Hopefully that is changing. Vitali endured a kickboxing career as well as a lengthy boxing career. It's a bit unfair to call him injury-prone because of a couple of injuries late in his career.

Cooney was certainly not a bum and was a hard puncher, but very unpolished as he had no bouts that lasted into the late rounds. He hit Holmes with body shots hard enough to end the fight twice but Holmes was saved by the bell once and by the referee once (referee guessed by Holmes reaction that the blow was low but replay showed otherwise). Cooney probably wasn't very athletic but who cares how high a slugger jumps or how fast he runs. Who would he run from?

Norton was knocked out with one punch - the ropes brutally held him up for several others that followed. I'm sure there were others, but Cooney had a short career and most of his fights were not televised. Thus, naming a one guy that Cooney knocked out is kinda an unfair question. Even so, I believe he won many fights in the first round albiet from suspect competetion.

The problem with the Cooney/Holmes fight has more to do with perception than anything. Cooney was mercilessly ridiculed for losing that fight instead of given credit for giving a great champion in the prime of his career the toughest fight he ever had. Because of the media's twist, many people thought and still think that Cooney beaten to a pulp every round of that fight. I know because that is what I had thought until I actually saw a replay of the fight a few years ago. Because of this misconception perpetrated by the media, the great white hope remained a laughing stock in the minds of most Americans.

The other part of the fight that was downplayed was that Cooney was basically an amatuer compared to the well-polished Holmes. The fight was really taken on too soon in Cooney's career. In light of that it's pretty remarkable that he did as well as he did. On the other hand, Cooney didn't seem too dedicated to the sport of boxing and may have faded all on his own anyway. The point is that one unpolished white guy nearly took the seemingly unbeatable Holmes head-off and in the end the media just collectively said "see I told you a white guy couldn't ever be heavyweight champion again". I wonder what they think now?

 

[Bart]

Cooney probably wasn't very athletic but who cares how high a slugger jumps or how fast he runs. Who would he run from?

Kaptain, you covered a lot of ground and explained the situation very well. By the way, why is the term UNATHLETIC so readily applied to Cooney? Has anyone seen Joe Frazier's performance in the Superstars Competition? He was truly pathetic. He should be the poster boy for unathletic boxers. Come to think of it cumbersome George Foreman would have placed well behind Joe.

 

[freedom1]

Cooney knocked out Dino Dennis with one punch. Dennis was known for his chin and went the distance with George Foreman.

 

[Guest]

I already told you. Because Cooney had KNOCK KNEES. His knees bent inward when he walked. Do YOU call that athletic?



[/QUOTE]


By the way, why is the term UNATHLETIC so readily applied to Cooney? Has anyone seen Joe Frazier's performance in the Superstars Competition? He was truly pathetic. He should be the poster boy for unathletic boxers. Come to think of it cumbersome George Foreman would have placed well behind Joe.

 

[freedom1]

I remember watching Cooney/Holmes. Cooney was definitely winning that fight when it got stopped in the 13th. The announcers commented that they had never seen Holmes so determined. Cooney's strategy sucked. He should've forgotten about all that "go the distance" stuff and just tore into Holmes (Tommy Morrison made the same mistake when he tried to box with the taller Lennox Lewis). You have to go with what you're good at, what got you there. And I don't think Cooney was that great, I just don't think Holmes was either.

Now Marciano, that's another story. I had made an earlier post where I said I don't think he'd do well against today's heavies because of the size differential, but pound for pound, inch for inch, I believe he's one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Holmes proved what a low class goon he was when he made those comments about Marciano. Holmes was going for his 49th straight victory (would've tied Rocky) when he lost to Michael Spinks. Thank God there is some justice in this world.

 

[Guest]

Oh, but if you listened to the boxing promoters AT THAT TIME, you'd have to say Carnera could punch a whole through a brick wall. They built him up for the suckers, same as they did with Cooney.


Look, just because you want to root for white fighters doesn't mean you have to root for every one of them. If you smell a rat you ought to be able to step back and say, "Hey, there's a rat there." And I'm telling you, what's more like a rat than a boxing promoter? Let's root for whitey, but let's not be guileless. Don't be a sucker. Don't be that guy.


Vitali would have kicked the crap out of Cooney. So would have Jerry Quarry. So would have Marciano. So would have Ingemar Johanneson, probably. Geez,for that matter, even paper mache-jawed Tommy Morrison would stand a better than average shot at Cooney, because at least Morrison had some hand speed.


If you want to pick a white fighter, that's great. I want to also. But first let's make sure he's actually a fighter first.

Carnera couldn't punch. If anything Valuev looks the second coming of Carnera. But Valuev has been beating tier 2 opponents in Europe. It's just that the American public have never seen seen him fight beyond a 30 second clip in 97'. So people will think he is Carnera, but he seems to be a better boxer over all then Carnera.

Edited by: Frank Rizzo

 

[Bart]

I already told you. Because Cooney had KNOCK KNEES. His knees bent inward when he walked. Do YOU call that athletic?

I admit to being ignorant as to the shape of Cooney's legs. But as for the condition of being knock-kneed or bending inward, you'd be surprised how many fine athletes fit that description. John Elway was certainly somewhat knock-kneedas is Vince Young. Jerry Quarry also appeared to be slightly so. I remember a few Latino baseball players over the years, but can't think of their names at the moment. Bob Lanier and Willis Reed also were quite knock-kneed.Edited by: Bart

 

[Kaptain]

Cooney probably wasn't very athletic but who cares how high a slugger jumps or how fast he runs. Who would he run from?

