White Starters - 2014 NFL Season

[Claimjumper]

Total white starters should remain pretty constant comapred to 2013 with roughly 174 white players projected to start in week 1 based on the most recent depth charts after the cuts to 53 man rosters. Skimmed through all the names pretty fast, so hopefully I didnt miss anyone...

A few interesting facts:

• The Browns, Packers, and Patriots are the only 3 teams projected to have an all white O-Line
• 13 teams are projected to start coal black defenses

White Starters By:

Conference
1. NFC - 90
2. AFC - 84

Division
1. NFC NORTH - 27
2. NFC EAST - 25
3. AFC SOUTH -23
4. AFC EAST - 23
5. AFC NORTH - 22
6. NFC WEST - 20
7. NFC SOUTH - 18
8. AFC WEST - 16

Position
1. Quarterback - 26
2. Center - 25
3. Tight End - 17
3. Linebacker - 17
5. Left Guard - 16
6. Left Tackle - 14
7. Right Guard - 13
8. Right Tackle - 12
9. Fullback -11
10. Defensive End - 10
11. Wide Receiver - 7
12. Defensive Tackle - 3
13. Safety - 2
14. Running Back - 1
15. Corner Back - 0

Offense / Defense
1. Offense - 144
2. Defense - 30

Team
1. New England, Green Bay - 10
3. Houston - 9
4. Cleveland, Dallas, Minnesota, Philadelphia - 8
8. Arizona, Atlanta, Cincinatti, Jacksonville, NY Giants, San Diego - 6
14. Baltimore, Buffalo, Chicago, Kansas City, NY Jets, San Fran, St Louis - 5
21. Carolina, Detroit, Indy, New Orleans, Seattle, Tampa Bay, Tennessee - 4
28. Denver, Miami, Pittsburgh, Washington - 3
32. Oakland - 2

Team by Team Breakout

AZ
Offense (6)
Jared Veldeer (LT), Ted Larsen (LG), Lyle Sendlein (C),John Carlson (TE), Troy Niklas (TE), Carson Palmer (QB)
Defense (0)

ATL
Offense (4)
Jake Matthews (LT), Joe Hawley (C), Matt Ryan (QB), Patrick Dimarco (FB)
Defense (2)
Kroy Bierman (DE), Paul Worrilow (LB)

BAL
Offense (5)
Marshal Yanda (RG), Ricky Wagner (RT), Dennis Pitta (TE), Joe Flacco (QB), Kyle Juszczyk (FB)
Defense (0)

BUF
Offense (4)
Eric Wood (C), Kraig Urbik (RG), Erik Pears (RT), Scott Chandler (TE)
Defense (1)
Kyle Williams (DT)

CAR
Offense (2)
Ryan Kalil (c), Greg Olsen (TE)
Defense (2)
Luke Kuechly (LB), Chase Blackburn (LB)

CHI
Offense (3)
Jay Cutler (QB), Matt Slauson (LG), Kyle Long (RG)
Defense (2)
Jared Allen (DE), Shea Mcclennin (LB)

CIN
Offense (6)
Andrew Whitworth (LT), Andy Dalton (QB), Clint Boling (LG), Russell Bodine (C), Kevin Zeitler (RG), Tyler Eifert (TE)
Defense (0)

CLE
Offense (7)
Joe Thomas (LT), Joel Bitonio (LG), Bryan Hoyer (QB), Alex Mack (C), John Greco (RG), Mitchell Schwartz (RT), Jordan Cameron (TE)
Defense (1)
Paul Kruger (LB)

DAL
Offense (7)
Tony Romo (QB), Travis Frederick (C), Zack Martin (RG), Doug Free (RT), Jason Whitten (TE), Gavis Escobar (TE), Tyler Clutts (FB)
Defense (1)
Nick Hayden (DT)

DEN
Offense (2)
Peyton Manning (QB), Wes Welker (WR)
Defense (1)
Derek Wolfe (DE)

DET
Offense (4)
Riley Reiffe (LT), Dominic Raiola (C), Matthew Stafford (QB), Jed Collins (FB)
Defense (0)

GB
Offense (8)
Jordy Nelson (WR), Aaron Rodgers (QB), David Bahktiari (LT), Josh Sitton (LG), JC Tretter (C), TJ Lang (RG), Bryan Bulaga (RT), John Kuhn (FB)
Defense (2)
AJ Hawk (LB), Clay Matthews (LB)

