Marciano was unbeaten in 49 pro fights-Clay was overrated-this is the same Clay who was decked by 186lb Henry Cooper was given gift wins over Jimmy Young,Ernie Shavers,Doug Jones and Ken 'glass jaw' Norton.He was beaten by short fat Joe Frazier and skinny Leon Spinks.Joe Louis was Ko'd in his prime by Max Schemling and was given a gift win over Tommy Farr.You don't have Jim Jeffries on your list at all?Jack Johnson was beat by Marvin Hart and Jess Willard.Johnson ducked the black fighters when he was Champion because he knew there was no money in fighting them same as the white Champs knew. Lewis was ko'd twice and got out of boxing rather then fight Vitali.Brian Nielsson beat Holmes! Liston was a coward if you hit him back he'd quit on his stool.Tyson came along during the 1980's when the heavyweight class had no real talent.Holyfield lost to Bowe who Golota beat into early retirement!!Jim Jeffries,Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano were the best.Rocky ko'd Joe Louis and when Louis died a pennyless bum Schemling paid his funeral bills.Marciano paid Joe's bills during his stay at the mental ward.Your opinions are are based on race not facts!!
Europeans in boxing
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
I don't think you read an earlier post correctly Godking.Gary stated that Michalczewski had never been stopped,which is true,but he did lose to one of Roy Jones' victims,which happened to be Julio Gonzalez by a close,but fair 12 round decision.Richard Hall is the opponent you talked about ouboxing Dariusz and Roy decked in the first round,but Jones didn't get the TKO until round 11.Richard Hall also did not outbox the Tiger.Their first fight was close and it was a cut sustained by Hall that led to the fight being stopped.In the rematch it was more of the same,close but Michalczewski proving too tough for Hall and the fight ended with Dariusz scoring a late round TKO.As far as a fight between Jones and Dariusz goes it would have been interesting.I think Jones probably would have won the fight but Dariusz woud have taken Jones into battle,it would have been rough,too rough for Jones who prefers his opponents to give him too much respect to the pointwhere they are only happy to go the distance,Michalczewski would have come to win.Jones wouldn't have been able to pose and talk about how great he is to Larry Merchant in the post-fight interview,which is part of his schtick.He probably would have needed some medical attention.
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Time to educate you againGary said:
Marciano beat a 37 year old WAY past his prime Joe Louis
Ali fought and beat Much better opponents then Marciano most of Ali's opponets where actually in their prime.
Marciano went 49-0 so what ?? Holmes could have been 50 - 0 but he was robbed in the Spinks fights
Nielson won a controversial victory over a Holmes that was almost 50 !
You did see what Louis did to Schmelling in the second fight ??
Gift over Tommy Farr
Jim Jeffries RAN from Jack Johnson and when he finally fought him was HUMILIATED and dont tell me that the win was not legit since you claim that wins over a 37 year old Joe louis or a close to 50 years old Holmes are legit. Jack Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard and many still claim that Johnson took a dive. And b.t.w Jim Jeffries does belong on any top 10 list.
Dempsey ducked Harry Wills
Lewis was Ko'd twice avenged both defeats . Vitali QUIT against byrd and could not beat a hog fat lazy lennox lewis.
Liston vs Marciano would have looked like Foreman vs Frazier.
Tyson was physically the best HW of all times he had everything except height mentally he was weak though. But Tyson would still have DESTROYED Dempsey or Tunney .
Holyfield is a top ten HW Golota getting DQ agaisnt a past prime Bowe does not detract from that.
That is the end of todays lesson
Dont try to argue boxing with someone who actually knows boxing
You would get laughed of ever respectable boxing forum out there
I am in a hurry now so I'll give you your lesson tommorrow.I didn't get on this site to give credit to blacks. Espn ,Max Kellerman and the networks will give us enough of that.Your on the wrong site if you expect me to say Clay was the best to please you,Al Sharpton and the NAACP.I remember you from eastside where you never give white fighters any crediti.I'll end with this if Bryd ever gets some gonads and wants to fight Vitali you takeBryd and I'll take Vitali remember what Wlad did toBryd?it was a shame what he did to the bum. I forgot more about boxing than you'll ever know.Now go watch cartoons.Marciano would school Clay.If 186 lb Cooper could drop this overrated clown what would250lbVitali do to him.Clay should be happy there was an iron curtain when he was fighting or he would have had to fight these Russians and Eastern Europeans.
Godking, we are all now just a little dumber from having read your post. I enjoy the banter though. Lennox Lewis #4? He wasn't suffering from old age when Vitali slapped him around. Who did Marciano duck? Undefeated and undisputed during an age when boxing was very popular. He never let anyone else in boxing make a name for themself because he beat them the first time. Ali lost too many to be considered #2. Golota vs. Bowe was a championship fight not past his prime but getting beat silly two fights in a row will make you past your prime.
