The greatest mystery of all has to be why white sprinters seem slower now than back 50 years ago while black sprinters keep breaking records etc. I have a few opinions on it but scientifically it makes no friggen sense and is depressing like grim and grimmer.
White sprinters slowing down?
- Thread starter sunshine
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Sean Carlisle
Guru
Maybe white sprinters hit a plateau (sp) back then by working hard and getting the most out of what God gave them. Now lazy blacks have finally got around to working hard enough and taking enough drugs to improve to where they are.
Its not over. Invariably some resourceful white scientist or coach will come up with something legal to enhance white sprinters' times. It may not even take that. It might just take good old fashion hard work which is truly the secret to success.
Its not over. Invariably some resourceful white scientist or coach will come up with something legal to enhance white sprinters' times. It may not even take that. It might just take good old fashion hard work which is truly the secret to success.
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Sean Carlisle said:
Let's say track stopped in 1970. Yep..banned.
So..Bob Hayes,Jimmy Hines,Tommie Smith,John Carlos,Charlie Greene,Frank Budd,Ray Norton,Ira Murchison,Leamon King,Willie Williams,Barney Ewell,Harrison Dilliard,Mozelle Ellerbe,Ralph Metcalfe,Eulace Peacock,Eddie Tolan,Jesse Owens and Howard Drew who was running world records prior to 1920 were on drugs?
Is there any intelligent life on this board? It appears all we see here is a bunch of racists who can't deal with reality.Edited by: Blind Willie
albinosprint
Mentor
your missing the whole point to this forum. what you got to understand is that this board is not about whites being faster then blacks. this forum is about breaking down stereo type that whites can't be as fast as black. hence, Jeremy Wariner for example. it would be like a bunch of black guys having a forum on blacks not being dumb. like George Washington Carver for example
G
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albinosprint said:
Stop it..ok? I've been reading this forum for years...ok? Trust me I know what this forum is "really" all about...ok?
If that's true, which I doubt. Then why do you still not get it. Is reading comprehension a problem for you? Let me ask you a question. Why do black guys suck in swimming competitions. Surely most of you guys can afford a swimsuit.
Also, why did the USA mostly black Olympic boxing team recently lose every fight against all white Russia in a boxing competition recently? EVERY FIGHT!
BW The forum is made up of people with various backgrounds and ideas and is not monolithic by any stretch. I think that stopping the notion of black superiority is one of true quests of this forum so the real question is if one believes that blacks are better should public policy follow? I mean Hitler thought the Germans were the best race and started eliminating other groups along with many disabled Germans. Unlike many I would not be shocked if a form of white elimination started taking place down the road if things continue down the same path.
Also in women's sprints whites have fared much better than their male counterparts over the past 50 years.
And it makes no historic sense to think white male sprinters were faster from 1950-1960 than now but that is seemingly the case. This is reality all right with a giant question mark splattered down the middle.
Also in women's sprints whites have fared much better than their male counterparts over the past 50 years.
And it makes no historic sense to think white male sprinters were faster from 1950-1960 than now but that is seemingly the case. This is reality all right with a giant question mark splattered down the middle.
In 72, Borzov held the sea level world record and won double gold in Munich (after Jim Hines, John Carlos and Tommie Smith). Up to 1980, white performance advanced slightly via Pietro Mennea and Marian Woronin.
After that, things declined. With black sprinters, advancement continued. Why did the white development stop and actually regress? THAT'S THE QUESTION. Even if whites are slower, they should still advance even if it's at a slower pace than blacks.
In all sports whites are not shut out of, they continue to advance. Their times and amounts improve. Why in this small area of the 100 meter dash has there been a regression? This is an anomaly, a legitimate question.
Some people who post here have made a serious attempt to try and answer a hard to answer question. Other people prefer to not think it out, and just make blanket statement about racists or whatever. This is the easy way out. They produce the typical knee jerk response the media and education system has trained in to them. Willie makes no attempt to answer the question. To him, we don't even have the right to ask the question.
For example. I don't hate Jews, but I question sending billions to Israel and the wars in the Middle East. Therefore I am an anti semite because that's how Willie's mentors taught him to react to me. Willie is very typical and predictable.
After that, things declined. With black sprinters, advancement continued. Why did the white development stop and actually regress? THAT'S THE QUESTION. Even if whites are slower, they should still advance even if it's at a slower pace than blacks.
In all sports whites are not shut out of, they continue to advance. Their times and amounts improve. Why in this small area of the 100 meter dash has there been a regression? This is an anomaly, a legitimate question.
