Europeans in boxing

[Colonel Callan]

Actually, Robinson was 4-2 against La Motta, but the record should be 3-3. La Motta thumped Robinson in Robinson's last fight before going into the army - and Robinson was given the decision, as O.W.I. and other government organizations had stated Robinson and Lewis should be treated positively to boost negro morale. That no doubt colored the judges decision, eh? They showed this in Raging Bull - glossed over it in a way, but it was gone into in La Motta's book. He credits Robinson as being great, but does say he was clearly robbed, as did all other witnesses, writers, etc. who were at that fight. La Motta lost his last "real" fight and his title to Robinson, but he had lost over 10 lbs. earlier in the day to make weight. He was actually winning every round until dehydration from the weight loss suddenly killed his energy and legs. Robinson still couldn't put him down. This was dramatized in the film, of course. Robinson's record as a middleweight champ was terrible, he was in fact OK to mediocre as a middleweight. But we know why and how legends are made. And who makes them. The flip side was that Robinson did say La Motta was the "... toughest S.O.B. that ever lived," and the fighter he most hated to face. Robinson was apparently much more honest than the media.Edited by: Colonel Callan

 

[Guest]

Actually, Robinson was 4-2 against La Motta, but the record should be 3-3. La Motta thumped Robinson in Robinson's last fight before going into the army - and Robinson was given the decision, as O.W.I. and other government organizations had stated Robinson and Lewis should be treated positively to boost negro morale. That no doubt colored the judges decision, eh? They showed this in Raging Bull - glossed over it in a way, but it was gone into in La Motta's book. He credits Robinson as being great, but does say he was clearly robbed, as did all other witnesses, writers, etc. who were at that fight. La Motta lost his last "real" fight and his title to Robinson, but he had lost over 10 lbs. earlier in the day to make weight. He was actually winning every round until dehydration from the weight loss suddenly killed his energy and legs. Robinson still couldn't put him down. This was dramatized in the film, of course. Robinson's record as a middleweight champ was terrible, he was in fact OK to mediocre as a middleweight. But we know why and how legends are made. And who makes them. The flip side was that Robinson did say La Motta was the "... toughest S.O.B. that ever lived," and the fighter he most hated to face. Robinson was apparently much more honest than the media.

lamotta won every round before he lost his legs ?

di you even see the fight.


the record is 5-1 in favour of SRR Edited by: godking

 

[Guest]

Godking, Well I guess tyson was shot when he fought Douglas and Holyfield too. You do remember Buster Douglas don't you? You are obviously a fool and arguing with you is a waste of time.

No he was'nt


Most of SRR's losses where from slightly after his prime . Prime SRR is WW SRR at WW SRR did not lose.

 

[Guest]

What a hypocrit! you make excuses for Robinson losing to Maxim but count Vitali's cut and shoulder injury as true loses. Conn surely would have beaten Robinson. Robinson is regarded as the best fighter of all time (by the blow-hards), but his loses during the prime of his career prove otherwise. For info on Billy Conn's career check out this site: http://billyconn.net/ . What is more outrageous than Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes placed above Rocky? You see, on this site we don't just take the word of the media blow-hards. We look up records, come back with facts,and think for ourselves.


Please address based on fact how Lewis is so much better than Vitali. And don't say he beat him - you lost the right to say that when you said poor SRR couldn't stand the heat against Maxim.

You do know the difference between a defeat on cuts and a defeat because of a freak occurence like exaustion from heat?


Lennox BEAT vitali he opened a cut over Vitali's eye with a classic one two combination the cut steadily worsened and Lewis was beginning to land more and the doctor decided to stop the fight.


SRR was stopped because of Heat exaustion not because of anything Maxim did.


Educated again

 

[Sean]

godking, you are hypocrite. You talk about Vitali's loss, then make your own excuses.


It is extremely clear to all that you are in no way knowledgable on boxing, or it's history. You laughed at Jimmy Wilde as a p4p great..this is curious to me.Tell me why he's not. He had 131 wins to 3 losses! He had a win streak of 103 bouts!



And another thing, it seems whenever one of your favorites lose, he was suddenly past his prime.


If all Vitali has is height, that must be all he needs. He's never even been hurt (by his opponent that is). He beat Lewis from pillar to post, his shallacking of Byrd was even worse. Name the heavyweights around today who you think could beat Vitali.

