Greatest White Heavyweight of All

[White Shogun]

also...i liked tommy morrison...and maybe he didnt have a GLASS jaw...but i think his jaw was as weak as someone like lennox lewis...who had an incredibly overrated jaw...(even though he was knocked out 2 times) I liked tommy...but compared to a guy like Vitali or Rocky...well...he didnt measure up to me and neither did cooney

Well, that's more like it. I can find agreement with you in this post. What I've always objected to is people complaining guys like Morrison have chins of china but give guys like Lewis and Rahman a free pass when it comes to being KO'd.

And of course, since I believe that Vitali Klitschko is one of the greatest boxers of all time, no, I don't think Tommy Morrison is on his level. But then again, how many men are, black or white?

EDITED TO ADD: Great minds think alike. Savage beat me to a response, essentially we're saying the same thing. Edited by: White Shogun

 

[JD074]

But I don't think its fair to tell anyone here that they cannot support a white athlete, any white athlete, for whatever reasons they choose. This is one of the only places possible for us to do so.

Exactly!!!</font>

Why can't more people around here understand this??? This is the one place where we can celebrate white athletes, and people still give us sh*t about it. Leave us alone!!!

 

[white tornado]

I think we should support all white athlets regardless of talent unless the athlete is a real bad person. Just because one of our athlets might not be that good we should not make fun of them like every one else does. But we need to make acurate assesments of talent. We all want every white athlete to succed and this leeds some one this site to exagerat how good some athletes are. People new to this site who might be come over to our side might not take us sereously if we say every white athlete could be an all pro. We have enough evedance of great athlets who are held down by the system on this site to convince any reasonable person, we don't need to exagerate at all.

 

[White Shogun]

I think we should support all white athlets regardless of talent unless the athlete is a real bad person. Just because one of our athlets might not be that good we should not make fun of them like every one else does. But we need to make acurate assesments of talent. We all want every white athlete to succed and this leeds some one this site to exagerat how good some athletes are. People new to this site who might be come over to our side might not take us sereously if we say every white athlete could be an all pro. We have enough evedance of great athlets who are held down by the system on this site to convince any reasonable person, we don't need to exagerate at all.

So far, I don't think we've exaggerated anyone's talents, especially in this thread. Nobody said Tommy Morrison was the greatest white fighter since Marciano. I simply objected to his being labeled as 'mache-jawed,' when there are plenty of black fighters with more suspect chins than he for whom that label is never applied.

And discussing the size of Carnera's head is about as frivolous as criticism can get.

What's more, no one insisted that these guys refrain from posting their negative comments about these men. The resistance in this thread and the insistence to 'back off' has been for those who have DEFENDED these men, not those who criticized them in the first place.

I don't come to Caste Football to be told to be quiet when I support a white athlete. Even one as gangly and awkward as Cooney or as big headed as Carnera or as china-chinned as Tommy Morrison.

 

[white tornado]

I never told anyone to be quiet, and I did not say we should not suport white athletes. Too the contrary I think we should support every white athlete.

I knew when I wrote it some people would critisies me but I said what I thought because I want to help this site. So don't think for a minite I'm not as suportive of our people as every one else on this site.

 

[white tornado]

What's more, no one insisted that these guys refrain from posting their negative comments about these men. The resistance in this thread and the insistence to 'back off' has been for those who have DEFENDED these men, not those who criticized them in the first place.


I said we should not critizies white athletes just be realistic about their talent.

And I don't think people exagerat the talent of white athlets alot on this site but we have so many good athlets we don't need to exagerate at all.

 

[White Shogun]

I never told anyone to be quiet, and I did not say we should not suport white athletes. Too the contrary I think we should support every white athlete.

I knew when I wrote it some people would critisies me but I said what I thought because I want to help this site. So don't think for a minite I'm not as suportive of our people as every one else on this site.

No,no, not you, WT, it was someone else. I was just clarifying that defending an athlete against a particular criticism doesn't necessarily mean we think he is the greatest of all time. Nor should we be told to refrain from defending a white athlete here at Caste Football. I used your post as a spring board for my thoughts on the subject. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[white tornado]

My bad White Shogun. If were not going to defend white athlets no one is.