Some people who post here have made a serious attempt to try and answer a hard to answer question. Other people prefer to not think it out, and just make blanket statement about racists or whatever. This is the easy way out. They produce the typical knee jerk response the media and education system has trained in to them. Willie makes no attempt to answer the question. To him, we don't even have the right to ask the question.
For example. I don't hate Jews, but I question sending billions to Israel and the wars in the Middle East. Therefore I am an anti semite because that's how Willie's mentors taught him to react to me. Willie is very typical and predictable.
white is right
Hall of Famer
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Whack job you want to me to go over the list of the white world record holders of that period too? Here are the list of white names who have had the world record post Tolan as I won't include Paddock because he had no major black competitors. Percy Williams, Arthur Jonath, Chris Berger, Harold Davis(who ran the record in Compton California back when it was a white neighbourhood) Heinz Futterer, Bobby Morrow,Armin Harry, Horacio Esteves(he is a White Venezuelan) and Paul Nash.Blind Willie said:
Sean Carlisle
Guru
Blind Willie said:
Nobody is forcing anyone to be on this forum for years. If anybody does not like the forum they can choose not to view.Edited by: Sean Carlisle
albinosprint
Mentor
So where are those fast white American females? that's easy one, there running the 1500m. caste system, FACE!
I knew a kid that ran for my high school a few years after me. now keep in mind I come from a small Long Island school. only 68 kids in my graduating class. this kid won the NY state meet for our school by winning 4 events. the 100m, 200m, 4x1 & 4x4. our little less then 400 student high school won the state meet. he had a best time in high school of 10.42 in the 100m. great time for a white kid from NY who had a distance runner for a coach. when he got to college he was put instantly into the 400m. because why you ask? because he was white. plain and simple, if he had been black he would have been scouted to a good school and ran the 100m. now, not being built for the 400m due to lack of stamina (only got down to a 47.11), quit college track in his 2nd year and never went back. the caste system is hard at work in the USA.
I knew a kid that ran for my high school a few years after me. now keep in mind I come from a small Long Island school. only 68 kids in my graduating class. this kid won the NY state meet for our school by winning 4 events. the 100m, 200m, 4x1 & 4x4. our little less then 400 student high school won the state meet. he had a best time in high school of 10.42 in the 100m. great time for a white kid from NY who had a distance runner for a coach. when he got to college he was put instantly into the 400m. because why you ask? because he was white. plain and simple, if he had been black he would have been scouted to a good school and ran the 100m. now, not being built for the 400m due to lack of stamina (only got down to a 47.11), quit college track in his 2nd year and never went back. the caste system is hard at work in the USA.
G
Guest
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albinosprint said:
Lets go all the way back to the very beginnings. Where are those white female American sprinters?
albinosprint
Mentor
they are being pushed into other events you dumb ass. blind dick, you just don't get it!
yuri malenkov
Guru
In todays world of track running a talented athlete has to come into contact with a talented coach and in the short sprints, has to have a superior drug program.
white americans with sprint talent dont usually come into contact with a great coach because of the caste system that runs the sports world in the us. then they miss out on the necessary drug program to produce sub 10.00 times as well.
as for all time clean times by race: black :kim collins (******* from the west indies) 9.98/ asian: nobura ashahara (japan)10.00/ white: matt shirvington (australia) 10.03.
it seems all races run around the same extreme without drugs.
shirvington by the way never came into contact with a great coach, the australian institute of sport had former soviet coach michael klym and he is a B level coach at best.
white americans with sprint talent dont usually come into contact with a great coach because of the caste system that runs the sports world in the us. then they miss out on the necessary drug program to produce sub 10.00 times as well.
as for all time clean times by race: black :kim collins (******* from the west indies) 9.98/ asian: nobura ashahara (japan)10.00/ white: matt shirvington (australia) 10.03.
it seems all races run around the same extreme without drugs.
shirvington by the way never came into contact with a great coach, the australian institute of sport had former soviet coach michael klym and he is a B level coach at best.
white lightning
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Have you ever considered getting involved in coaching track yuri? I think that you have a good knowledge and you could start with the youth. We need more open minded coaches who don't belive in racial slotting. In the US, the kids are really discouraged for the most part. They are looked down on and told that they should stick to certain sports or positions. I keep waiting for a massive white awakening in sports here. I think that we are seeing a few cracks in the dam but nothing but a few kids have realized that they can compete yet.
I want to see these kids have white adult sports heros to look up to. They need to belive in themselves and quit listening to the negative stereotypes. That is why whites in Europe on the average are mentally stronger and they compete with less off a fear of the black athletes.