 

[Gary]

Robinson lost to Maxim-the heat was the same for both and Robinson couldn't take it.Robinson was beat by Joey Archer and Joey Giardello. Giardello said Robinson would never fight him as Champ. Archer beat **** Tiger.Vitali has nothing but height but his two hands kept hitting Williams not his height. McCline has height and Wlad beat the bum like he owned him.Nobody who knows anything about boxing would call Ketchell a bum he put Johnson down and got the better of Sam Langford.You rate Johnson even with Holmes-Johnson took 15 rounds to beat Jeffires when Jeff was a retired farmer-Ali could only go11 rounds with Larry. Jeff did better a lot better.I know it hurts your sagging self esteem but Vitali is the best in the World!To top it all off 3 white teams beat the NBA's "best" in basketball!!When is team Africa going to win a gold medal in hockey?Tell you what you take all the nations in Africa during the olympics and I'll take just Germany and Russia and we'll see who gets the most medals!Guess what !you lose once more

 

[Sean]

Good post Gary. A lotof people forget that Ketchel fought heavyweights. He was only 170 to Johnson's 205 when they fought.

 

[Colonel Callan]

Gary's post does indeed have good points.

As Vitali and Lewis -- as I mentioned way back on
the old forum, I was at that fight. Vitali was leading
easily, despite the cut, Lewis was not making any
headway, except when he would clinch and rub his
thumb into the cut to open it up more. Which he had
to do because his legs were obviously going. Lewis
caught Vitali with a great uppercut, and I thought
"uh-oh" for a second, and then, bam! Vitali popped
Lewis with a right that had Lewis grabbing to keep
from getting knocked down. Watch the tape. That's
the reason Lewis retired. The writing was on the
wall.

 

[Guest]

Robinson lost to Maxim-the heat was the same for both and Robinson couldn't take it.Robinson was beat by Joey Archer and Joey Giardello. Giardello said Robinson would never fight him as Champ. Archer beat **** Tiger.Vitali has nothing but height but his two hands kept hitting Williams not his height. McCline has height and Wlad beat the bum like he owned him.Nobody who knows anything about boxing would call Ketchell a bum he put Johnson down and got the better of Sam Langford.You rate Johnson even with Holmes-Johnson took 15 rounds to beat Jeffires when Jeff was a retired farmer-Ali could only go11 rounds with Larry. Jeff did better a lot better.I know it hurts your sagging self esteem but Vitali is the best in the World!To top it all off 3 white teams beat the NBA's "best" in basketball!!When is team Africa going to win a gold medal in hockey?Tell you what you take all the nations in Africa during the olympics and I'll take just Germany and Russia and we'll see who gets the most medals!Guess what !you lose once more

Ketchel was a bum with ag reat punch get over it yes he got lucky and knocked Johnson down right after that Johnson Got up and dislodged some of his teeth. Johnson took 15 rounds to beat Jeffries beacuse he was TOYING with him. Ali was suffering from Parkinsons had taken diet pills to lose extra weight and still lasted 11 rounds. know your history before you start comparing the fights chump.


Everybody who is anybody knows the conditions of the Maxim fight you would be laughed of every site out there for your dumbass theories. Guess thats why you dont post at ESB anymore


And Ketchel never got the better of Langford the fight was a No Decision liar.





And yes Vitali has height and knows how to use it nothing more.

 

[Guest]

Gary's post does indeed have good points.

As Vitali and Lewis -- as I mentioned way back on
the old forum, I was at that fight. Vitali was leading
easily, despite the cut, Lewis was not making any
headway, except when he would clinch and rub his
thumb into the cut to open it up more. Which he had
to do because his legs were obviously going. Lewis
caught Vitali with a great uppercut, and I thought
"uh-oh" for a second, and then, bam! Vitali popped
Lewis with a right that had Lewis grabbing to keep
from getting knocked down. Watch the tape. That's
the reason Lewis retired. The writing was on the
wall.

pleazze Vitali did'nt hit Lewis after the uppercut either you did not see the fight or you are lying.

 

[Gary]

Hey Fool ! the press reported Ketchell won the fight! Maxim beat Robinson-end of discussion!! Vitali ran Lewis out of boxing! Ali only went 11 rounds if the slob could control his flesh he would't need diet pills. Face it you know nothing about boxing or it's histroy-your lack of education shows every time you post.Here's another blow to your pride the best looking heavyweights Tunney,Baer,Johansson and Corbett- the ugliest Leon Spinks. Your just a natural born loser

 

[Kaptain]

Exhaustion is no excuse in any sport. I would have won the Boston marathon but gee whiz I just got so exhausted. Head butts almost always are the cause of cuts and I would suspect that Vitali's was due to just that. Regardless, Lewis never came close to hurting him and even the mainstream media will not argue that Vitali beating him from one end of the ring to the other. I did see the fight and Vitali hit Lewis several times immediatlely after the one uppercut. The papers and boxing columns also point this out.