 

[Triad]

After reading the above Tommy Morrison bashing, I thought I would look at his record.
--------------------------------------------------------

Tommy Morrison's professional record was 46 - 3- 1 , with 40 KNOCKOUTS. Notable victories over legitimate heavyweights included: Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams, Razor Ruddock, and James Q. Tillis, George Foreman, Joe Hipp. All received title shots.

His losses were to Lennox Lewis, Ray Mercer, and Michael Bentt. Even with his "glass" chin he was able to get up after a 1st round knockdown and KO Ruddock. The same Ruddock that Tyson said hit like an F'N Mule.

Who is M. Bentt? He won four New York City Golden Gloves titles and five USA Amateur Boxing championships. Both accomplishments remain unprecedented. He only fought once after the Morrison fight due to a brain injury in his next fight. He's the only non legit loss on Morrison's record.

So after fighting 50 professional heavyweight fights in an era that is supposed to be so much better than our present day boxers and suffering only 3 defeats, he is considered a phony and not a legitimate heavyweight. What a load of BS.

He retired at age 27 before many boxers hit their prime. He held the IBC and WBO titles in his short career which lasted a little over 7 years : 50 fights in less than 8 years. His record is very good, if his skin was darker he may even be considered great.

 

[White Shogun]

The same Ruddock that Tyson said hit like an F'N Mule.

I saw that fight in an auditorium before the advent of PPV. It was hilarious listening to Mike Tyson in the post-fight interview talk about Ruddock in his baby-like voice, punching like a f***ing mule kick.

Thanks for doing the research on Bentt. I mentioned him in my post about Morrison's record, too, but didn't know anything about him. Sounds like he, too, might have been a great one.

 

[Bart]

So after fighting 50 professional heavyweight fights in an era that is supposed to be so much better than our present day boxers and suffering only 3 defeats, he is considered a phony and not a legitimate heavyweight. What a load of BS.

He retired at age 27 before many boxers hit their prime. He held the IBC and WBO titles in his short career which lasted a little over 7 years : 50 fights in less than 8 years. His record is very good, if his skin was darker he may even be considered great.

Excellent post, very informative! I didn't realize he had that many fights. The way he gets treated you'd think his record was 8-12 getting KO'd left and right.

 

[White Shogun]

Excellent post, very informative! I didn't realize he had that many fights. The way he gets treated you'd think his record was 8-12 getting KO'd left and right.

I know! Amazing, isn't it? I always thought of Morrison as a good heavyweight. I enjoyed watching his fights when I was a young man. Its disappointing to me that the most negative things I've ever read about Morrison's career were right here on Caste Football, written by white men who ostensibly support white athletes.

 

[Triad]

Its disappointing to me that the most negative things I've ever read about Morrison's career were right here on Caste Football, written by white men who ostensibly support white athletes.

Misinformed people can post here as well. Reading their posts I assumed Morrison's record would be around .500 even though I couldn't remember him losing that much.

It's OK for an American white to be a bad ass, too.
His stats aren't that far off from Wladimir's (46-3, 41 KO's) or Vitali's impressive numbers (35-2, 34 KO's). Considering how he was partying outside of the ring his accomplishments are remarkable. He served time in prison, admitted to using steroids, and battled alcohol and drug abuse. So he's no saint but certainly no chump, either. Edited by: Triad

 

[jcolec02]

are you f**king crazy??? your comparing tommy morrison to a fighter (Vitali Klitschko) who was never knocked down...never behind on a scorecard and has the highest knockout percentage of all time??? those 2 losses on his record were both flukes...you know what...im white and so is vitali...so you can say sh*t about this post!!! if tommy morrison got in the ring with vitali it would look like that kirk johnson fight klitschko had...and also...white tornado was right...if we idolize every fighter that comes along just because he is white...even if he isnt great...all YOUR doing is hurting white athletes because when you tell people about a REAL great fighter...THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BELIVE YOU!!! they are just going to laugh and say "your just sayin that cuz he is white"...look...tommy morrison was not an all time great...but it is true that he got alot of critcism about his chin and other things probably because he is white...HOWEVER...im not going to say he had a good chin...just like im not going to say mike tyson...lennox lewis OR Wladimir Klitschko has one either...Wlad is my favorite current heavywieght but im not going to lie to my self and say he...or one of my former favorite fighters...lennox lewis...has a good chin either...when you get knocked out by fringe contenders regardless of race...well...I for one aint gonna brag about your chin(Lennox Lewis - KO by Oliver Mccall and Hasim Rahman) (Mike Tyson - KO by Buster Douglas, Danny Williamson, Lennox Lewis.,ect.)
(Wladimir Klitschko - KO by Lamon Brewster, Corrie Sanders)

