Europeans in boxing

[white lightning]

Holmes got beat but a little man.Alot of it was his fault
because he fought him differently.Most boxing sites will
tell you that.He underestimated his opponent.That has
never happened to anyone else,has it?It happens all of
the time.Was Buster Douglas better than Tyson?On that
night in Japan,he was.That is what makes boxing special.
You can't overlook anyone.Douglas was a 39-1 underdog.
Holmes was *******y,arrogant,and got beat legitley.Try to
argue that.He did go on to avenge that loss later.I have
watched boxing for around 30 years and I have seen many
good fighters come and go.You give credit to Ali but he
lost 4 times.You give credit to L.Lewis yet he was
knocked out twice and lost several times.The same with
Tyson and others.Why is it so hard for you to give Rocky
Marciano the credit he deserves.As for Klitschko,if you
think that he will lose to Rahman,Lewis,Bryd,or even
Ruiz,I would love to put a wager on it.

 

[Kaptain]

Too much for me to write in response. Discrediting boxers who have soundly beat there opponent but lost due to a cut or shoulder injury is ridiculous. An easy excuse for those who don't like a white champion is that they had no competition. But black champions just prior to and after a white champion magically in a short period of time have great competetion. Godking, educate yourself and look at this web site:


http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//Rocky13.html


A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

 

[Spooge]

The difference between white fighters and black is whites tend to be
handled terribly. That is to say their managers get them in
difficult fights early on , usually with other white fighters. By
the time a white fighter has made a name for himself, hes already half
shot. On the other hand, black fighters seem to be fed a steady
diet of stiffs and do not tend to take a pounding until much later in
their carers. This is just my obseration. And by the way
Vitali is the Heavywieght champ (Don King and his stable of jokes aside
not withstanding.)

 

[Guest]

Holmes got beat but a little man.Alot of it was his fault
because he fought him differently.Most boxing sites will
tell you that.He underestimated his opponent.That has
never happened to anyone else,has it?It happens all of
the time.Was Buster Douglas better than Tyson?On that
night in Japan,he was.That is what makes boxing special.
You can't overlook anyone.Douglas was a 39-1 underdog.
Holmes was *******y,arrogant,and got beat legitley.Try to
argue that.He did go on to avenge that loss later.I have
watched boxing for around 30 years and I have seen many
good fighters come and go.You give credit to Ali but he
lost 4 times.You give credit to L.Lewis yet he was
knocked out twice and lost several times.The same with
Tyson and others.Why is it so hard for you to give Rocky
Marciano the credit he deserves.As for Klitschko,if you
think that he will lose to Rahman,Lewis,Bryd,or even
Ruiz,I would love to put a wager on it.

Ali avenged two of his losses The other two came when he way way past his prime


Lenox was Ko'd twice avenged both defeats by stoppages


Yes Marciano was a great but he is not the God people here make himout to be

 

[Guest]

Too much for me to write in response. Discrediting boxers who have soundly beat there opponent but lost due to a cut or shoulder injury is ridiculous. An easy excuse for those who don't like a white champion is that they had no competition. But black champions just prior to and after a white champion magically in a short period of time have great competetion. Godking, educate yourself and look at this web site:


http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//Rocky13.html


A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Vitali quit against Byrd and that fight was closer then the scorecards showed.


Vitali could not beat a hogfat lay Lewis At the time of the stoppage Lennox was starting to win the fight. I had it 3-3 in rounds at the time. And this was an undertrained Lewis .

 

[Guest]

The difference between white fighters and black is whites tend to be handled terribly. That is to say their managers get them in difficult fights early on , usually with other white fighters. By the time a white fighter has made a name for himself, hes already half shot. On the other hand, black fighters seem to be fed a steady diet of stiffs and do not tend to take a pounding until much later in their carers. This is just my obseration. And by the way Vitali is the Heavywieght champ (Don King and his stable of jokes aside not withstanding.)

Bull all top fighters get fed bums early on . And Vitali still has unfinished business with Byrd. And Ruiz and Byrd both have actually beaten a better string of contenders then Vitali has.

 

[Don Wassall]

No one here has called Marciano a God. How can you knock a decade-long never defeated heavyweight champion? Rocky and Joe were both great champions. Why can't you give Marciano some respect? I doubt there's anyone here who wouldn't give Louis his due.