You don't even believe Lewis was ahead. You said he was "hog fat" (built in excuse) and backed down when I called you on your 3 rounds to 3 scoring. Still the only one in the world.

 

[Colonel Callan]

That's the best pudking can come up with?

Sorry, but Vitali hit Lewis back and then Lewis was hanging on, quite surprised, because it was a good punch and a lot of other guys had been dropped or softened up. Lewis was the guy who was exhausted when the fight was stopped. Not Vitali.

Robinson and Maxim fought under the same conditions. Aren't black guys supposed to handle heat and humidity better? Apparently not when they're being belted around a ring. It is amusing to read re-hashes of Max Fleischer (and his associates) reports presented as "history" and "facts" by pudking. He and his cronies had an agenda way back when, and the folks put in place after them keep it going at Ring Magazine, as do their co-horts in the commissions, the media, promotions, etc.

 

[Guest]

That's the best pudking can come up with?

Sorry, but Vitali hit Lewis back and then Lewis was hanging on, quite surprised, because it was a good punch and a lot of other guys had been dropped or softened up. Lewis was the guy who was exhausted when the fight was stopped. Not Vitali.

Robinson and Maxim fought under the same conditions. Aren't black guys supposed to handle heat and humidity better? Apparently not when they're being belted around a ring. It is amusing to read re-hashes of Max Fleischer (and his associates) reports presented as "history" and "facts" by pudking. He and his cronies had an agenda way back when, and the folks put in place after them keep it going at Ring Magazine, as do their co-horts in the commissions, the media, promotions, etc.

SRR was not belted across the ring SRR was WINNING the fight before he collapsed . Proof again that you only read about the fight instead of actually seeeing it. I guess there was also an agenda to make Jack Johnson the first Black HW champion in the early 1900's right ???.

 

[Guest]

Hey Fool ! the press reported Ketchell won the fight! Maxim beat Robinson-end of discussion!! Vitali ran Lewis out of boxing! Ali only went 11 rounds if the slob could control his flesh he would't need diet pills. Face it you know nothing about boxing or it's histroy-your lack of education shows every time you post.Here's another blow to your pride the best looking heavyweights Tunney,Baer,Johansson and Corbett- the ugliest Leon Spinks. Your just a natural born loser

Sam Langford vs Stanley Ketchel ND 6


The fact that you believe that that the Ali who fought Holmes was anything close to prime ali shows how dumb you really are. I guess in your eyes a man showing the early signs of Parkinons who was weightdrained was in prime fighting condition.


I dont choose my favorite HW's on their looks only someone who ''prefers the company of men '' does that . Anything you want to tell us about your sexual preferences are you having strange dreams about a naked Tunney in a Turkish bathhouse ?

I will leave you to your unnatural fantasies.

 

[Sean]

Hey Fool ! the press reported Ketchell won the fight! Maxim beat Robinson-end of discussion!! Vitali ran Lewis out of boxing! Ali only went 11 rounds if the slob could control his flesh he would't need diet pills. Face it you know nothing about boxing or it's histroy-your lack of education shows every time you post.Here's another blow to your pride the best looking heavyweights Tunney,Baer,Johansson and Corbett- the ugliest Leon Spinks. Your just a natural born loser

Sam Langford vs Stanley Ketchel ND 6


The fact that you believe that that the Ali who fought Holmes was anything close to prime ali shows how dumb you really are. I guess in your eyes a man showing the early signs of Parkinons who was weightdrained was in prime fighting condition.


I dont choose my favorite HW's on their looks only someone who ''prefers the company of men '' does that . Anything you want to tell us about your sexual preferences are you having strange dreams about a naked Tunney in a Turkish bathhouse ?

I will leave you to your unnatural fantasies.

Um, the press rported Ktchel as winning that fight. I see you're losing the argument, so you're starting with personal attacks.
I'm sure Gary knows that wasnt a prime Ali, yet you make a big deal about Johnson beating Jeffries

And I will make no comment about your bathhouse statement...it just shows what a sick mind you have!


And, I might add, that its interesting that you never can win an argument, so you use personal attacks. Since in your eyes there ar no good white fighters any more, name me one black who could beat Vitali. I asked this question earlier, but you were so much trying to hide the fact that there isnt any, that you have to call people gay or stupid. Now Leon Spinks was a Very ugly fellow. And Gary was not saying his favorite HW were those, he said they were better looking both in skill and facial features, which is true.Edited by: Sean

 

[Gary]

Hey Pudking-Jeffries 14 Clay 11.Press reported Ketchell the better fighter in his match with Langford.Langford was good but Ketchell was better.As far as your queer commets it's just the answer I'd expect from you-the type of mindset is why after 1,000's of years of human history Kenya doesn't have the standard of living Switzerland has.When a insecure person is losing a discussion he start's calling names and pulling facts out of his butt to try and come up with something credible.You have run out of credibility.You are a bigot toward whites. I feel sorry for you.Your whole life is build on what blacks can do and outside of a little boxing,little basketball some tap dancing and panhandling that's not much.

