white running backs in the 2008 Draft

[backrow]

i think in Chad's case, him being in service academy doesn't help him none.

 

[Mike]

Hall's not going to the combine has to do more with his service commitment and academic situationthan him being a white guy. Reggie Campbell is not going to the combine either and he's black. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


You have no idea whether or not he was asked about the possibility of attending. It might be very possible he was a prospective invite but was a no go for various reasons. Very few SA athletes ever go to the combine. They have actual work and responsibilities to take care of, unlike most college athletes. I'm still not sure how Caleb Campbell arranged to go, although I will be pulling for him.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

service commitments haven't stopped plenty of military academy players. although it's true that it's rare, invitations for them do happen... and someone with Hall's phenomenal season would seem to be a perfect candidate. except for that one problem he has, at least.

as for whether i have no idea if he was invited or not... give me a break!

various draft sites, including my favorite DraftDaddy, provides lists of invitees. and he wasn't on any of them.

 

[whiteCB]

&lt;SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;Hall's not going to the combine has to do more with his service commitment and academic situation than him being a white guy. Reggie Campbell is not going to the combine either and he's black. &lt;?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /&gt;&lt;o&gt;&lt;/o&gt;&lt;/SPAN&gt;


&lt;SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;You have no idea whether or not he was asked about the possibility of attending. It might be very possible he was a prospective invite but was a no go for various reasons. Very few SA athletes ever go to the combine. They have actual work and responsibilities to take care of, unlike most college athletes. I'm still not sure how Caleb Campbell arranged to go, although I will be pulling for him. &lt;o&gt;&lt;/o&gt;&lt;/SPAN&gt;

Chad Hall never got an invite Mike and I'll bet my life on it. He's a white one year starting RB for a service academy school(basically looked down upon school) and he's 5'8". I'm sorry but commitment or no commitment Hall never got an invite.

 

[Mike]

I never said Hall got an invite. I said that you don't know if he was considered for one or was considered to work out for other NFL teams. This routinely happens with SA players but for obvious reasons doesn't often materialize. You're going to just have to take my word on that one. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


Chad Hall was a great player. So was Reggie Campbell at Navy, who played three full seasons and who is black. Neither got an invite. Sometimes race isn't always the issue.


SA restrictions for non-AF players have stopped plenty of players since 9/11. You can hold up Kyle Eckel all you want, but the reality is that he's basically an idiot who ran into legal trouble and had to back out of his own service commitment. He's also a jerk in real life.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I said that you don't know if he was considered for one or was considered to work out for other NFL teams.

whether he was considered or not is irrelevant. the fact is, he wasn't invited. period.

You're going to just have to take my word on that one.

uhm, will you be offended if i don't? i like facts when someone makes such bold assertions. no offense intended, mate.

Chad Hall was a great player. So was Reggie Campbell at Navy, who played three full seasons and who is black. Neither got an invite. Sometimes race isn't always the issue.

of course race isn't always the issue. but in this case it would appear to be. but in comparing Hall to Campbell, you bring up an interesting case...

first of all, Reggie Campbell, while certainly a talented runner, would NEVER have received a Division I scholarship if he were white. he is listed by the Naval Academy as being 5-6, 168 pounds as a senior! that's shorter than Danny Woodhead and 30 pounds lighter! and we all know what recruiters told Woodhead.

secondly, Chad Hall wasn't recruited as a running back, but as a receiver, and didn't get the chance to be a primary runner until his senior year. interesting that a 5-8 man who can run has to play receiver to get on the field, isn't it?

thirdly, Hall's senior year alone nearly matches Campbell's FOUR YEAR totals! in his FOUR YEARS, Campbell ran for 1,790 yards and 17 touchdowns, and had 830 yards and 8 touchdowns receiving.

compare that to Hall's senior year: 1,478 yards and 15 touchdowns rushing; 524 yards and 1 touchdown receiving. but just to compare apples to apples, in his three seasons (only two of which was he a consistent contributor) Hall ran for 2,606 yards and 21 touchdowns and had 780 yards and 3 touchdowns receiving.