HOU
Offense (5)
Ryan Fitzpatrick (QB), Chris Myers (C), Ben Jones (LG), Garrett Graham (TE), Jay Prosch (FB)
Defense (4)
JJ Watt (DE), Jered Crick (DE), Brooks Reid (LB), Brian Cushing (LB)

IND
Offense (3)
Andrew Luck (QB), Anthony Castanzo (LT), Jack Mewhort (LG)
Defense (1)
Bjorn Werner (LB)

JAX
Offense (5)
Luke Joeckel (LT), Zane Beadles (LG), Luke Bowanko (C), Chad Henne (QB), Toby Gerhart (RB)
Defense (1)
Paul Posluszny (LB)

KC
Offense (4)
Alex Smith (QB), Eric Fisher (LT), Anthony Fasano (TE), Anthony sherman (FB)
Defense (1)
Mike Devito (DE)

MIA
Offense (3)
Bran Hartline (WR), Ryan Tannehill (QB), Daryn Colledge (LG)
Defense (0)

MIN
Offense (5)
Matt Cassell (QB), Matt Kalil (LT), John Sullivan (C), Brandon Fusco (RG), Kyle Rudolph TE)
Defense (3)
Harrison Smith (S), Brian Robinson (DE), Chad Greenway (LB)

NWE
Offense (9)
Tom Brady (QB), Rob Gronkowski (TE), Danny Amendola (WR), Julian Edelman (WR), Nate Solder (LT), Josh Kline (LG), Ryan Wendell (C), Dan Connolly (RG), Sebastian Vollmer (RT)
Defense (1)
Rob Ninkovich (DE)

NO
Offense (4)
Drew Brees (QB), Tim Lelito (C), Zach Strief (RT), Erik Lorig (FB)
Defense (0)

NYG
Offense (6)
Geoff Schwartz (LG), Eli Manning (QB), JD Walton (C), Brandon Mosley (G), Justin Pugh (RT), Henry Hyonski (FB)
Defense (0)

NYJ
Offense (5)
Eric Decker (WR), Brian Winters (LG), Nick Mangold (C), Breno Giacomini (RT), Tommy Bohanan (FB)
Defense (0)

OAK
Offense (2)
Matt Schaub (QB), Stefen Wisniewski (C)
Defense (0)

PHI
Offense (7)
Rily Cooper (WR), Evan Mathis (LG), Jason Kelce (C), Todd Herremans (RG), Allen Barbre (RT), Brent Celek (TE), Nick Foles (QB)
Defnese (1)
Connor Barwin (LB)

PIT
Offense (3)
Ben Roethlisberger (QB), David DeCastro (RG), Heath Miller (TE)
Defense (0)

SD
Offense (3)
Philip Rivers (QB), Nick Hardwick (C), Chad Rinehart (LG)
Defense (3)
Sean Lissemore (DT), Jarrett Johnson (LB), Eric Weddle (S)

SEA
Offense (4)
Max Unger (C), JR Sweezy (RG), Justin Britt (RT), Zach Miller (TE)
Defense (0)

SF
Offense (3)
Joe Staley (LT), Daniel Kilgore (C), Bruce Miller (FB)
Defense (2)
Justin Smith (DE), Dan Skuta (LB)

STL
Offense (3)
Jake Long (LT), Scott Wells (C), Shaun Hill (QB)
Defense (2)
Chris Long (DE), James Laurinitis (LB)

TB
Offense (4)
Logan Mankins (LG), Josh McCown (QB), Evan Dietrich-Smith (C) ,Brandon Myers (TE)
Defense (0)

TEN
Offense (4)
Michael Roos (LT), Andy Levitre (LG), Brian Schwenke (C), Jake Locker (QB)
Defense (0)

WAS
Offense (2)
Kory Liechtenstieger (C), Tyler Polumbus (RT)
Defnese (1)
Ryan Kerrigan (LB)

 

[Animalmuther0]

Looks like I will be a NE and GB fan this year. Not much to root for on defenses.

 

[Carolina Speed]

Although the amount of white starters is bleak especially on defense, I really appreciate the breakdown. Thank you Claimjumper.