 

[Gary]

I never said Clay was in prime fighting condition for Holmes BUT neither was Jeffries in prime fighting condtion when he fought Johnson.Clay should have retired after the Frazier fights-The boxing commission should never have let his career go on and they should put Holyfield in retirement.Trouble is then all we would hear is how racist the commission is.You have got to admit Vitali is the best in the world.The man has never even been behind in one of his fights-now even you can give the man some kudo's. When he fought Bean, Max Kellerman picked Bean when he fought Donald Max picked Donald- after he whipped them badly and chased Lewis out of boxing he ko'd Kirk Johnson and laid a terrilbe beating on Williams. Jack Johnson lost 14 times! He fought small light fighters Joe Choynski was 170lbs-Ketchell was 170-Burns was 168.Johnson hit Hart with his hardest shots and Hart never blinked and Hart also won the fight.Johnson beat Fitzsimmions when Fitz was way over the hill and had torn ligaments in his elbow.Fitz was 44 years old and 170 lbs when they fought.Jeffries haden't fought in years and lost over 100 lbs to get in some semblence of shape and Philadephia Jack O'Brien held him to a draw and the press reported O'Brien did more in the fight.This was Johnson in his prime,Johnson was ko'd when he fought a real heavyweight in Willard.Johnson was an overhyped bum and Dempsey,Marciano,Jeffries,Tunney would beat him rather easily.Corbett could outbox him,Baer could outpunch him and Vitali would toy with him as with a child !End of Discussion.

 

[Guest]

Hey Fool ! the press reported Ketchell won the fight! Maxim beat Robinson-end of discussion!! Vitali ran Lewis out of boxing! Ali only went 11 rounds if the slob could control his flesh he would't need diet pills. Face it you know nothing about boxing or it's histroy-your lack of education shows every time you post.Here's another blow to your pride the best looking heavyweights Tunney,Baer,Johansson and Corbett- the ugliest Leon Spinks. Your just a natural born loser

Sam Langford vs Stanley Ketchel ND 6


The fact that you believe that that the Ali who fought Holmes was anything close to prime ali shows how dumb you really are. I guess in your eyes a man showing the early signs of Parkinons who was weightdrained was in prime fighting condition.


I dont choose my favorite HW's on their looks only someone who ''prefers the company of men '' does that . Anything you want to tell us about your sexual preferences are you having strange dreams about a naked Tunney in a Turkish bathhouse ?

I will leave you to your unnatural fantasies.

Um, the press rported Ktchel as winning that fight. I see you're losing the argument, so you're starting with personal attacks.
I'm sure Gary knows that wasnt a prime Ali, yet you make a big deal about Johnson beating Jeffries

And I will make no comment about your bathhouse statement...it just shows what a sick mind you have!


And, I might add, that its interesting that you never can win an argument, so you use personal attacks. Since in your eyes there ar no good white fighters any more, name me one black who could beat Vitali. I asked this question earlier, but you were so much trying to hide the fact that there isnt any, that you have to call people gay or stupid. Now Leon Spinks was a Very ugly fellow. And Gary was not saying his favorite HW were those, he said they were better looking both in skill and facial features, which is true.

Then why was the match declared a ND ?


Vitali is currently the best of a bad crop of HWs that does'nt make him great


Ali and Patterson where also better looking HWs it proves nothing

 

[Guest]

I never said Clay was in prime fighting condition for Holmes BUT neither was Jeffries in prime fighting condtion when he fought Johnson.Clay should have retired after the Frazier fights-The boxing commission should never have let his career go on and they should put Holyfield in retirement.Trouble is then all we would hear is how racist the commission is.You have got to admit Vitali is the best in the world.The man has never even been behind in one of his fights-now even you can give the man some kudo's. When he fought Bean, Max Kellerman picked Bean when he fought Donald Max picked Donald- after he whipped them badly and chased Lewis out of boxing he ko'd Kirk Johnson and laid a terrilbe beating on Williams. Jack Johnson lost 14 times! He fought small light fighters Joe Choynski was 170lbs-Ketchell was 170-Burns was 168.Johnson hit Hart with his hardest shots and Hart never blinked and Hart also won the fight.Johnson beat Fitzsimmions when Fitz was way over the hill and had torn ligaments in his elbow.Fitz was 44 years old and 170 lbs when they fought.Jeffries haden't fought in years and lost over 100 lbs to get in some semblence of shape and Philadephia Jack O'Brien held him to a draw and the press reported O'Brien did more in the fight.This was Johnson in his prime,Johnson was ko'd when he fought a real heavyweight in Willard.Johnson was an overhyped bum and Dempsey,Marciano,Jeffries,Tunney would beat him rather easily.Corbett could outbox him,Baer could outpunch him and Vitali would toy with him as with a child !End of Discussion.