Campbell does have the edge as a return man, but Hall was the only player in the nation to lead his team in receiving, rushing, and return yardage in Division I.

while Campbell is certainly a good player, in my opinion he's certainly not in Hall's class. but my opinion obviously doesn't count for much with the NFL.

You can hold up Kyle Eckel all you want, but the reality is that he's basically an idiot who ran into legal trouble and had to back out of his own service commitment. He's also a jerk in real life.

he ran into legal trouble... interesting. all the charges were dropped (which may or may not mean he was innocent, of course), but the Navy's official spokesman said the charges had nothing to do with his dismissal from service. furthermore, i'm sure he's a REAL BIG jerk compared to those scholarly gentlemen of the negro variety that fill NFL rosters despite felony rap sheets longer than Kelly Pavlik's arms. yeah, that's a REAL GOOD reason to castigate him.

Chad Hall is an outstanding football player who is worthy of playing in the NFL. but he certainly has a BIG hill to climb in order to do so.

 

[Mike]

Chad Hall had 230 carries in 2007. Reggie Campbell had 71. In fact, in four years of action, <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Campbell</st1lace></st1:City> only had 231 carries combined. Of course his yardage output is lower. I'm not trying to draw an output comparison here. I'm trying to say here you have two guys- one white, one black-who both played for SA teams. Similar size, similar positions (Hall was more or less a slotback), almost the exact same skill sets. Neither goes to the combine. It has more to do with size and service status than anything else. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


Reggie would have had an offer from Navy regardless of what his race was. He was exactly what the program was looking for at the time. Why he had an I-A offer relative to Woodhead has everything to do with geography and family history. Most programs are not going to go scout a kid (white or black) in the middle of <st1:State w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Nebraska</st1lace></st1:State>. Reggie comes from a military family which was one of the reasons Navy locked onto him in the first place. Don't hold the rest of the CFB world responsible for not recruiting Woodhead. Hold <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Lincoln</st1lace></st1:City> responsible (and there you are of course correct in bringing up race)


On Hall-


Hewas not recruited as a WR. He was recruited as an option quarterback. He played QB on the JV team in 2004. He was moved to slotback once he got to the varsity team. He was moved to a hybrid WR/SB position under TC. Inferring he could only see the field as a wide receiver on account of his whiteness is not only incorrect but unreasonable, especially when you consider Air Force's backfield was almost exclusively white guys and that TC's offense doesn't work on the same position distinctions as a conventional offense. Also, Hall led the team in rushing in 2006 as a junior (784 yards, 5.0 avg.) How the heck can you tell me that's not a "primary runner" position?


And your right. Chad Hall is worthy enough to get his shot at the NFL, and I would never deny him that. But after he does his service commitment. There have been far too many AF players in recent years who have neglected that part of the deal.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

He was not recruited as a WR. He was recruited as an option quarterback. He played QB on the JV team in 2004.

you're right, i should've been more clear. he was initially an option quarterback, but only finally saw the field as a wide receiver. in fact, he is STILL listed as a wide receiver on the Air Force website.

Also, Hall led the team in rushing in 2006 as a junior (784 yards, 5.0 avg.) How the heck can you tell me that's not a "primary runner" position?

because he didn't even lead his own team in carries, that's how. i said "a primary runner" not a running position. perhaps i should have used the definite article "the" instead of the less definitive "a." but i didn't realize we were splitting hairs here.

there were actually two other players who got similar numbers of carries to Hall, which means he obviously wasn't their primary runner. their quarterback actually had MORE carries (188 compared to Hall's 155) and the "fullback" had almost as many (102).

it was widely reported throughout the season that the coaches didn't recognize how good Hall was until after the beginning of 2007. that is when they made him the focal point of the offense.

now, back to Woodhead... you can't just blame Nebraska. he was the best running back in the history of their state (not to mention the top scoring basketball player and top soccer player, too) and put up his numbers in the BIGGEST DIVISION OF HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL IN THE STATE.

it's not like he played in some small backwater.