If you can't acknowledge Marciano's greatness without distorting what has been posted about him, why should we take you seriously?
Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[Kaptain]

I saw the Lewis/Vitali fight also and, GK, you can't be taken seriously if you actually thought that was a close fight when it was stopped due to a cut. Do you have to lose fights to nobodys and then avenge them to be considered great? I would choose the guy who never lost in the first place. Vitali's match with Byrd was "closer than the scorecards showed"? Are you saying that the judges were racists and only you saw the truth?


I do think Louis was a great fighter but not Lennox Lewis and some others on your beloved list. My favorite fighter of all time is Roberto Duran. You can't give any credit to white fighters so don't try to say others that happen to disagree with you are racists. Nobody wants to fight Vitali.

 

[Guest]

I saw the Lewis/Vitali fight also and, GK, you can't be taken seriously if you actually thought that was a close fight when it was stopped due to a cut. Do you have to lose fights to nobodys and then avenge them to be considered great? I would choose the guy who never lost in the first place. Vitali's match with Byrd was "closer than the scorecards showed"? Are you saying that the judges were racists and only you saw the truth?


I do think Louis was a great fighter but not Lennox Lewis and some others on your beloved list. My favorite fighter of all time is Roberto Duran. You can't give any credit to white fighters so don't try to say others that happen to disagree with you are racists. Nobody wants to fight Vitali.

i saw Lewis vitali too and the fight was close at most Vitali was one round ahead. No way was that fight a walkover for vitali until he got stopped on cuts.


Lennox was agreat fighter the guy every fighter he faced had the most defenses next to Holmes and Louis


Had a relatively long reign


Was still Champion at 38


at 38 90 % of HW champs where retired or where not able anymore to win the big fights


Lewis did enough to be a top 10 all time HW


And if you dont think that Lewis is a great then Vitali most certainly cannot be considered a great .

 

[Sean]

Godking,you have no clue what you are talking about. You keep saying Rocky was around at a weak time. Why? Because he beat everyone! Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Tex Rickard wouldn't promote the fight because no one had forgotten what a clown Jack Johnson had been. You keep mentioning Byrd's "victory" over Klitschko, which proves you know nothing. Did you also not know that Wlad beat Byrd terribly? Lewis was getting beat by Vitali before the stoppage.

One last thing...how can you put Louis #1, and say Rocky was not an all-time great...oh wait,you said in a later post that he was an all-timer. Make upyour mind!

 

[Sean]

Strange that people claim that Greb was the best at 160 when Nobody alive today has ever seen him fight. SRR Hagler Monzon and Hopkins are betterMWs then Greb ever was.

Strange that people claim Robinson,Hagler,Monzon, and Hopkins are better than Greb when no one alive has ever saw him fight.

He fought for 13 years (not at weak time). He won something like 262 fights, including multiple wins over great fighters like Tommy Loughran. He also beat Tunney whom you said may have been able to beat Louis, whom you have as the greatest heavy of all time. Come on...none of the guys you mentioned could have beat Tunney, or even went the distance in defeat against him like Greb did.

 

[Gary]

You call me an idiot-I thought the posts were to be productive-I wish you would stick to your junk yard job in East St.Louis and leave the boxing to those who know whats going on-What is your IQ 65 or less?The best at 160 were Greb,Walker and Ketchell.Bobick beat Holmes end of discussion.Jack Sharkey beat Wills end of discussion.Lewis and Bryd are ducking Vitali end of discussion.Louis is dead Schemling is alive-Louis during WW2 drank Coke at the USO Schemling saw combat action on Crete .Schmeling gave Louis a beating and ko'd him end of dicsussion.This is a boxing thread and a free nation so go ahead and name a black guy who could beat Shamrock?or is stronger than Kazmiaer or has a better record then Rocky?you cheer for the colored guys and I'll root for for whites.End of discussion.Now go watch Oprah.

 

[Kaptain]

Lennox Lewis was first considered the undisputed heavyweight champion when he beat evander holyfield in 1999 - 10 years after holyfield beat buster douglas to win the title! Then Lennox averaged a whooping 1and 1/2 fights a year before retiring in 2004 because he knew he could not beat Vitali. Who did Lennox fight in his championship spurt? read below


1999 - Holyfield twice and both but 9 years into holyfields reign.