At least I know now who to watch. Looks like NE, GB, and some Houston and Philadelphia, as well as keeping updated on Gerhart, Woodhead, and Manziel, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[Lugnut]

You can add Cole Beasley as starter for Dallas and Margus Hunt as starter for Cincy

 

[Vanilla_Sky]

Wouldn't be surprised if AQ Shipley starts at C for the Colts.

 

[GiovaniMarcon]

Really useful and informative chart!

I rarely actually see the football games (I read about them mostly on CF) but from the above list the Texans seem to have a healthy number (relatively speaking) on both sides of the ball. I hope they do pretty well!

Also I remember a year or two ago on CF we were saying how Buffalo had a decent number of White defensive starters. Whatever happened to that!?

New England continues to start a good number of Whites but only one defensive starter? I remember a couple of years ago there were like three.

 

[Woody]

Chris Jones, DT, is a white starter for NE.

 

[Hawkeye2]

Jones is mixed.

 

[dwid]

2 safeties is ridiculous with the amount of White safeties in college that have the talent/measurables etc.

although I am curious as to how many rotational players we have, I consider Woodhead a starter because they have a role carved out for him, at least last year they did, the same with Darren Sproles, i dunno what you call them, not just 3rd down backs but satellite backs. An upgrade from the blocking backs that we used to have, like Brian Leonard, just in there to block on 3rd down and rarely saw the ball.

Then we have guys that play db in nickel/dime etc packages. I think Jim Leonhard will be used but we are still missing safeties, like Eric Smith who was cut and never was picked up, at 31 years old changing careers, good player too. Reed Doughty never heard from either, this is Jim Leonhards last year. Cooper Taylor was supposed to be used as a hybrid ss/lb as he was like 6'4 athletic and could stop the run. Then we have guys like Cody Grimm who was exactly this in college and did well when starting where are guys like him now? and Corey Lynch etc. I really like Vinnie Sunseri and think he should be starting but they arent going to let him jump Kenny Vaccarro any time soon, and he was just drafted last year so his best bet in the near future is as a rotational player.

The thinking is, you need someone like this to stop the new breed of tight ends. When we have guys like Rob Gronkowski that make excellent versions of these new tight ends, wouldnt it make sense to get strong athletic White guys to cover them? White guys excel in the slot, both ways, Julian Edelman looked promising as a db. Many black dbs get lost easily when they cant use the sideline to their advantage.

 

[TwentyTwo]

Thanks for the research Claimjumper!

Hard to believe the NFL roughly averages 1 white starter on defense...it bites that Kiko Alonso & Sean Lee are out for the season! Colin McCarthy hurt again too..

Also just 2 starting white safties?? WOW! Ironically Eric Weddle is arguably the NFL's Best Saftey & Harrison Smith easily in the Top 5!

We shall see how long the Danny McCray experiment last??....before even the dwf's are clamoring to get Chris Conte back as a starter! Jim Leonhard should see plenty of PT; Chris Prosinski could be a starter...hate to see one of the NFL's Largest DB's Cooper Taylor out again! Very frustrating Cowboys Matt Johnson on I.R. AGAIN! Hopefully Daniel Sorsenson eventually gets to start....Too bad the Saints are loaded at safety...Vinnie Sunseri has the talent to be a starter too!

Another IRONY....ONLY 3 DT's?? TWO arguably the BEST in(listed as End?) Justin Smith & Kyle Williams! And former 7th rounder Sean Lissemore..

Of course Luke Kuechly & J.J. Watt are understood to the BEST at their positions,,,,like Don said the other day...of the Top 100 Defensive Players in the NFL...7 of the Top 14 are white!

The Texans the Whitest Defense with 4 starters? 13 teams; nearly 1/2 the league no white starters? Ouch!

 

[Extra Point]

2 safeties is ridiculous with the amount of White safeties in college that have the talent/measurables etc.

One player that sticks in my mind is safety Lane Olson, who left college a few years ago. He played Division 2 football.

Olson tested out to have elite athleticism. He was not offered a Division 1 scholarship and never got a fair shot in the pros.

Last I heard the Jets were going to give him a tryout if he agreed to convert to a slot WR. The Caste Masters are always trying to get whites to convert from positions they have reserved for blacks.