Nebraska, Kansas State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Colorado ALL said the same thing by ignoring him. "you're white. go home."

 

[Mike]

Who cares if he didn't lead the team in carries? It was a flexbone offense. It's never about one guy. My only point was that he didn't just come out of nowhere in 2007 like youmade it sound. How can you say he only "saw the field as a wide receiver"? He saw the field as a slotback in 2005 and 2006 and was a multi-purpose player in 2007. Your making too much of the distinction in positions. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
Maybe the entire Big 12 North said "no" to Woodhead (I didn't follow his recruitment so for the time being I'll take your word on it), but the point I was making is that you can't point to a guy like Campbell and say "yea but he got a scholarship only because he was black" on the basis of a guy in a completely different situation for the reasons I explained.


I don't want to argue this point excessively. All I'm trying to say is that Chad Hall being a white guy has very little, If anything to do with the lake of a combine invitation, which I believe was the original question here.


If you feel we need to continue these peripheral debates we can take it to PM.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Who cares if he didn't lead the team in carries?

a team's featured back leads his team in carries. that's why he's the featured back. and you claimed he was the primary runner, so the fact that he wasn't is quite relevant.

It was a flexbone offense. It's never about one guy.

this is a good point. but it could also be said that no offense is about one guy. there are 11 players on the field, as i understand things.

My only point was that he didn't just come out of nowhere in 2007 like you made it sound. How can you say he only "saw the field as a wide receiver"? He saw the field as a slotback in 2005 and 2006 and was a multi-purpose player in 2007. Your making too much of the distinction in positions.

let's just say you are right. then why not just call him a running back? that's what he is. interesting that they insist on labeling him as something else.

Maybe the entire Big 12 North said "no" to Woodhead (I didn't follow his recruitment so for the time being I'll take your word on it), but the point I was making is that you can't point to a guy like Campbell and say "yea but he got a scholarship only because he was black" on the basis of a guy in a completely different situation for the reasons I explained.

"Maybe the entire Big 12 North said 'no' to Woodhead?" Maybe? the facts speak for themselves, Mike. don't take my word for it, have a look at them yourself. i certainly encourage you to do so.

and i didn't say Campbell wasn't good enough to earn a scholarship. he certainly is a good player.

i said he would NEVER have received a Division I scholarship if he were white. and the facts bear this out.

i don't consider arguing factual analysis as peripheral, but if you wish to end this discussion then i will accept your request. but i imagine, from what each of us has made known, that we will have to agree to disagree on this one point. i don't think any PMs are necessary.

 

[Stonewall]

Mike, where do you get off calling Kyle Eckel a "jerk".

I'm not going to waste time engaging in an extended discussion/debate about this. But, for you to make a comment like that is pure bush league.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Danny Woodhead will be performing at his Pro Day tomorrow (March 5)... but it will take place at the University of Nebraska.

secondly, a running back who has had a phenomenal career, but one i didn't think would try to make it to the NFL, still hasn't given up on the dream. Justin Beaver of D-III Wisconsin Whitewater will be running at his Pro Day on March 5, as well. he will be working out at the University of Wisconsin.

Beaver has been a multiple All-American selection at UW-Whitewater, won the Gagliardi Trophy (the Division III Heisman Trophy), and broke the D-III single-season rushing record (2,455 yards). but somehow, at 5-9, the white tailback is undersized.

best of luck to both men tomorrow!