Steroided up 230 lbs Mike tyson probably would have destroyed tunney and anybody else of that time. Vitali coundn't beat Louis? short Joe Frazier? Times have changed and comparing the much larger heavyweights we have today to past heavyweights is pointless.
I think the heavyweight division is better than it has been in the last 20 years because of the influx of international boxers that previously were not around.
Steroided up 230 lbs Mike tyson probably would have destroyed tunney and anybody else of that time. Vitali coundn't beat Louis? short Joe Frazier? Times have changed and comparing the much larger heavyweights we have today to past heavyweights is pointless.
I think the heavyweight division is better than it has been in the last 20 years because of the influx of international boxers that previously were not around.
How much do you all think money has to do with Roy Jones Jr.
not wanting to go to Europe? Would he have been paid
enough to make it worthwhile? I don't know, I'm just
wondering.
I want to see Vitali fight Byrd and/ or Toney. They've both
publicly insulted Vitali and I would love to see him put either
one of them on the canvas.
not wanting to go to Europe? Would he have been paid
enough to make it worthwhile? I don't know, I'm just
wondering.
I want to see Vitali fight Byrd and/ or Toney. They've both
publicly insulted Vitali and I would love to see him put either
one of them on the canvas.
kevin
Guru
i believe vatli will beat lewis in a rematch. he won four of the six rounds and would have won if they didn't stop the fight. After the fight lewis said that he would give him arematch right in front of the camera and then said he was going top retire. Vaatli will beat james toney also . toney i consider to be the poor mans chris byrd. He fights alot of guys that aren't challened. valtli won evey round agianst byrd, However injured his shoulder and conldn't continue.
kevin
Guru
Right now i feel that american boxers just aren't preforming well at all. the only one in the olympics that look impressive was wards. i haven't seen a heavyweight that has looked the leaste bit impessive. ruiz look like a wrestler, rohman is overweight and couldn't beat ruiz, holyfield and tyson need to retire, toney hasn't beaten anyone besides a washed up holyfield, mcline has impressive size but tires to easily, mesi is hurt, barrett could beat an injured mesi. byrd is a good fighter but not great. all of his mathces are close. i thought he lost to both Golata and oquendo. neither guy has championship quality. It seems like the best heavyweights are coming fro either nigera or eastern europe. fighters like peter simon, nichlay valeau, vatali, russilan, to name just a few.
kevin
Guru
Listen was corupt he took a dive in the second ali fight, and even ali new it. he could have been a good fighter but drugs and coruption were a major problem with him. Holms could have been undeafted if i didn't stay in so long. i think the tyson fight ruined his career as it did for spinks. holyfield is really ruiing his career by doing the same ting these guys did. i think if he keeps this up it will destroy his legacy.
kevin
Guru
i would like to see jones/ tyson. neither one of them is really a title contender anymore , and most likely it wouldn't be a good fight, either jones would circle around the ring or tyson would knock out jones in the first.
kevin
Guru
a complement to vatali. he does have good hand speed and a nce jab. he looks stiff but has great form he is tough to get in on and manages to keep people away. i beleive with the lack of competition he will be championfor a few more years.
kevin
Guru
i would take holyfield and tyson off and put frasier and foreman on.
white lightning
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2004
- Messages
- 21,463
Good job on posting Kevin.We are getting quite the boxing
discussion going on here.I like it.What do you guys think
of Jirov.He fights out of Arizona and is very tough.He is
a blow up cruiserweight but is still dangerous.I know he
lost his last fight but he had every chance to win.I'm
just curious what you guys think of him.Have any of you
guys heard of another fighter from Russia.I believe his
name is O.Maskeve? There are alot of good young up and
coming fighters.As far as Holyfield goes,I respect him
more than Tyson,or Lenox Lewis anyday.He also has one
hell of a chin.He took everything Bowe and Tyson could
throw at him and smiled back at them.He needs to retire
though because he is way past his prime.Klitschko will
remain undefeated for at least 2 to 3 years.Trust me on
this.He is that good!
discussion going on here.I like it.What do you guys think
of Jirov.He fights out of Arizona and is very tough.He is
a blow up cruiserweight but is still dangerous.I know he
lost his last fight but he had every chance to win.I'm
just curious what you guys think of him.Have any of you
guys heard of another fighter from Russia.I believe his
name is O.Maskeve? There are alot of good young up and
coming fighters.As far as Holyfield goes,I respect him
more than Tyson,or Lenox Lewis anyday.He also has one
hell of a chin.He took everything Bowe and Tyson could
throw at him and smiled back at them.He needs to retire
though because he is way past his prime.Klitschko will
remain undefeated for at least 2 to 3 years.Trust me on
this.He is that good!