Kaptain,  you covered a lot of ground and explained the situation very well. By the way,  why is the term UNATHLETIC so readily applied to Cooney?  Has anyone seen Joe Frazier's performance in the Superstars Competition? He was truly pathetic. He should be the poster boy for unathletic boxers. Come to think of it cumbersome George Foreman would have placed well behind Joe.

Bart funny you should mention the superstars competition. I nearly posted exactly the same observation but figured no one had seen it. I watched the competition with my dad when I was a kid and remember him explaining to me that being athletic wasn't really important in boxing and that the boxers always finished dead last.

 

[White Shogun]

Geez, for that matter, even paper mache-jawed Tommy Morrison would stand a better than average shot at Cooney, because at least Morrison had some hand speed.

Of course, after reading these comments about The Duke I had to visit his boxrec site just to see what might have caused him to be referred to as the 'mache-jawed' Tommy Morrison by Rizzo. I watched many of his fights and never once did the thought enter my mind that he had a glass jaw. But let's see what the record tells us:

Morrison had only three losses on his record, all by TKO. He lost to Lennox Lewis, Michael Bennt, and Ray Mercer. Lewis won 32 of his 41 fights by T/KO; Mercer, 25 of 34. These guys are supposed to be heavy handed fighters, so I don't understand how losing to one of them by TKO means one's jaw is of 'mache.' Bennt's record is sparse; he only fought once more after beating Morrison and that was a defeat to Herbie Hide.

On the other hand, Morrison knocked out Razor Ruddock, Carl "The Truth" Williams, Joe Hipp, Pinklon Thomas, and beat Big George Foreman by UD. In the Joe Hipp fight, Morrison suffered both a broken jaw and a broken hand, but went on to KO Hipp in the 9th!

You rarely hear of black fighters who lose by T/KO's referred to as having jaws of glass or 'mache,' even when they've been put on their ass numerous times. Rahman comes immediately to mind, as does Lennox Lewis himself to a lesser extent.

If you want to pick a white fighter, that's great. I want to also. But first let's make sure he's actually a fighter first.

How about we make sure that a white fighter actually has a 'mache' chin before we give him that label. Edited by: White Shogun

 

[pt.guard2]

Don't buy the comparison between Carnera and Cooney.

Carnera was controlled by organized crime and there is evidence to suggest that many of his fights were fixed.

Although Cooney's handlers may have protected him from taking on the tough fights he needed to fight and over matched him against Holmes so they could cash in on the big money, there is no evidence that Cooney fought any fixed fights.

Not suggesting that Cooney was a "great heavy weight"....just saying that he was a hard punching heavyweight who fought his heart out against Holmes and came closer than anyone else to beating Homes in his prime.

 

[White_Savage]

Thing is, it's a myth about people being so much larger nowadays, especially as compared to the 1950s. Hell, the average heigth for Viking era Scandanavian males was 5'8-what is it for modern American males, 5'9 or something? Not that big a difference. And I don't believe that if you went back in time and grabbed up an infant Marciano and gave him all the growth hormone and steroids in the world he'd be big enough to hang with today's heavies. And if he did get that big, would he be the same fighter?

I really think a few fighters like Carnera put a stink on extra-large heavies, and it took until modern times to see really big men who have been thoroughly groomed in the art of boxing by trainers who took them seriously.

What the hell does being knock-kneed have to do with any damn thing, especially being a boxer for goodness sakes? Cooney went rounds with Larry Holmes. 95% of the White or Black boxers who ever lived couldn't have done that. End of discussion.

 

[White Shogun]

What does it say about Larry Holmes that it took him so many rounds to knock out an unathletic white boy with knock knees? If Cooney isn't that great, Larry Holmes isn't that great, either. Holmes should have knocked him out in the first round, considering how poor an athlete was the knock-kneed, over-rated white boy Cooney compared to the uber-athlete heavyweight champion of the world Larry Holmes.

 

[white is right]

Cooney probably wasn't very athletic but who cares how high a slugger jumps or how fast he runs. Who would he run from?

Kaptain, you covered a lot of ground and explained the situation very well. By the way, why is the term UNATHLETIC so readily applied to Cooney? Has anyone seen Joe Frazier's performance in the Superstars Competition? He was truly pathetic. He should be the poster boy for unathletic boxers. Come to think of it cumbersome George Foreman would have placed well behind Joe.

Bart funny you should mention the superstars competition. I nearly posted exactly the same observation but figured no one had seen it. I watched the competition with my dad when I was a kid and remember him explaining to me that being athletic wasn't really important in boxing and that the boxers always finished dead last.

Joe Frazier nearly drowned on national tv, doing the crawl for the superstars competition....

 

[freedom1]

Yeah, I agree that calling Morrison glass jawed is an exaggeration and typical of the racial double standards that have been brainwashed into the public's mind. The punches Mercer through at him would've uprooted a tree, Lewis cut him to the point where he couldn't see and Bent knocked him down, not out (there was a 3 knockdown rule in that fight).

Also, Cooney hit damn hard. He knocked out Ron Lyle with a body punch, and Dino Dennis with a single left hook (Dennis was rock jawed and went the distance with Foreman). He was a poorly managed fighter who took a lot of unfair criticism. Early on, he almost signed with Cus D'amato.

 

[Bart]

Have you ever seen pics of Primo Carnera? I'm telling you: Cooney = Carnera.

Then Cooney must have been apowerfully built man.Primo had a very impressive physique for a man of his his height. Lifting weightswas not yet popular and roids didn't exist.