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Justin Beaver continues to defy his doubters. yesterday he performed for pro scouts at the University of Wisconsin's Pro Day. according to this blog, he wowed scouts. link to rambling blog

here's the relevant bits:

At 5 feet 8 inches tall and 192 pounds, those odds are a little long, despite Beaver's on-field performance leading Whitewater to a national Division III title and garnering the Division III player of the year. The odds got a little better this week when he wowed NFL scouts with an impressive workout at Madison this week - posting a 40-yard dash time that would have put him in the top ten running back tested at the NFL Combine in Indianapolis and a 20-yard dash time that was better than any posted there. Plus he bench-pressed 225 pounds 24 times. We hope that's good enough for the NFL to call his number and give Beaver a shot at his lifelong dream.

Beaver is virtually the same size as Danny Woodhead, another white speed merchant who plays tailback. while the two white men are repeatedly denounced as being FAR too small, at least 8 black tailbacks who were that size or smaller were invited to the NFL Combine. EIGHT! funny how black skin apparently makes them plenty big enough.

 

[Mike]

Mike, where do you get off calling Kyle Eckel a "jerk".

I'm not going to waste time engaging in an extended discussion/debate about this. But, for you to make a comment like that is pure bush league.

Stonewall, you're kidding me right? You're a Marylander and should know better. Eckel may be no worse than your average athlete in terms of what kind of person he is (a sad commentary to today's athlete) but don't sit here and act like he was some kind of shining example just because he's a white dude. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


Great news regarding Beaver. The kid has some serious ability. It'll be interesting to see if he generates the same buzz as Pierre Garcon, who some people are projecting as a late round pick. Any word on how Danny did?


Also, I think it's worth noting that Mike Viti hit 34 reps on the bench.

 

[Stonewall]

Mike, you have no idea what you are talking about.

What do you know about the Naval Academy?

What possesses you to continually bash white players? Get rid of the pompous attitude.

If you like blacks so much, that's your prerogative. Just go somewhere else with it. Nobody wants to hear it on this site.

Honestly, you come across as a jerk in most of your posts. You have no respect for veteran members of this forum (and I am not referring to myself).

Either fully support white players or go to another more "progressive" site.

Your posts offer no value.

 

[Mike]

Great news regarding Beaver. The kid has some serious ability. It'll be interesting to see if he generates the same buzz as Pierre Garcon, who some people are projecting as a late round pick. Any word on how Danny did?


You're right. Sounds like I'm really bashing that Beaver kid there. Obviously he's too slow to play on the next level. 4.45 speed? C'mon, a 40 year old black guy could do that in his sleep.


I'm not bashing any players. I've merely pointed out that Kyle Eckel, while an excellent fullback, is not exactly a guy I'd want my kid looking up to in real life.


Personally I'm very interested in hearing why you think I have no idea what I'm talking about outside of the fact that I fail to say "OMG great post!" after someone makes the same point over and over again.

 

[guest301]

&lt;SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;Great news regarding Beaver. The kid has some serious ability. It'll be interesting to see if he generates the same buzz as Pierre Garcon, who some people are projecting as a late round pick. Any word on how Danny did? </font>&lt;/SPAN&gt;


&lt;SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;You're right. Sounds like I'm really bashing that Beaver kid there. Obviously he's too slow to play on the next level. 4.45 speed? C'mon, a 40 year old black guy could do that in his sleep. </font>&lt;/SPAN&gt;


&lt;SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;I'm not bashing any players. I've merely pointed out that Kyle Eckel, while an excellent fullback, is not exactly a guy I'd want my kid looking up to in real life.  </font>&lt;/SPAN&gt;


&lt;SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;&lt;/SPAN&gt;&lt;SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"&gt;Personally I'm very interested in hearing why you think I have no idea what I'm talking about outside of the fact that I fail to say "OMG great post!" after someone makes the same point over and over again. </font>&lt;/SPAN&gt;

Just support the white athlete while you are here, why is that so freaking hard for you? That is what this site is all about. Stonewall gave you some good advice, listen to it.

