Andy Lee

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The rumor is trying to have Lee face Palvik by the end of the year. My informants are VERY reliable in terms of boxing information. It is also starting to creep out into the news media. What I also hear is that Arthur Abraham is supposed to have Universum (his German promotions team) and HBO at the table to have him fight a couple times here before fighting Pavlik. Trust me "King" Abraham is the real deal but I don't know if he can eat a Pavlik jab just yet (nobody has). Could be a good time at middleweight!
 

JD074

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Finally, new Andy Lee vids! I've been waiting a while for this. Check out his most recent fight against Alejandro Falligo on this guy's Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnboy8

Thoughts: tall (obviously,) good offense, very fundamentally sound, poised, very basic defense, good habits. I always worry about a prospect's defense. It was solid in this fight, but like I said, it's very basic. He keeps his left hand up, but doesn't move his head or upper body much. I couldn't observe his footwork, because Falligo was so passive that there wasn't any need for much footwork (except for closing off the ring.) He was in predator mode the whole time; I'd like to see him make adjustments against a come forward fighter with good power. Occasionally Falligo would briefly brawl and he handled that well. But Falligo had neither the power nor the aggression to test his chin or defensive skills. Lee also had a cut or two. I think he received a head butt in the first round, and a left hand from Falligo opened it up in the third round. At least I hope that's what happened. We don't need another bleeder like Duddy.

Overall, good performance. He's a very mature, seasoned fighter after only fifteen pro fights. I don't know about fighting Pavlik yet. No rush. Maybe Sturm at some point. That could be interesting.
 

Charles Martel

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Andy Lee will be featured on ESPN Friday Night Fights this week, on Good Friday March 21, facing the Contender's Brian Vera.
 

Charles Martel

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Brian Vera wins an early stoppage over Andy Lee, after Lee wins every round up to that point.

This is the worst early stoppage I've ever seen. Lee was throwing a counterpunch when the referee stopped the fight.

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JD1986 it was a bad stoppage, but Andy Lee is not the fighter I thought he was. He needs to learn head movement and how to grab when he is hurt. He kinda of reminds me of Jason Lizhua, great offensive skills but lacking in defensive and survival skills.

That ref made a bad call. But Andy is young and hopefully he will learn form this fight. I was expecting to see another Kelly Pavlik, but at this point its not close. Andy just took too many looping shots from a B-/C+ fighter.

You have got to give credit to Vera, he took some murderous shots and still had the belief in himself. And WTF is Andy coming into the fight underweight! at 158. Man, it been a rough month for our fighters, hopefully April will be different. GO Joe!
 
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Lee was less skillful than I expected and Vera did much better than I expected but still I have never seen a fight stopped quite like this one.
 

The Hock

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Crap. I guess this guy was too good to be true. Or too good looking to be true. What bad news. We've had a real lousy run the last few weeks, haven't we?

I was just watching this kid on You Tube and he seemed a little straight up. Hope he can bounce back.
 

The Hock

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Watched the fight on the late replay. Lee made the mistake of thinking he could take Vera out with one shot. Several times had he followed up he could have gotten Vera in trouble.

Lee was in bad shape at the end, but I can't think of another time I've seen a ref call a TKO on a guy who has just landed a good punch.
 

mark b.

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I saw the last couple of rounds and was not impressed with Andy Lee at all. He was getting hit way to much for a boxer of his supposed skill level. Maybe he was having a bad night or maybe he has been over-hyped. He needs to go back to the drawing board and start over. Maybe having his weaknesses exposed at an early stage of his career will strengthen him in the end. He looked like a deer in the headlights for the last couple of rounds.
 