2000- The great Mike Grant and David Tua.


2001 - Lost to Rahman and then beat him in the rematch. Great move by Lennox to lose the first one so that he can be considered great by those who don't think.


2002 - Mike Tyson more than a decade and 1/2 after he was champion.


2003 - Vitali Klitscko. Only one person in the world scored this fight even and we have him on our message board!


Still want him number #4 on your list - ahead of Rocky?

 

[kevin]

smelling is 98 and still looks like he could fight. i work for coke and had a chance to meet him n germany. he is a very nice guy.

 

[kevin]

you can'tcompare people of different time periods to eachother. comparing ali to maciano or ali to vatli, is hard to do. mainly because times have changed. back in dempsey time 190 was a good heavy-weight, now 250 is a good heavy weight. ali fighting weight was 210, he was origianaly a light heavyweight. also ali build was more a natural build. he did not lift a lot of weight , every one is in the gym tring to lift weights and build power.

 

[Colonel Callan]

Well, if we go by godking's logic, then Jack Sharkey should be a king, as he whipped (rather easily) Wills.

Marciano was a decent champ. He actually gets less respect for being white. Had he been black, we'd never hear the end of him. All you can do is fight the best of your era. Unlike Roy Jones, who spent most of his career having "HBO" fights. He looked good against opponents, but not so good against real fighters. He HAD to fight Tarver, and look what happened. He was given a gift the first time around, and Tarver derailed the gravytrain after that. The real RJJ has been in evidence for a while now.

Ali was the fastest heavyweight ever. But not the greatest. Dundee's story relating that he indeed saw the tear in Ali's glove and ripped it to gain time is telling. Dundee said that if he hadn't done that, Ali would have been KO'd by Cooper. Ali was on queer street - he wasn't able to handle lefties or left hooks all that well. Ali did get a lot of help from the boxing establishment, who felt the sport was dying, and who deemed his clowning and such would bring in the crowds. When he chickened out of military service (he would have had duty like Joe Louis or Elvis Presley) he became an even more valuable tool. He did indeed get many, many gift decisions during his career, as mentioned earlier. He is probably the most overrated champ ever. Far more overrated than Marciano, or even Joe Louis - and Louis was probably the biggest beneficiary of a weak era - fighting much smaller or older fighters most of his reign as champ. But this can't be mentioned because he's black.

Vitali needs more fights against blacks for the public to feel he is legit. It's kind of like watching a black at an NHB event. Oh, they'll toss them an "opponent" to build them up, but when facing the best white NHB fighters, they get rolled and smoked 90% of the time (of course, some tournaments are trying to change rules to help out the black folks in NHB, make it almost all relying on thick skulls). In short, it's hard to take the blacks seriously in NHB. Guys like Bob Sapp, etc. Whites have been kept out of the picture in boxing for so long, they have to work to gain respect. That's just the way it is. Vitali will have to have a string of wins against all the blacks they can throw at him.

P4P rankings are generally useless. Many times you end up getting guys like Pernell Whitaker who usually ran for his life, but was praised for "defensive" skill. And then handed the win even if he in fact lost every round. These are also the type of fighters (not the latins, the American blacks) who will take on a "legend" - once the legend is past his prime or much smaller. It's a joke. Not to mention of course, the P4P usually has to be black. Even if there are latino or white fighters who could clean his clock - if he were to actually fight them. Not to mention other blacks who just aren't the type or the guy chosen to be marketed.

It isn't only the white fighters who have been the victim of management purposely derailing their careers to suit the socialization of the West. Even some latin fighters experienced this over the years as blacks were deemed the golden calves, the idols. Now the latins receive almost as much hype as their black American counterparts. Note that all of this dovetails nicely with other, eh, social engineering all going on. Of course, it's all coincidence. There's no design to anything. Then again, FDR said that if anything happens in politics (and related areas) you can bet it was planned, whether it looks like an accident or not, or just the result of random actions. Probably one of the few true statements he ever made.