I want to see these kids have white adult sports heros to look up to. They need to belive in themselves and quit listening to the negative stereotypes. That is why whites in Europe on the average are mentally stronger and they compete with less off a fear of the black athletes.
mastermulti
Master
"Lets go all the way back to the very beginnings. Where are those white
female American sprinters?"
GUEST
Hi there Brutal, long time no hear!
Whites do seem to be funnelled into other sports in the U.S, but the same
is happening elsewhere.
In the 80s there were some reasonable white French sprinters for
instance, the best being Guillierve as a 200 runner. They have none now
and some have based their hopes on a fast young white teenager
(Christophe Lemaitre) who'll now have the weight of the world on his
shoulders trying to be top against 10 times that number of young black
Frenchmen. This is a similar position to Pickering in the U.K.
I for one believe there to be a small but significant difference in sprinting
ability between those of West African decent and others. This doesn't
mean there won't be a white sprinter going sub 10..... there will, someone
will have the right combination of tools.... but coaches and sports
administrators will naturally look to those they believe will have the best
chance of success. That means they'll look to pick up kids deemed to
have more chance of having the prerequisite skills and tools for success.
But while this is a common sense move on their part, I don't want to see
fast white kids' dreams be crushed before they get started.
Happily people like Wariner and our Sally McLellan (recent 12.53/100H)
are succeeding......... it'll take not only superbly physically talented but
also mentally robust whites to function at the highest levels of this sportEdited by: mastermulti
female American sprinters?"
GUEST
Hi there Brutal, long time no hear!
Whites do seem to be funnelled into other sports in the U.S, but the same
is happening elsewhere.
In the 80s there were some reasonable white French sprinters for
instance, the best being Guillierve as a 200 runner. They have none now
and some have based their hopes on a fast young white teenager
(Christophe Lemaitre) who'll now have the weight of the world on his
shoulders trying to be top against 10 times that number of young black
Frenchmen. This is a similar position to Pickering in the U.K.
I for one believe there to be a small but significant difference in sprinting
ability between those of West African decent and others. This doesn't
mean there won't be a white sprinter going sub 10..... there will, someone
will have the right combination of tools.... but coaches and sports
administrators will naturally look to those they believe will have the best
chance of success. That means they'll look to pick up kids deemed to
have more chance of having the prerequisite skills and tools for success.
But while this is a common sense move on their part, I don't want to see
fast white kids' dreams be crushed before they get started.
Happily people like Wariner and our Sally McLellan (recent 12.53/100H)
are succeeding......... it'll take not only superbly physically talented but
also mentally robust whites to function at the highest levels of this sportEdited by: mastermulti
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
I agree with a lot of your post Multi. I think genetically, the "elite" white talent pool is predisposed for certain events, namely the middle distance events. I think the best shot for white world records are at 400 meter (Wariner still might do it) and 800 meter. There is also a shot at 1500 meters, but that seems to lean a little more toward being an Arab, Moroccan or Kenyan event. Whites could get the WR in the 400m hurdles because it combines middle distance with jumping and their could also one day be a white Liu Xiang in the 110 hurdles.
In 100 meters, if steroids were taken out of the equation as well as stereotyping and mental discouragement, IMO whites would still be slower than blacks over 100 meters, but would be competitive like in the days of old. I would say more like a .10-.15 second difference between the averages of the top 3 elites for both races compared to the current 0.3 second difference that seems prevalent today.
In 100 meters, if steroids were taken out of the equation as well as stereotyping and mental discouragement, IMO whites would still be slower than blacks over 100 meters, but would be competitive like in the days of old. I would say more like a .10-.15 second difference between the averages of the top 3 elites for both races compared to the current 0.3 second difference that seems prevalent today.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Observer made some interesting posts about how PEDs may be aiding blacks better than whites in short sprints. I will add something to that.
Blacks have slightly longer legs on average and because of "slightly" different anatomy around the hip and on the underside of the quad where the meniscus and hamstring strand down the elite black sprinter tends to get slightly better leg lift on average. This helps the black sprinter to have a slightly longer more open stride. However, elite black athlete's quads don't seem to be as strong on average among the elites.
I have not read up on calf muscles much, but there doesn't seem to be a black advantage there other than with leg length, in fact as far as calf strength elite whites may have a small edge. Whites have done phenomenally in the "springy" jumping events like the high jump and triple jump.
Also as mentioned by Observer in a previous post, elite athletes of west African decent on average also seem to have less stamina which effects them in recovery. With steroids they can train with Herculean type regiments helping with fast twitch bulk and recover better and the steroids have a more significant effect for sprinting with their longer legs and slightly different anatomy around the hip.