Probably Olson is out of football. In a just world he would have gotten a Division 1 scholarship and would be starting in the NFL.

 

[Thrashen]

This is one of the most organized “projected starter” breakdowns I’ve ever seen at CF. Thanks, claimjumper!

My “hierarchy” of teams to root for is as follows:

1) New England - After Logan Mankins was traded by the Pats, it was projected that sumo Marcus Cannon would become a starter, but thankfully, Josh Kline seems to have beat him out. With two whites starting at WR, Gronk, Develin, an all-white OL, and Ninkovich and Vellano on defense, this squad should be a “CF Favorite” again. Hopefully some injuries at the LB position clear a path for Chris White.

2) Green Bay – The uncoverable Jordy Nelson is finally the clear-cut #1 WR and is poised for his best statistical season. Don’t be shocked if this son of a Kansas farmer leads the NFL in receiving. After Toby Gerhart, Nelson is the most important player to our cause this season. The Packers’ all-white OL, reserve WR Jeff Janis, the fan-favorite FB John Kuhn, and Hawk and Matthews on defense, this should be our #2 squad to support. The only piece they’re missing is a white TE. Perhaps 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] stringer, Ryan Taylor, can get some PT after the putrid blacks listed ahead of him are injured?

3) Philadelphia – Yes, I realize that this team’s roster features a league-high 25 whites, however, their “star” player is the undeniably-talented RB, LeSean McCoy. Foles, Cooper, Celek, Ertz, Casey, a 4/5 white OL, and Barwin on defense rank this team #3 in my opinion. Of course, a huge statistical year for one of their pass-catchers or a few injuries on defense could lead to starting roles for a number of white reserves (Matthews, Long, Bair, Hart, Maragos, etc), which could position this team atop of the list.

4) Houston – Despite featuring the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] most white starters in the NFL with 9, Houston lacks white skill players at every position aside from TE. Let’s hope that starting TE, Garrett Graham, becomes a star in the receiving game this season. Of course, their defense (the NFL’s most white-friendly with 4) is packed with white talent, so a big season from Watt, Reed, Cushing, and Crick would be great. Bill O’Brien was a white-friendly coach in NE and at PSU, so hopefully they make the playoffs.

5) Dallas - Even without Lee at LB, the Cowboys should be a palatable team to watch, especially if the lightning-quick and tough-as-nails Cole Beasley continues to get more snaps at WR with the departure of Miles Austin. After Bryant and Williams, Beasley should have a heavy workload. Witten should have another chance at a 1,000-yard season.

6) Minnesota – Offensively, it would be nice to see Cassell have a big season, for obvious reasons. TE’s Kyle Rudolph and Rhett Ellison should be the only white pass-catchers, however, reserve WR, Adam Theilen, could get some snaps should Jenngins, Patterson, or Wright get injured. Greenway, Smith, and Robison should be fun to watch on defense. Also, young tackling-machines, Audie Cole and Mike Mauti, could see some snaps at LB.

That’s about it, six teams to support. Of course, many other teams have value in the success of certain individual players. Gerhart in Jacksonville, Hillis in New York, Woodhead in San Diego, Cameron in Cleveland, Keuchly in Carolina, Pitta in Baltimore, Miller in Pittsburgh, Welker in Denver, Decker in New York, Hartline in Miami, Carlson/Niklas in Arizona, etc.

Then there’s the long list of teams with no white pass-catchers and little value outside of a white QB, some offensive lineman, or a defensive starter. Oakland, Washington, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Tennessee, Chicago, Buffalo (unless Hogan finally plays in the slot), St. Louis, Detroit, Kansas City, Indianapolis (assuming Whalen is buried on the depth chart), etc.

 

[foobar75]

Very good research CJ! I decided to run some numbers that further expose the sorry state of affairs in the NFL.

Take NE, GB, and HOU out of the equation, since their numbers skew the averages. For the remaining 29 teams, we're left with:

145 starters
23 on defense

Therefore, the average NFL team starts:

5 whites
0.8 white defenders

I think it's time to seriously consider why we should watch the NFL at all. For me, it's starting to go the way of the NBA. I think I will check the TV schedule each week, and if NE, GB, PHI, or HOU are on, I will tune in. Otherwise, there are many more productive things I can now do on Sundays.