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Marciano was champ in a weak HW era and beat only PAST their prime fighters and had only 7 defenses Holmes should have matched his undefeated record but he was ROBBED in the Spinks fights.Kaptain Poop said:
A hog fat lazy Lewis was still able to TKO Vitali
Ali lost to Norton and Frazier relatively late in his prime when he had slowed down. He lost to Holmes and Berbick when he was suffering from Parkinsons.
Golota LOST twice by DQ and has NEVER beaten a top fighter
Todays era of HWs is the worst ever
And yes Vitali would have lost to Louis He could beat soft punching byrd for god sake.
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Are you werewolf ? are you going to claim again that Louis vs Schmelling 2 was fixedGary said:
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Jirov should have stayed at Cruiser he does not have the style to be effective at HW with his size getting stopped by Micheal Moorer in 2005 is unforgivable . He does not have the defense to make it at HW.white lightning said:
godking said:
What is late in your prime??? Clayli should have been at peak when he lost (twice) to Frazier and had his jaw broken by Norton.
And Ali doesn't have Parkinson's, that is the media PC BS for what Ali really has-- smashed head disease. Caused by being such a rotten fighter he got hit hard too many times.
Also regards Lewis vs. Vitali, c'mon what did Joe fight at 185? he would get killed by a modern heavyweight.
As a sidebar to the Cooper-Ali fight,it was trainer Angelo Dundee who saved Ali's bacon in that one.After Cooper decked Ali at the bell,Ali was in deep trouble,he sat on his stool totally out of it,just then Dundee noticed a tiny nic on one of Ali's gloves,Dundee proceede to put his finger in the nic creating a small hole,Dundee complains to the ref and the fight gets delayed as officials search franticaly for another glove.They don't find one,but it was that delay that allowed Ali to get his senses back enough to go on and win the fight.Dundee did thesame thing in the first Ali-Liston fight.Liston's cornerman had put on some ointment on Sonny and because fighters sweat and perspire and lean on each other,some of that oinment got into Ali's eyes to the point that he was having trouble seeing because stinging real bad.Ali sat in his corner and told Angelo to cut the gloves off,he wasn't going to continue.Dundee lambasted him and said that his eyes would clear up if he just gave it a round,which is what happened and Ali went on to win.How history could have been altered if not for Mr.Dundee.
godking said:Time to educate you againGary said:
Marciano beat a 37 year old WAY past his prime Joe Louis
Ali fought and beat Much better opponents then Marciano most of Ali's opponets where actually in their prime.
Marciano went 49-0 so what ?? Holmes could have been 50 - 0 but he was robbed in the Spinks fights
Nielson won a controversial victory over a Holmes that was almost 50 !
You did see what Louis did to Schmelling in the second fight ??
Gift over Tommy Farrpleazze
Jim Jeffries RAN from Jack Johnson and when he finally fought him was HUMILIATED and dont tell me that the win was not legit since you claim that wins over a 37 year old Joe louis or a close to 50 years old Holmes are legit. Jack Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard and many still claim that Johnson took a dive. And b.t.w Jim Jeffries does belong on any top 10 list.
Dempsey ducked Harry Wills
Lewis was Ko'd twice avenged both defeats . Vitali QUIT against byrd and could not beat a hog fat lazy lennox lewis.
Liston vs Marciano would have looked like Foreman vs Frazier.
Tyson was physically the best HW of all times he had everything except height mentally he was weak though. But Tyson would still have DESTROYED Dempsey or Tunney .
Holyfield is a top ten HW Golota getting DQ agaisnt a past prime Bowe does not detract from that.
That is the end of todays lesson
Dont try to argue boxing with someone who actually knows boxing
You would get laughed of ever respectable boxing forum out there
And I suppose you think you actually know boxing?
Marciano was an all-time great. None of this, he only fought old guy stuff either. Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott, but Ali was ten years younger than Liston..Louis was 12 years younger than Braddock. Louis was younger than Scmeling by 9 years. Ali was 8 years younger than Cooper, and 19 years younger than Moore! All fighters fight older guys. Besides, Rocky was usually at a reach and height disadvatage, and still went 49-0, which, as you state in your post was no big feat. Why has it never been done again?