Therefore the slight white advantage in quad strength is nullified. The ability to get leg lift in sprinting has a lot to do with the muscles on the underside of the quad and also the anatomy of where the femur attaches to the hip socket. Blacks tend to have a small advantage in the latter two and whites have an advantage with quad muscles for push off IMO which also helps with short area re-direction and burst, squatting exercises as well as breaking tackles in football. I am basing some of this on opinion from watching athletes of different ethnicities in sprinting, football etc. and some from research I read in a Wikipedia article over a year ago.
But white athletes have not gotten slower since 1980, we just haven't gotten any faster. Armin Hary's 10 flat in 1960 was hand-timed and therefore was probably only a 10.1x electronic. Pietro Mennea ran a 10.01 in 1979 and Woronin ran a 10 flat in 1984. Shirvo and Macrozonaris both ran a 10.03 in the 90s decade, but overall the averages of both of their top 10 times are better.
Again, whites aren't getting slower over 100 meters we just aren't improving. I am hopeful though that with Europe not stereotyping the way the pathetic U.S sports system is that we will see more than one white sprinter go sub 10 next decade. There are lots of talented Euro juniors that might one day run low 9.9s and final at the Olympics!
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
Blacks have slightly longer legs on average and because of "slightly" different anatomy around the hip and on the underside of the quad where the meniscus and hamstring strand down the elite black sprinter tends to get slightly better leg lift on average. This helps the black sprinter to have a slightly longer more open stride. However, elite black athlete's quads don't seem to be as strong on average among the elites.
I have not read up on calf muscles much, but there doesn't seem to be a black advantage there other than with leg length, in fact as far as calf strength elite whites may have a small edge. Whites have done phenomenally in the "springy" jumping events like the high jump and triple jump.
Also as mentioned by Observer in a previous post, elite athletes of west African decent on average also seem to have less stamina which effects them in recovery. With steroids they can train with Herculean type regiments helping with fast twitch bulk and recover better and the steroids have a more significant effect for sprinting with their longer legs and slightly different anatomy around the hip.
Therefore the slight white advantage in quad strength is nullified. The ability to get leg lift in sprinting has a lot to do with the muscles on the underside of the quad and also the anatomy of where the femur attaches to the hip socket. Blacks tend to have a small advantage in the latter two and whites have an advantage with quad muscles for push off IMO which also helps with short area re-direction and burst, squatting exercises as well as breaking tackles in football. I am basing some of this on opinion from watching athletes of different ethnicities in sprinting, football etc. and some from research I read in a Wikipedia article over a year ago.
But white athletes have not gotten slower since 1980, we just haven't gotten any faster. Armin Hary's 10 flat in 1960 was hand-timed and therefore was probably only a 10.1x electronic. Pietro Mennea ran a 10.01 in 1979 and Woronin ran a 10 flat in 1984. Shirvo and Macrozonaris both ran a 10.03 in the 90s decade, but overall the averages of both of their top 10 times are better.
Again, whites aren't getting slower over 100 meters we just aren't improving. I am hopeful though that with Europe not stereotyping the way the pathetic U.S sports system is that we will see more than one white sprinter go sub 10 next decade. There are lots of talented Euro juniors that might one day run low 9.9s and final at the Olympics!
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
white is right
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Hary's 10 flat would be rounded to 10.2. As far as I know you add about 2tenths of a second to a hand time. That's why all of the training sessions seem so ungodly fast. Borzov supposedly did 9.7 in the Athletes Village in Munich. I agree with your view on steroids helping Blacks more than Whites. Just on the recovery this would help a racial group that has poorer stamina much more. Ben Johnson was a beast in the weight room and that was all steroids enabling his recovery.
albinosprint
Mentor
hand timing should account for .15 of a second. also now you can't jump the gun so add another .1 of a second. but, we now have rubber tracks instead of cinder which makes up for the .25 of a second. you also have better training techniques and sprinting spikes. you take a guy like Hary now and he would run a low 9.9x legit.
white lightning
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The biggest frustration for me is just that most of the white kids in the US are not into the sprints on a big enough level to make some noise. In England, Germany, Italy, Australia, and many other countries, white sprinters are very common. We have a huge population of whites in America but they are into so many different sports. Imagine a country like Jamaicca but only it being a nation of whites where sprinting was the national pasttime. Sprinting is the main source of pride there. We need more whites to take an interest in Athletics and sprinting in general.
I do see some hope however. These guys all have tremendous potential in the next decade because of their ages. I will list a few and we need to keep an eyeon these kids as they continue to progress. At least a couple if not several should break through to the elite level.