 

[Stonewall]

Mike, look at the contents of this entire thread, it speaks for itself. You spend time going back and forth arguing with a senior member of this site. Then, you offer "to take it to PM" to further the debate.

No one else on this forum operates like that.

I'll say it again once more for the final time, your posts offer no value.

On more than one occasion you've openly criticized white players while supporting black athletes.

Either fully support the white cause or stop posting.

I'm not alone, you've seriously annoyed a number of forum members.

 

[Riddlewire]

I called this guy out on his very first post on this forum. He was trying to sell a lie about Danny Woodhead and I wouldn't let him get away with it. Numbers were released soon after that proved he was trying to manipulate the truth. He is not a trustworthy poster. His motivations are suspect at best. It's not my website, but if it were, I'd ban the troll. He's nothing more than a flamethrower.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

just so you guys know, Justin Beaver ran a 4.45 forty at Wisconsin's Pro Day.

that time would indeed have been in the top 10 of all the running backs at the Combine.

still no word on Danny Woodhead's Pro Day, though.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

JC, I was looking for Danny's Pro Day info as well and came up empty. I sent him a message through myspace, so maybe I'll get a reply soon.

 

[Mike]

Mike, look at the contents of this entire thread, it speaks for itself. You spend time going back and forth arguing with a senior member of this site. Then, you offer "to take it to PM" to further the debate.

No one else on this forum operates like that.

I'll say it again once more for the final time, your posts offer no value.

On more than one occasion you've openly criticized white players while supporting black athletes.

Either fully support the white cause or stop posting.

I'm not alone, you've seriously annoyed a number of forum members.

Wow. Let me get this straight... I've said Danny Woodhead missed an opportunity to impress at the Hula Bowl, pointed out that Chad Hall's lack of a combine invite was due more to is service obligation than race, and disputed the fact that Kyle Eckel is a good role model and that makes me public enemy #1 around here? Yea I've been critical, but I've never once said "player x can't play in the NFL because he's white and naturally does not have the ability of player y." Don't tell me my posts have no value. The mere fact that Jimmy Chitwood and Ihad a decent debate going early in this thread shows at least some value, especially considering some good points he made and DW. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


You still have not addressed why I don't know what I'm talking about. You're merely pointing out that I've been something of a pain in the ass. Yea I offered to take it to PM, exactly to avoid getting caught up in the discussion we're having now. I offer to take this to PM once again, completely on accountof the fact thatI don't want to detract from the discussion of a guy like Beaver, who had done everything right but will most likely be passed up because he doesn't confirm to the "looks test" of NFL scouts. I should of inquired about Beaver and Woodhead without rehashing the Eckel issue, but like you I enjoy defending my opinions.


I never saw a sign here saying that every black football player is to rooted against and every white player is to be rooted for. If I missed that, I'll gladly take a hike.

 

[White Power]

BYE

 

[Riddlewire]

just so you guys know, Justin Beaver ran a 4.45 forty at Wisconsin's Pro Day.

that time would indeed have been in the top 10 of all the running backs at the Combine.

Other notes on Justin's Pro Day.

Beaver was measured at 5-foot-8 and 192 pounds.

His best time in the 40-yard dash was 4.41 seconds. That would have put him among the top 10 running backs who performed at the NFL Scouting Combine last month in Indianapolis.

His time in the 20-yard shuttle was 3.96 seconds, better than any of the backs at the combine.

His time in the three-cone drill was 6.72 seconds, which would have put him in the top 10 among the backs at the combine.

Also, he bench-pressed 225 pounds 24 times. That would have been the 10th -best effort among the backs at the combine.

From here, which also includes some other interesting information. For example, the Pats and Colts are both interested in Justin.

 

[white is right]

I remember when DIII guys made NFL rosters(back in the 70's Ed Marinaro was a star back at Cornell). If Beaver can't latch on with a team in the NFL if he has good hands he could make a CFL roster as he has prototypical CFL size.Edited by: white is right