Combined with the rapid blackening of the QB position at the college level and looking at these NFL numbers, it's pretty clear that we are losing the caste battle. At various points in the past 5 years, I thought we were seeing small cracks appear in the system, but these cracks have been repaired and the agenda marches on unabated. Sorry for being a downer, but the numbers don't lie and pretty much tell the whole story.

 

[foobar75]

Two safeties is pitiful. It wasn't that long ago (3-4 years back) when we had 8 teams starting a white safety, 1/4 of the league. That's the kind of crack I was hopeful about in terms of making small inroads in the system, but unless you're an absolute star, as a white player your position is never secure because the next afflete with a room-brightening smile and unlimited upside is only a draft away. Most whites get their chance due to injuries anyway, and no matter how good they play, are nothing more than a stop-gap measure until the "real players" are back in their anointed positions.

 

[Hawkeye2]

I've already decided, unless the Patriots, Texans, or Packers are playing, I will not watch the game.

 

[PamelaOC]

This is one of the most organized “projected starter†breakdowns I’ve ever seen at CF. Thanks, claimjumper!

My “hierarchy†of teams to root for is as follows:

1) New England - After Logan Mankins was traded by the Pats, it was projected that sumo Marcus Cannon would become a starter, but thankfully, Josh Kline seems to have beat him out. With two whites starting at WR, Gronk, Develin, an all-white OL, and Ninkovich and Vellano on defense, this squad should be a “CF Favorite†again. Hopefully some injuries at the LB position clear a path for Chris White.

2) Green Bay – The uncoverable Jordy Nelson is finally the clear-cut #1 WR and is poised for his best statistical season. Don’t be shocked if this son of a Kansas farmer leads the NFL in receiving. After Toby Gerhart, Nelson is the most important player to our cause this season. The Packers’ all-white OL, reserve WR Jeff Janis, the fan-favorite FB John Kuhn, and Hawk and Matthews on defense, this should be our #2 squad to support. The only piece they’re missing is a white TE. Perhaps 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] stringer, Ryan Taylor, can get some PT after the putrid blacks listed ahead of him are injured?

3) Philadelphia – Yes, I realize that this team’s roster features a league-high 25 whites, however, their “star†player is the undeniably-talented RB, LeSean McCoy. Foles, Cooper, Celek, Ertz, Casey, a 4/5 white OL, and Barwin on defense rank this team #3 in my opinion. Of course, a huge statistical year for one of their pass-catchers or a few injuries on defense could lead to starting roles for a number of white reserves (Matthews, Long, Bair, Hart, Maragos, etc), which could position this team atop of the list.

4) Houston – Despite featuring the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] most white starters in the NFL with 9, Houston lacks white skill players at every position aside from TE. Let’s hope that starting TE, Garrett Graham, becomes a star in the receiving game this season. Of course, their defense (the NFL’s most white-friendly with 4) is packed with white talent, so a big season from Watt, Reed, Cushing, and Crick would be great. Bill O’Brien was a white-friendly coach in NE and at PSU, so hopefully they make the playoffs.

5) Dallas - Even without Lee at LB, the Cowboys should be a palatable team to watch, especially if the lightning-quick and tough-as-nails Cole Beasley continues to get more snaps at WR with the departure of Miles Austin. After Bryant and Williams, Beasley should have a heavy workload. Witten should have another chance at a 1,000-yard season.

6) Minnesota – Offensively, it would be nice to see Cassell have a big season, for obvious reasons. TE’s Kyle Rudolph and Rhett Ellison should be the only white pass-catchers, however, reserve WR, Adam Theilen, could get some snaps should Jenngins, Patterson, or Wright get injured. Greenway, Smith, and Robison should be fun to watch on defense. Also, young tackling-machines, Audie Cole and Mike Mauti, could see some snaps at LB.

That’s about it, six teams to support. Of course, many other teams have value in the success of certain individual players. Gerhart in Jacksonville, Hillis in New York, Woodhead in San Diego, Cameron in Cleveland, Keuchly in Carolina, Pitta in Baltimore, Miller in Pittsburgh, Welker in Denver, Decker in New York, Hartline in Miami, Carlson/Niklas in Arizona, etc.