 

[Guest]

You call me an idiot-I thought the posts were to be productive-I wish you would stick to your junk yard job in East St.Louis and leave the boxing to those who know whats going on-What is your IQ 65 or less?The best at 160 were Greb,Walker and Ketchell.Bobick beat Holmes end of discussion.Jack Sharkey beat Wills end of discussion.Lewis and Bryd are ducking Vitali end of discussion.Louis is dead Schemling is alive-Louis during WW2 drank Coke at the USO Schemling saw combat action on Crete .Schmeling gave Louis a beating and ko'd him end of dicsussion.This is a boxing thread and a free nation so go ahead and name a black guy who could beat Shamrock?or is stronger than Kazmiaer or has a better record then Rocky?you cheer for the colored guys and I'll root for for whites.End of discussion.Now go watch Oprah.

Greb walker and Ketchel where the best at 160

the same walker who was whipped by Flowers but got a gift decision ?? Ketchel had a monstrous punch nothing more. He was a smaller version of David Tua.

 

[Guest]

Well, if we go by godking's logic, then Jack Sharkey should be a king, as he whipped (rather easily) Wills.

Marciano was a decent champ. He actually gets less respect for being white. Had he been black, we'd never hear the end of him. All you can do is fight the best of your era. Unlike Roy Jones, who spent most of his career having "HBO" fights. He looked good against opponents, but not so good against real fighters. He HAD to fight Tarver, and look what happened. He was given a gift the first time around, and Tarver derailed the gravytrain after that. The real RJJ has been in evidence for a while now.

Ali was the fastest heavyweight ever. But not the greatest. Dundee's story relating that he indeed saw the tear in Ali's glove and ripped it to gain time is telling. Dundee said that if he hadn't done that, Ali would have been KO'd by Cooper. Ali was on queer street - he wasn't able to handle lefties or left hooks all that well. Ali did get a lot of help from the boxing establishment, who felt the sport was dying, and who deemed his clowning and such would bring in the crowds. When he chickened out of military service (he would have had duty like Joe Louis or Elvis Presley) he became an even more valuable tool. He did indeed get many, many gift decisions during his career, as mentioned earlier. He is probably the most overrated champ ever. Far more overrated than Marciano, or even Joe Louis - and Louis was probably the biggest beneficiary of a weak era - fighting much smaller or older fighters most of his reign as champ. But this can't be mentioned because he's black.

Vitali needs more fights against blacks for the public to feel he is legit. It's kind of like watching a black at an NHB event. Oh, they'll toss them an "opponent" to build them up, but when facing the best white NHB fighters, they get rolled and smoked 90% of the time (of course, some tournaments are trying to change rules to help out the black folks in NHB, make it almost all relying on thick skulls). In short, it's hard to take the blacks seriously in NHB. Guys like Bob Sapp, etc. Whites have been kept out of the picture in boxing for so long, they have to work to gain respect. That's just the way it is. Vitali will have to have a string of wins against all the blacks they can throw at him.

P4P rankings are generally useless. Many times you end up getting guys like Pernell Whitaker who usually ran for his life, but was praised for "defensive" skill. And then handed the win even if he in fact lost every round. These are also the type of fighters (not the latins, the American blacks) who will take on a "legend" - once the legend is past his prime or much smaller. It's a joke. Not to mention of course, the P4P usually has to be black. Even if there are latino or white fighters who could clean his clock - if he were to actually fight them. Not to mention other blacks who just aren't the type or the guy chosen to be marketed.

It isn't only the white fighters who have been the victim of management purposely derailing their careers to suit the socialization of the West. Even some latin fighters experienced this over the years as blacks were deemed the golden calves, the idols. Now the latins receive almost as much hype as their black American counterparts. Note that all of this dovetails nicely with other, eh, social engineering all going on. Of course, it's all coincidence. There's no design to anything. Then again, FDR said that if anything happens in politics (and related areas) you can bet it was planned, whether it looks like an accident or not, or just the result of random actions. Probably one of the few true statements he ever made.

Sharkey beat a past his prime Wills


RJJ did't have to fight Tarver he could have stayed at HW but stupidly he went down to LHW causing alot of damage to his body.


And yes RJJ is Shot but he was P4P the best for 10 + years


Pernel Whitaker for a time was the best p4p boxer in the world the art of boxing is hitting and not getting hit he cemented his position at the time with his victory of Chavez inspite if the ''draw''


Hopkins Floyd Jr Toney Pacman Barrera morales & Tzyu ( yes i consider tzyu a p4p great ) are the worlds best P4P If they are not give us the names of the fighters within their weight range or who are overal better fighters.