Johnson won the HW belt when everything was against him in a society that was set against a black man from winning the HW title . Johnson would have Killed Corbett and was clearly the best boxer from his time period. And Johnson was winning the fight against Willard before he was ko'd suspiciously easy people still claim that the fight was fixed.Baer ??? what did he do except lose his title on his first defense and getting his ass kicked by Joe Louis and quiting. Jeffries could'nt beat Jack Johnson in a million years he said so himself after the fight you aren'nt going to question the word of one of your hero's ?. Dempsey might have beaten Jack Marciano too the others no.


Vitali did'nt chase Lewis out of boxing Lewis was 38 he was still performing at a high level long after other HW champs had retired. Lewis decided to move one after WINNING the fight fight with a TKO. At 38 he could no longer find the discipline to get himself into shape and he knew that.

 

[Guest]

Hey Pudking-Jeffries 14 Clay 11.Press reported Ketchell the better fighter in his match with Langford.Langford was good but Ketchell was better.As far as your queer commets it's just the answer I'd expect from you-the type of mindset is why after 1,000's of years of human history Kenya doesn't have the standard of living Switzerland has.When a insecure person is losing a discussion he start's calling names and pulling facts out of his butt to try and come up with something credible.You have run out of credibility.You are a bigot toward whites. I feel sorry for you.Your whole life is build on what blacks can do and outside of a little boxing,little basketball some tap dancing and panhandling that's not much.

You started with the racist remarks so dont start crying.

 

[Sean]

godking, Vitali won the HW title at a time when no one wants a white champ. Your point? When did Jeffries say he couldnt beat Johnson? Guess what..he could. Jeffries was ten times better than Johnson could ever hope of being. You talk about a bad crop of HW. No mone fought lesser opposition than Johnson. They were all middleweights, has beens and bums. Name mea good fighter he beat in his prime. Of course they said his loss was fixed. They always do

 

[Sean]

Johnson would have gotten beat by a host of white fighters. Quarry could have beat him, and Jerry never was champion!

 

[Sean]

Jeffries could'nt beat Jack Johnson in a million years he said so himself after the fight you aren'nt going to question the word of one of your hero's ?.

Well I hate to break this to you, but Johnson himself called Jeffries the greatest fighter of all time, and I know that you wouldn't doubt the word of one of your heroes. Johnson was lucky enough to come around later than Jeff, otherwise we'd have never heard of him.Edited by: Sean

 

[Gary]

Who's Crying? I really enjoy this, it's like taking candy from a baby-really your too easy!Corbett over Johnson anyday.Tunney boxed Corbett in the 1920's and Tunney said Corbett was one of the most skillful men even for his age. Baer hit too hard for Johnson .You say it's a bad crop of heavyweights-the 1980's were bad for heavyweights-trouble for you is there is no black hope who can put up a decent fight agaist Vitali and there are other Eastern Europeans coming some are bigger and perhaps better thenVitali.Watch out for Dimitrenko and Chagaev and there coming for basketball next-just over 4 million Lithuanians and they beat the nightmare team. Johnson was an overhyped bum-Walcott and Charles were only better then average until Rocky beat them both twice and cleaned up the divison. Then came Pattersen who ducked Cleveland Williams Zora Folley ,Mike DeJohn and Eddie Machen .Johanson took out Machen in 1round then took out Pattersen in 3. Don't that impress you that with so few fighters in Sweden they could produce a heavywerght champ!!They say Rahman gets a shot at Vitali next. Rahman was already ko'd by a guided russian muscle Maskeav knocked him out of the ring and he broke the computer with his booty..by the way what has Rahnman done to deserve a title shot? So the search for the great black hope is under way. Who's it going to be Owen Beck?Audley Harrison he better hurry he's near pension age now.Calvin Brock?Dominic Quinn? I forgot Lyakhovich already took care of him.Well tell me who your black hope is?Don't put too much hope in him I can't stand the thought of you being hurt emotionally.