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Lee needs to learn to infight and how to protect himself in the clinches. Particularly from head butts. Vera in the words of Teddy Atlas was 'swinging his head like a billy goat". He might also benefit from some low rep weight work which builds muscle strength without building size because Vera was mush stronger than he was and used this strength differential to his advantage. Lee also seemed to dependent on his right jab. Ironically he did not start following the right jab with a left handed punch until he was in trouble and then Tony Chiarantoano stopped the fight. I am not sure whether Lee could have survived the 47 seconds remaining in the round. Had he done so and stated using both hand I still feel he had a reasonable chance to win the fight. I also wonder about his endurance. While Lee has fought several 10 rounders he won the in the first fifth and sixth rounds. He may need more endurance work . He does not appear to have the fitness level of Pavlik or Klitschko. He may have ran out of gas. Hopefully this fight will prove to be a learning for the young fighter and he will shore up his weak areas. But Hey Jack Dempsey and Sugar Ray Robinson also lost fights a 23 years od by KO so Young Andy is not necessarily in bad company. I do have a question since Brain Vera appeared to be white why this a bad fight for white fighters. It looks to me like may have a two fer in that while this fight may be a small bump in Lee's career it surely advance another white fighter.Edited by: Tired old White
 

Maple Leaf

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Tired old White said:
Lee needs to learn to infight and how to protect himself in the clinches..

The exact opposite is true: Lee needed to stand up and maintain a distance between him and Vera. Even Lee's trainer Stewart was telling him that. Lee did a stupid thing in wading in and trying to infight with Vera. In fact, I mentioned on another thread here that John Duddy was guilty of breaking the same rule. When a fighter is tall and has the reach advantage he is supposed to profit from his advantages and win with them. Lee did not do that.

Look at this example and you will see what I mean: would it make sense for Wladimir Klitshchko to crouch down and mess and mix it up with his shorter opponents? Obviously it would not be. He would be giving away his fights.

I think what happened in this fight is Lee came in close to try and look good and knock out Vera and got caught with the punch so many fighter have trouble with -the overhand right. Then, instead of boxing, he resorted to his instict and tried to slug and punch his way out of trouble.

It is sometimes really hard to change a fighter's habits. Also, often a fighter will run up a record with a string of knockouts and think he has more power than he actually does. In Lee's case it may be a bit of both.

Many of you gentlemen have already said it is only one loss, and it is early in his career. This is true. Now he can go back and learn to change his insticts and think more when he is in the ring.

The good news is he at least got paid!
Edited by: Maple Leaf
 

Charles Martel

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After two good months in January and February, white fighters are having some setbacks so far in March. Today we have four whites in important fights:

Katsidis
Stieglitz
Rees
Kotelnik
 
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Maple Leaf Vlad Klitschko in fights quite well when it suits his purpose. Ask Chris Byrd. He chooses to find from the outside because with his obvious height and reach advantage that is to his benefit but if he finds himself in a clinch or in a corner he knows how ti in fight well enough to get himself out of the situation so he does not have to slug it out. Andy Lee does not know hoe to do this as was obvious Friday night. I do not know why you think he was going for the KO he almost never threw his left hand at all until the very end. Vlad may win fights using only the weak hand but I have never seen anyone else do it. I was actually wondering if he had injured his hand and was fighting one handed. Steward had another fighter whose success was limited by his inability in this area also a fellow named Tommy Hearns who in 1988 lost the upset of the year to Iran Barkley after he got inside and hurt him. Ironically this fight was also stopped with out Hearns being knocked down. I also still question lee's ability to go past six rounds.
 
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Maple Leaf I think your missing the point. All great fighters must know how to fight inside. Sometimes they have no choice, especially when fatigue sets in. In this fight Andy got tired as well as hit far too much by a C+ fighter. He does not know how to tie up an opponent to get a breather and to avoid further punishment. While tying up, great fighters ie; Duran,Chavez and Rocky knew how to place perfect shots to the body of an opponent. What Andy has in favor is youth and time to correct his weakness. I do agree with you he should fight tall, but when the truth comes in the square ring you have to know how to change tactics to survive and later win a fight. Andy failed to do this.
 

Amren.com

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Tired old White said:
I do have a question since Brain Vera appeared to be white why this a bad fight for white fighters. It looks to me like may have a two fer in that while this fight may be a small bump in Lee's career it surely advance another white fighter.

It was bad because we were hoping that Andy Lee was the next superstar. At least we won't have to worry about a Pavlik / Lee bout in the near future.
 