Craig Pickering 22
Dariusz Kuc 22
Michael LeBlanc 22
Shane Crawford 20
Christophe Lemaitre 19
Wilhelm Van der Vyver 19
Julian Reuss 20
This is a partial list of 100/200 guys who have a great potential to take it to the next level. They all have time on their side. In the past we had 3 guys for the most part in Nagel, Shirvo and Macro. Now we have multiple sprinters and hopefully the numbers will continue to grow. Who wouldn't want to be the first to go sub 10 and become a very rich man while doing so. It is only a matter of time although it is very frustrating the we have been stuck in neutral for a long time. It will happen and like I said before, it will be like a damn breaking. Many more will follow. I still predict that Pickering will be the first to do it. I just hope he can stay healthy.
Edited by: white lightning
I do see some hope however. These guys all have tremendous potential in the next decade because of their ages. I will list a few and we need to keep an eyeon these kids as they continue to progress. At least a couple if not several should break through to the elite level.
Craig Pickering 22
Dariusz Kuc 22
Michael LeBlanc 22
Shane Crawford 20
Christophe Lemaitre 19
Wilhelm Van der Vyver 19
Julian Reuss 20
This is a partial list of 100/200 guys who have a great potential to take it to the next level. They all have time on their side. In the past we had 3 guys for the most part in Nagel, Shirvo and Macro. Now we have multiple sprinters and hopefully the numbers will continue to grow. Who wouldn't want to be the first to go sub 10 and become a very rich man while doing so. It is only a matter of time although it is very frustrating the we have been stuck in neutral for a long time. It will happen and like I said before, it will be like a damn breaking. Many more will follow. I still predict that Pickering will be the first to do it. I just hope he can stay healthy.
Edited by: white lightning
waterbed
Mentor
If I train hard I give myself 1% to break 10.I did some sprinting this year but after a couple of weeks I did hurt my hamstring.We don't have sprinting here on highschools or so.we don't even have a trainer always.But I have got some good advice about lifting knees when you are on top speed running on you toes etc..Does anybody know some top speed exercises for next year? My strongness is my start and endurance(400/800 meter) but my top speed musst become better.
I know sprinters do a lot of weighlifting but do you have to exercise also when you are without weightlifting already 180+ lbs ???
I know sprinters do a lot of weighlifting but do you have to exercise also when you are without weightlifting already 180+ lbs ???
Waterbed, I remember last year you posted your times, which showed very good speed over a large range of distances. I remember thinking, "Waterbed is faster than Asafa Powell would be at 800m, and probably faster than Borzakovskiy would be at 100m".
I think that sometimes a "problem" for caucasian sprinters is that they respond well to rigorous training. Because of this, a caucasian sprinter will tend to inadvertently increase his endurance --- which is beneficial for most sports, but not necessarily beneficial for maximal speed sprinting.
I will let the more knowledgeable people give advice about specific exercises, but I would think that certain plyometrics and stretching would be especially helpful for a white sprinter because these will not convert a caucasian into an endurance athlete.
I think that sometimes a "problem" for caucasian sprinters is that they respond well to rigorous training. Because of this, a caucasian sprinter will tend to inadvertently increase his endurance --- which is beneficial for most sports, but not necessarily beneficial for maximal speed sprinting.
I will let the more knowledgeable people give advice about specific exercises, but I would think that certain plyometrics and stretching would be especially helpful for a white sprinter because these will not convert a caucasian into an endurance athlete.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
i wish you the best of luck, waterbed!
you are right. take for example Eric Shaffer from Arkansas. he was a high school All-American at cornerback and ran a 4.31 40, but was virtually ignored by big-time college programs. he is now toiling in obscurity as a freshman wide receiver at Division II Missouri State.
as a senior, Shaffer was the fastest kid in the state of Arkansas, winning state championships in the 100 and 200 among his other achievements. he has a personal best 10.57 100, despite only running track part time! if i'm not mistaken, he also played baseball during the high school track season.
why didn't someone offer him a track scholarship?
that kind of raw talent going completely un-developed/ignored is likely very common in the good ol' US of A, and it's "color blind" society.
white lightning said:
you are right. take for example Eric Shaffer from Arkansas. he was a high school All-American at cornerback and ran a 4.31 40, but was virtually ignored by big-time college programs. he is now toiling in obscurity as a freshman wide receiver at Division II Missouri State.
as a senior, Shaffer was the fastest kid in the state of Arkansas, winning state championships in the 100 and 200 among his other achievements. he has a personal best 10.57 100, despite only running track part time! if i'm not mistaken, he also played baseball during the high school track season.
why didn't someone offer him a track scholarship?
that kind of raw talent going completely un-developed/ignored is likely very common in the good ol' US of A, and it's "color blind" society.