 

[jcolec02]

also...i have heard alot of you criticize people like J-Will of the NBA Jeremy Shockey and plenty of others because you dont like the way they talk or the way they dress or play or whatever the reason. Im cool with that..but dont tell me I cant criticize a white athlete...im just as white and proud as any of you but over hyping white athletes is just going to hurt this cause in the long run...and ill leave you with this...READ ANY OF MY POSTS...especially about Vitali Klitschko or Rocky Marciano and I hyped up those 2 fighters more than anyone else ive seen on this sight...BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT!!! Vitali Klitschko (by all intensive purposes) was undefeated...WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN IN HIS CAREER...is the only heavyweight champion in history to accomplish this...highest knockout percentage of all time...and was never behind on a scorecard...Rocky Marciano...well...49-0 (45 KO's) speaks for itself...so before you decide to call me a f**king troll or some sh*t...do a little research on my posts on this site especially the boxing forum...

 

[jcolec02]

...one last thing...I understand you think its unfair to criticize Morrison because of the caste system in this country...but i assure you...that has nothing to do with the reason i criticized him...I NEVER SAID he had a glass jaw...i just said he wasnt an all time great...

 

[White Shogun]

jcolec02:
Spare us the expletive laden diatribe. You're not paying attention to what has been said.

Nobody here said Morrison or Cooney were as good as Dempsey or Marciano.

Jcole: It's the double standard I don't like. Tommy Morrison WAS a good fighter. You don't get where he is without being one.

And of course, since I believe that Vitali Klitschko is one of the greatest boxers of all time, no, I don't think Tommy Morrison is on his level.emphasis added

Nobody said Tommy Morrison was the greatest white fighter since Marciano. I simply objected to his being labeled as 'mache-jawed,' when there are plenty of black fighters with more suspect chins than he for whom that label is never applied.

No one said Morrison is as good as Vitali. If you actually took the time to read what has been said, you'd have noticed that.

What bugs the hell out of us here is that guys like Morrison are labeled as glass-jawed when the black men you mentioned - Lewis, Rahman, Williamson - never or rarely ever have that label applied to them.

What's more, 'idolizing' Tommy Morrison is a far cry from saying we idolize 'every fighter because he's white.' I don't think Tex Cobb was that great a fighter, although he could take a helluva beating. I don't think Corrie Sanders did enough with what he had to be considered more than a journeyman. In my opinion, the jury is still out on Joe Mesi, Brian Minto, Tye Fields, and others. Doesn't mean that I can't or won't root for them, but WANTING someone to win is not the same as thinking they WILL win.

And finally, no one is asking YOU, jcolec02, to say "MORRISON HAD A GREAT CHIN." There are no points being scored and there is no win or lose in this discussion. I don't care if you don't like Morrison, that's your prerogative. But I do appreciate the fact that you are willing to call out black guys like Lewis, et al, as having weak chins as well. You're on much uh, stronger, ground by doing so in my opinion, and do not come off as a 'white hater' by being fair with your criticism.

So, just so we're clear, I'm not f***ing crazy, and for the record, I don't think you are, either. I just wish you would refrain from putting words in my mouth (perhaps others feel the same) and setting up straw men to knock down.

 

[White Shogun]

...one last thing...I understand you think its unfair to criticize Morrison because of the caste system in this country...but i assure you...that has nothing to do with the reason i criticized him...I NEVER SAID he had a glass jaw...i just said he wasnt an all time great...

Then frankly, I don't understand the hullabaloo, lol, 'cause I don't think anyone else around here said he was an all time great, either. Feel free to criticize Morrison as you like, but do it the way you have done - leveling the criticism at both black and white fighters who share the same flaw. You have been good about that and it is much appreciated.