Then there’s the long list of teams with no white pass-catchers and little value outside of a white QB, some offensive lineman, or a defensive starter. Oakland, Washington, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Tennessee, Chicago, Buffalo (unless Hogan finally plays in the slot), St. Louis, Detroit, Kansas City, Indianapolis (assuming Whalen is buried on the depth chart), etc.

I'd add Cleveland (8 white starters) to the list, especially if they let Manziel start at some point during the season. Which they should.

 

[Vanilla_Sky]

On the issue of safeties. Via rotoworld:

Chris Conte is expected to be the Bears' starting free safety.

Conte suffered a concussion nine days ago and still needs to be cleared. But he's going to get the first crack at the job after rookie Brock Vereen failed to overtake him. Ryan Mundy is the strong safety, while Danny McCray will concentrate on special teams. Chicago's safety spots remain question marks.

 

[icsept]

Very disheartening breakdown. Less than one defensive starter per team is outrageous. No wonder Peyton Manning broke every passing record last year at age 50 after 3 neck surgeries. Black defensive backs get burned repeatedly, continually and anonymously. Nobody knows what a defensive tackle does, because they're not measured statistically. So they just put 350 lb fatasses out there and tell you how great they are. White DEs and LB are always at the top of sacks and tackles when given the opportunity. It's just like the basketball myth: whites can't play defense.

 

[DixieDestroyer]

Outstanding detailed breakdown Claimjumper! Thanks for taking the initiative and time to put that together.

 

[Meireles]

Looks like I will be a NE and GB fan this year. Not much to root for on defenses.

There's no other way. Given I've grown up and lived in Wisconsin my entire life, I've always been a Packers fan. But most recently I've actually become more of a Patriots fan.

 

[Don Wassall]

The Texans' official website currently lists Jeff Tarpinian as a starting inside linebacker along with Brian Cushing. If that holds Houston will have 5 White starters on defense. However, Tarpinian has been battling Justin Tuggle for the starting job and some sites have Tuggle listed as the starter so we'll have to see how it plays out. The talk all off-season was about Brooks Reed moving inside next to Cushing but now Reed is back outside again, don't really know why as with his speed and strength he should be a natural inside.

Another position battle is MLB for the Vikings, where Audie Cole is fighting Jasper Brinkley. Brinkley is reportedly ahead of Cole as of now but this could easily change during the season. Brinkley is pedestrian at best and Cole did very well when he started at the end of 2013, so hopefully Audie will prevail at some point. Mike Mauti is just a backup as of now but he's another player with starting ability if given the opportunity.

 

[Freethinker]

On the issue of safeties. Via rotoworld:

Chris Conte is expected to be the Bears' starting free safety.

Conte suffered a concussion nine days ago and still needs to be cleared. But he's going to get the first crack at the job after rookie Brock Vereen failed to overtake him. Ryan Mundy is the strong safety, while Danny McCray will concentrate on special teams. Chicago's safety spots remain question marks.

The Bears are certainly no "caste busting" team but with 3 White starters they could make some noise. I expect Jared Allen to have his typically good season but we really need Shae McClellin to step up. He was a 1st round pick at DE and has shown some good pass rushing ability as a situational guy. This year he's getting a chance to start at WLB and he really needs to take the job and run with it. I just hope the position transition isn't too challenging.

It also goes without saying that Chris Conte needs to perform well. If he gets beat for a long touchdown or is even in the camera when an afrolete gets burned, the DWFs of Chicongo will be calling for his head.

 

[referendum]

Claimjumper, beautiful write up. I've done the last few years, but a more barebones version. Last year had just about the same, the mid 170's to start the year, but went up a bit mid season. 2011 and 2012 had about 190, and 2010 about 178 to start the year.
I recall the number of somewhere about 40 white starters league wide over the last few years, so thats where the decline is really coming in.
A couple updates, Jacksonville will have Austin Pasztor as starter once he's back from an injury, and Colts are going to start Shipley at center but not sure for how long.

 

[Tannehill17]

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Jordan Tripp start for the Dolphins at some point in the season. The Dolphins linebacking corps is horrible so he'll probably get his chance sooner rather than later.

 

[woody39]

Chris Jones or Joe Vellano will probably start opposite Willfork at defensive tackle for the Pats my guess is Vellano as he sat out the fourth pre season game. He may well be a starter for them.