Maple Leaf

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Tired Old White:

Lee had Vera down in the first and probably thought he had a knockout coming. That is a natural reaction. It did not happen. He came in close, within Vera's power range, to see if he could finish Vera and was hit hard. Later he was cut and that really sapped him. The main point I made above is he should not have been trying to out-slug a slugger. He gave his fight away by making Vera's task easier by coming close to Vera. Sure he needs to clinch better but do not confuse clinching with in-fighting. In-fighting is bobbing and weaving and hooking; and that is not the job of the taller, lankier fighter. Mayweather did not in-fight with Hatton, in fact, he grabbed and tied Hatton's arms up at every chance. Wladimir Klistchko is now Wladimir Clinchko -at times- because he knows he cannot in-fight with shorter men so he ties them up. Lee will need to in-fight when and if he fights someone taller or with longer reach than him, until then, he must box from the outside and win, win, win. Good luck to Lee and I am sure he will learn something from the fight.
 

Maple Leaf

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Kukulcan said:
Maple Leaf I think your missing the point. All great fighters must know how to fight inside. Sometimes they have no choice, especially when fatigue sets in. In this fight Andy got tired as well as hit far too much by a C+ fighter. He does not know how to tie up an opponent to get a breather and to avoid further punishment. While tying up, great fighters ie; Duran,Chavez and Rocky knew how to place perfect shots to the body of an opponent. What Andy has in favor is youth and time to correct his weakness. I do agree with you he should fight tall, but when the truth comes in the square ring you have to know how to change tactics to survive and later win a fight. Andy failed to do this.

I think you are trying to say he needs to learn to clinch. If you are, then my post-reply to Tired should explain what I mean and I do agree with you. However, if you mean that every fighter needs to learn to bob, weave, and throw short hooks, then I cannot agree with that. A fighter's body will decide how he should fight with very few exceptions. But I do not think you are saying that every fighter needs to fight like that.

I would say, and this may come as a surprise to all reading this, that we, us whites, have a very unique fighter who is a champion right now and who can do the seemingly impossible: he can fight inside and outside and he does both incredibly well. He is also 6,3" and built like an albatross. I have mentioned this in the past but nobody seemed to pay any attention. Can you guess who he is? Scroll down and find his name.



























If you guessed Kelly Pavlik you are right. Pavlik is so amazing he can crouch and shorten his punches and block on the inside like no other tall man I have ever seen in a long time. If you watch his fight with Zertuche, a much shorter guy, he blocked in such a fancy and skilled way; he also shortened his shots and sledged out a fighter that never saw the canvas before. In his second fight with Taylor he elongated himself and stetched out telescopic jabs and long range right hands that pushed Taylor backwards. But Pavlik is a special guy and not everyone can do that!!!
 
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Maple Leaf I agree with you 100% regarding the skills and ability of Kelly Pavlik. So far, he shown himself to be a special talent. I hope it continues.

Regarding Lee, when he got tired and hurt he didn't know how to survive. Much like a prime Tommy Hearns. He failed to clinch to clear his head and get a breather. He has got to find these skills asap, or his career will be short and unfullfilled.

Gonna what that Katadisis fight right now. Hopefully he can stop the bleeding and put a W in the column for our fighters. Take Care
 
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Maple leaf,

I call clinching and punching in the clinches and trapping your opponent in a corner or against the ropes in figting. I agree this would be a a less than optimal style for Addy Lee. I feel our disagreement is semantics. He does need to learn how to cope with infighters who fight like Vera or he will have a short career as a boxer. I also agree with Kukuclan that he need to learn to clinch and tie up his opponents arms to give himself a breather. I would also like to see him fight longer fights. This 7 rounder was the longest he has fought to date and frankly he looked tired to me.&nb sp;
 

JD074

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Is it possible that Lee doesn't know how to do something as basic as clinching? Or was he just too stubborn or panicked to know that that's what he needed to do? And his trainer is the guy who trains Klitschko. Unbelievable. When you look at Lee's performance, and compare that to Casamayor's performance, you can really see the vast difference between a novice fighter and a veteran. If Casamayor had been unable or unwilling to clinch, he would've been knocked out. No question about it. Nearly 100% certainty. One fighter beat the aggressive, strong, come forward fighter who had hurt him repeatedly, one didn't.