Nice post Sean-Duane Bobick beat Holmes in the amateurs.If these bums would get at least a G.E.D. they could get a job and not have to box until there 50! Dempsey never ducked Wills-Tex Rickard would not promote the fight .Dempsey had signed the contract.Jack Sharkey stopped Wills and George Godfrey another black hope and then Dempsey ko'd Sharkey!Harry Greb tryed to fight Wills and Wills wisely backed down. Greb was the best at 160! Schemling beat Louis and vice versa-Max is a millionaire and still alive past 90 ,Louis died poor many years ago .Billy Conn boxed Louis's ears off for 12 rounds at 176lbs,Tunney was bigger,faster and better then Conn!!Tunney beats Louis with ease! You say Marciano was not an all time great and Dempsey was and yet on this very site you ranked Rocky ahead of Dempsey-you have no idea what your talking about. In Boxing knowlegde I am like a doctorate and your pre-school!!Jack Johnson's main 'win' was against Jeffries when Jeff was a retired farmer who was close to 300lbs and had not fought in years and you got the gaul to say Rocky beat greybeards!Joe Choyenski Ko'd Johnson and both were put in jail and it was in jail that Choyenski taught Johnson how to box.The Easten Europeans bring a class to boxing they haven't had since Ingemar Johansson.Vitali speaks 4 languages and Tyson can barely put a sentence together in English .In the UFC Ken Shamrock was the best and what black man could carry Bill Kazmaier's jock strap when it comes to strength?
sport historian
Master
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2004
- Messages
- 2,986
The hoariest cliche about boxing is, "There aren't any good heavyweights around today meaning the present champion is overrated." That has been a staple of conversation since the end ofWorld War II whether the champion was black or white.
I read most of the boxing magazines between the early 70's to the early 90's. In almost every issue, you would see in the letters section, a letter (often several) criticizing Rocky Marciano as being overrated.
I read most of the boxing magazines between the early 70's to the early 90's. In almost every issue, you would see in the letters section, a letter (often several) criticizing Rocky Marciano as being overrated.
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Holmes could have reached 50 - 0 but was robbed in the Spinks fightsSean said:godking said:Time to educate you againGary said:
Marciano beat a 37 year old WAY past his prime Joe Louis
Ali fought and beat Much better opponents then Marciano most of Ali's opponets where actually in their prime.
Marciano went 49-0 so what ?? Holmes could have been 50 - 0 but he was robbed in the Spinks fights
Nielson won a controversial victory over a Holmes that was almost 50 !
You did see what Louis did to Schmelling in the second fight ??
Gift over Tommy Farrpleazze
Jim Jeffries RAN from Jack Johnson and when he finally fought him was HUMILIATED and dont tell me that the win was not legit since you claim that wins over a 37 year old Joe louis or a close to 50 years old Holmes are legit. Jack Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard and many still claim that Johnson took a dive. And b.t.w Jim Jeffries does belong on any top 10 list.
Dempsey ducked Harry Wills
Lewis was Ko'd twice avenged both defeats . Vitali QUIT against byrd and could not beat a hog fat lazy lennox lewis.
Liston vs Marciano would have looked like Foreman vs Frazier.
Tyson was physically the best HW of all times he had everything except height mentally he was weak though. But Tyson would still have DESTROYED Dempsey or Tunney .
Holyfield is a top ten HW Golota getting DQ agaisnt a past prime Bowe does not detract from that.
That is the end of todays lesson
Dont try to argue boxing with someone who actually knows boxing
You would get laughed of ever respectable boxing forum out there
And I suppose you think you actually know boxing?
Marciano was an all-time great. None of this, he only fought old guy stuff either. Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott, but Ali was ten years younger than Liston..Louis was 12 years younger than Braddock. Louis was younger than Scmeling by 9 years. Ali was 8 years younger than Cooper, and 19 years younger than Moore! All fighters fight older guys. Besides, Rocky was usually at a reach and height disadvatage, and still went 49-0, which, as you state in your post was no big feat. Why has it never been done again?
And actually Marciano's record was broken though not in the HW
Ricardo Lopez retired at 50-0
And yes marciano was an alltime great but not the greatest. And the fact remains Rocky only made 7 defenses and reigned in a WEAK era Edited by: godking
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Gary said:
Bobick beat Holmes in the amatuers but flopped as a pro
Dempsey ducked Wills
Strange that people claim that Greb was the best at 160 when Nobody alive today has ever seen him fight. SRR Hagler Monzon and Hopkins are betterMWs then Greb ever was.
Tunney might have beatenLouis but it would still be a 60-40 fight in favor of Louis .
If Jack Johnson win over Jeffries does'nt then neither do wins of a past their prime Louis or Ali or Holmes count idiot.
Schmelling won the first fight
Louis improved and destroyed Schmelling in the second fight end of discussion
Ken Shamrock and Bill Kazmaier are not boxers and this thread is about boxing is it not?.
What does Vitali being able to speak 4 languages have to do with boxing ? his last title fight lost in PPV numbers to UFC
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Are has Pugilistic parkinsons sydrom your white God Dempsey also suffered from it shortly before he died guess he was a ''rotten'' fighter toojaxvid said:
Ali's style depended on his legs and superior reflexes after he came back after three years Ali had lost a little leg speed and reaction speed and thus became slightly more beatable.