 

[dkr77]

Godking, Statements like yours follows each new crop of heavyweights. Ali was never thought to be as good as Liston. Holmes was never thought to be as good as Ali, Lewis as good as Tyson etc. But, regardless of how many people like yourself want to deny it, the truth of the matter is we are currently looking at the biggest, fastest and hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. Klitchko would beat Ali, even in his prime, like a rented mule. Danny Williams beating Tyson was no fluke and not to long ago people were considering Tyson the best heavyweight ever. I know, I know, your going to say "Tyson is not in his prime anymore." But the last thing a heavyweight loses is his punching power and Tyson could not stop Williams, not today nor ten years ago. Klitchko is 6'-7" and roughly 245 lbs in shape. He threw almost a hundred punches in round 1 against Williams and at one time dropped him with a 6" left hook. Klitchkos jab is as effectiveas any heavyweight at any time in the sport. Hell Marciano fought in the heavyweight division at 185 lbs! He wouldn't even be considered a light heavyweight these days. I'm not saying he wasn't good, he was an excellent boxer. What I am saying is the current crop of heavyweights may not be as flashy as Ali but they bring much more size and power and yesteryears fighters couldn't compete with them.

 

[Colonel Callan]

Actually, Wills was at his peak and on quite a streak when Sharkey beat him. Might be why Sharkey had a hard time getting fights in that period.

Sorry, only folks like Bert Sugar and the HBO clowns consider RJJ an all-timer. He ducked any and all real threats for many a year. Sooner or later, they all get a chance to show their real ability and standing.

Dkr77 is right for the most part, it dovetails with what I said about beating the best during one's own "era". Vitali is far too strong for anyone from even 10 years ago. Things constantly change. Ali, Holmes, Liston, yes, Marciano, etc. would be put in the hospital by a man like Vitali. And it's going to continue. I suspect another E. European is going to come along who will rule the roost in the heavyweight division for some time. I like Vitali, but think he's a bit raw or maybe incomplete. But he is far better than almost all of his competition. People bring up his loss - but he was far ahead when he stopped due to shoulder trouble. No one thinks his, eh, opponent was close in that fight, not even the anti-white media. Well, maybe godking, but no one else ; ).

For all the negativity regarding Marciano, NO ONE, except Archie Moore, was hotly pursuing a fight with him. They were scared of his relentless attack, scared of the fact that his punch output increased round by round, because of his unrivaled conditioning. But the Rock just couldn't compete at heavyweight today. Too small. By the way, if one reads Archie Moore's bio, "Any Boy Can", he says that he felt that no fighter, past or present, 20 lbs either way, could have stood toe to toe with Marciano and slugged it out. He said no one could have taken the punishment - except Marciano.Edited by: Colonel Callan

 

[Guest]

Godking, Statements like yours follows each new crop of heavyweights. Ali was never thought to be as good as Liston. Holmes was never thought to be as good as Ali, Lewis as good as Tyson etc. But, regardless of how many people like yourself want to deny it, the truth of the matter is we are currently looking at the biggest, fastest and hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. Klitchko would beat Ali, even in his prime, like a rented mule. Danny Williams beating Tyson was no fluke and not to long ago people were considering Tyson the best heavyweight ever. I know, I know, your going to say "Tyson is not in his prime anymore." But the last thing a heavyweight loses is his punching power and Tyson could not stop Williams, not today nor ten years ago. Klitchko is 6'-7" and roughly 245 lbs in shape. He threw almost a hundred punches in round 1 against Williams and at one time dropped him with a 6" left hook. Klitchkos jab is as effectiveas any heavyweight at any time in the sport. Hell Marciano fought in the heavyweight division at 185 lbs! He wouldn't even be considered a light heavyweight these days. I'm not saying he wasn't good, he was an excellent boxer. What I am saying is the current crop of heavyweights may not be as flashy as Ali but they bring much more size and power and yesteryears fighters couldn't compete with them.

Let me make this clear Tyson was shot before the Lewis fight . The only reason Tyson has fought for the last couple of years is to pick up a paycheck. Williams victory over a Tyson with a bum leg means nothing .