Unfortunately, my concerns about Lee's defense were well-founded. Normally, I like being right, but not this time!
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I always worry about a prospect's defense. It was solid in this fight, but like I said, it's very basic. He keeps his left hand up, but doesn't move his head or upper body much. I couldn't observe his footwork, because Falligo was so passive that there wasn't any need for much footwork (except for closing off the ring.) He was in predator mode the whole time; I'd like to see him make adjustments against a come forward fighter with good power. Occasionally Falligo would briefly brawl and he handled that well. But Falligo had neither the power nor the aggression to test his chin or defensive skills. Lee also had a cut or two. I think he received a head butt in the first round, and a left hand from Falligo opened it up in the third round. At least I hope that's what happened. We don't need another bleeder like Duddy.

After watching a bunch of vids with European fighters with questionable defense, I began to wonder if it had something to do with the way that European trainers teach defense. Now I'm not so sure. Lee has been training in America for years, but still has that defense. He's learned very little slickness- no head movement, no upper body movement, very little footwork- during his time in the States, with a supposedly legendary American trainer. Incredible.

I would like to see White fighters, in general, shore up their defense. There are so many White fighters with incredible offense- great power, great punching technique, excellent hand speed- and it makes me wonder if big punchers never fully adjust to not being in predator mode. It can't be a coincidence that many of the best defensive fighters aren't big punchers (Wright, Hopkins, Mayweather, Calzaghe, Malignaggi) whereas most of the big punchers have porous defenses. There shouldn't be any physical or mental reason why White fighters can't have great defense. They shouldn't have worse reflexes or vision. They have access to the same or similar training. I guess some people would point to supposed differences in fast twitch muscle fibers, but I doubt that's the reason, even if it were true.

JD1986 said:
Brian Vera wins an early stoppage over Andy Lee, after Lee wins every round up to that point.

I had it four rounds to two.Edited by: JD074
 

JD074

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Tired old White said:
I do have a question since Brain Vera appeared to be white why this a bad fight for white fighters. It looks to me like may have a two fer in that while this fight may be a small bump in Lee's career it surely advance another white fighter.

I'm guessing he's Hispanic.
 
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JD074,The reason why most members are bummed that Lee lost was that he was the more hyped fighter. He was described as a can't miss fighter. Vera was a opponent, a stepping stone if you will. His claim to fame was getting viciously KO'd on the Contender series by Codrington.

When one looks at Vera, he appears to have 1/4 mexican blood in him. I guess if he grew out his hair, he would definiately pass the 'eye test.'
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This was a big lost for Lee. Other fighters now will try to survive into the late rounds then test Lee's stamina and chin. He is going to have increase his defense and stamina or he is going to be flash in the pan.
 

white is right

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Lee's future looks murky at best. Future world champions that have lost to Vera level opponents are few and far between. I recall Bobby Czyz getting exposed by Mustafa Hamsho, but Hamsho was a former number one contender(back when that meant something), Wlad lost to Purrity but he was overwhelmingly whacking Purrity around until he ran out of gas. I recall 88' gold medalist Andrew Maynard getting cuffed around by Bobby Czyz and Maynard fading quickly after that. If Lee had been fighting at a faster pace and cuffing around Vera then I could see him learning better pace judgement. But this loss was more than that....
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As for Vera being white he looks partially aboriginal to me and his name is Spanish, so I am pretty much certain he at least part Mexican.
 

The Hock

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With Emmanual Steward calling him a "future hall of famer" I was expecting more than what I saw from Andy Lee. I always hold my breath with Irish fighters, especially when they are fighting tough Mexicans. Often when an Irish guy attains a certain level then gets turned back, it's a Mexican on the other end. Barry McGuigan-Stevie Cruz would be a prime example.

Lee should take a rest, maybe spend some time at the pub. He and Bernard Dunne can stand the house some pints and discuss learning to duck and throw follow-up punches.

If Andy doesn't improve, I don't know what his future holds.

He's a good looking kid. I wonder can he sing?



Edited by: The Hock
 

JD074

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Kukulcan said:
JD074,The reason why most members are bummed that Lee lost was that he was the more hyped fighter.

I understand that. But I still think he's Hispanic.
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I don't want to get in a "Is he white?" argument. That's just my guess and I'll leave it at that.
 
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