What are we arguing about again?

 

[Don Wassall]

I think the post about "allowing stupid people to post at CF" was an unfortunate choice of words unless it was applied solely to our trolls. I don't follow boxing closely and learn a lot from everyone who posts in the boxing forum. I hope we can all basically agree that Morrison, someone I did follow, was a very good boxer but not an all time greatand that he took the usual grieffrom the media that all whites in "black" sports or positions within "black" sports seem to receive.

 

[jcolec02]

lol!!!

 

[jcolec02]

i understand your frustration with the media stereotype of tommy morrison having a glass jaw...but that doesnt mean just cuz there is a stereotype that should be broken that we should deny when someone has a flaw (black or white) and for the record hasim rahman has the weakest chin ive ever seen haha!

 

[Triad]

I'll edit the controversial comment although I've read much worse.

A guy who is on the site to denigrate a few selected white fighters and is probably just having fun "trolling" on the site is said to have good points.

1. To look at him [Cooney], at his awkward, gangly, unathletic frame, to the boxing historian, such a seemingly imposing but also gawky and UNathletic frame bears a striking resemblance to Primo Carnera. Likewise, Cooney had the same type of jaw as Carnera...that is, one made of fine porcelain.

2. Geez, for that matter, even paper mache-jawed Tommy Morrison would stand a better than average shot at Cooney, because at least Morrison had some hand speed

3. Look, I don't know if you noticed or not, but if you touched Tommy Gunn Morrison on the chin with a feather, his eyes would roll up in the back of his head, and the next thing you know, you better be reaching for the smelling salts.

4. But if you can't admit that Tommy Morrison had a weak chin, then you have a serious bigtime problem calling a spade a spade, bro.

LAY OFF RIZZO!!! he is making good points...dont cheer for sorry ass fighters just cuz there white...i LOVE the Klitschko's and Ricky Hatton and Joe Cazaghe, and all the other GREAT white fighters but cmon...dont cheer for white fighters like tommy morrision ...i mean he had alot of talent and had the flash and the look and all that but he did have a suspect chin...so lay off of rizzo cuz he does make a good point....

AND a little later...

I NEVER SAID he had a glass jaw...i just said he wasnt an all time great...

Rizzo went out of his way to attack Morrison's record and chin and you like his points, can we not infer you agree with those points. "I never said he had a glass jaw", no not directly, but you agree with Rizzo's talking points and then go on to say he [Morrison] is a sorry ass fighter and we shouldn't cheer for him. Morrison was about the only white fighter you could cheer for in the late 1980's -early 1990's.

There is a huge difference between being an all time great and not being very good. I'm not going to attack Vitali's record but Morrison's is statistically comparable. Vitali won 35 of 37 fights (.945, 91.9% KO's), Morrison won 46 of 50 fights (.920, 80% KO's). One is an all-time great and the other a sorry ass fighter?

 

[jcolec02]

no but he isnt on vitali's level...by the way did anyone catch that jim rome bullsh*t...they mentioned the fact that all heavyweight champions are russians but then they said they all sucked and no one cared about boxing!!!!

if you catch the replay you will most certainly get upset as was i...and lets drop this discussion about morrison please...

 

[JD074]

but dont tell me I cant criticize a white athlete...

We're not. We're saying don't criticize US for celebrating a white athlete. We can like whatever white athlete we want for whatever reason. And you're free to disagree.

 

[speedster]

The Michael Bentt fight was one Tommy should not have lost.It was an HBO showcase title fight to get Morrison ready for his fight with Lennox Lewis.John Brown,Tommy's trainer at the time,totally did not want this fight,but most people thought it would be a cakewalk.Tommy's first punch hurt Bentt and Morrison went in for the kill throwing these really wide shots.Only the ropes kept Bentt up after another of Tommy's shots so at that point Bentt figured a good defence is a good offence and fired back.A Morrison right just missed and Bentt countered with a right of his own and BOOM!Two knockdowns later and it was over.Sloppy effort by the Duke.Years later Tommy was asked what he could do over in his career and he replied "To see how many times I could knock Michael Bentt down in a minute".He still has no respect for the man.