 

[Gary]

The best at 160 were Greb,Walker,Fitzsimmions,Ketchell and had he lived Cerdan.Sugar Ray Robinson was overrated by the press-this guy lost 19 times and he was beat by LaMotta,Fullmer,Basilio,Pender-if Fullmer put to much pressure on him you can bet Ketchell would. Billy Conn was the same h't as Robinson and 10lbs heavier,Robinson lost to Maxim when he tryed for the Lt.Heavy Title.Conn beat many heavyweights with ease.P4P Conn was much better then Robinson and had they fought Billy would have won a very easy decision.The best P4P were Jimmy Wilde,Harry Greb,Benny Leonard and Willie Pep.Vitali would beat Ali with very few problems Vitali is just to big and strong for the light hitting small Ali and forget Joe Frazier.From the outsdie Vitali would pick Joe apart in close fighting the 250lb Vitali would be to strong for the 210lb little man.Foreman had a punch but no endurance after 5 rounds he fought like he had asthma.He wanted to quit against Peralta a blown up Lt.Heavy,Vitali would give him the same beating he gave Kirk Johnson.Foreman ducked Quarry when he saw Quarry take out Shavers in 1 round.Sorry godking you lose again

 

[Guest]

The best at 160 were Greb,Walker,Fitzsimmions,Ketchell and had he lived Cerdan.Sugar Ray Robinson was overrated by the press-this guy lost 19 times and he was beat by LaMotta,Fullmer,Basilio,Pender-if Fullmer put to much pressure on him you can bet Ketchell would. Billy Conn was the same h't as Robinson and 10lbs heavier,Robinson lost to Maxim when he tryed for the Lt.Heavy Title.Conn beat many heavyweights with ease.P4P Conn was much better then Robinson and had they fought Billy would have won a very easy decision.The best P4P were Jimmy Wilde,Harry Greb,Benny Leonard and Willie Pep.Vitali would beat Ali with very few problems Vitali is just to big and strong for the light hitting small Ali and forget Joe Frazier.From the outsdie Vitali would pick Joe apart in close fighting the 250lb Vitali would be to strong for the 210lb little man.Foreman had a punch but no endurance after 5 rounds he fought like he had asthma.He wanted to quit against Peralta a blown up Lt.Heavy,Vitali would give him the same beating he gave Kirk Johnson.Foreman ducked Quarry when he saw Quarry take out Shavers in 1 round.Sorry godking you lose again

Lamotta beat SRR once lost the other 5 fights. And SRR was still a WW then.Fulmer and Basillio beat a slightly past his prime SRR prime SRR at WW was an almost unbeatable fighter. Ketchel was a bum with the punch of a hw let it rest.


Everybody who not a complete idiot knows that SRR was beating Maxim befor he COLLAPSED from heat exaustion the had to change referee's in the fight. Guess you only read the boxrec record idiot. Greb deserves to be ranked in the lower ton ten at MW but Hagler Hopkins Monzon SRR **** Tiger where all better.


Willy Pepwas a P4P great but he LOST 3 times To Sandy Saddler


Benny Leonard is a P4P Top 15 fighter


Wilde

Vitali has height nothing else


Quarry might have beaten Foreman i concede hard hitting brawlers where his speciality.


But on the rest you a wrong again


Tell us again how Harrison and Hatton are P4P better then Hopkins Barrera Floyd Jr Pacman Morales Toney ect.


Guess this is the only site where you can make your outragous claims

 

[Kaptain]

What a hypocrit! you make excuses for Robinson losing to Maxim but count Vitali's cut and shoulder injury as true loses. Conn surely would have beaten Robinson. Robinson is regarded as the best fighter of all time (by the blow-hards), but his loses during the prime of his career prove otherwise. For info on Billy Conn's career check out this site: http://billyconn.net/ . What is more outrageous than Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes placed above Rocky? You see, on this site we don't just take the word of the media blow-hards. We look up records, come back with facts,and think for ourselves.


Please address based on fact how Lewis is so much better than Vitali. And don't say he beat him - you lost the right to say that when you said poor SRR couldn't stand the heat against Maxim.

 

[dkr77]

Godking, Well I guess tyson was shot when he fought Douglas and Holyfield too. You do remember Buster Douglas don't you? You are obviously a fool and arguing with you is a waste of time. Edited by: dkr77