G
Guest
Guest
I'm with you there, foobar. I am so sick of teams not bringing their biggest effort to play Team USA. Starting last summer, when the Argentinians mailed it in in the Fiba qualifier final.Why do these teams go so passive? If they weren't sandbagging, it is really pathetic and I am disgusted.
When you play against a team that is faster and jumps higher than you, you have to play smart. USA fuels on emotion, so your first order of business has to be to prevent dunks and fastbreaks. Are the lessons of 2004 totally lost on dumb international coaches?
#1: Do not crash the offensive boards, because it leads to US fastbreaks. Newsflash to world: D'antoni is in charge of offense! Spain regularly sent three guys to the offensive boards, and got crushed by the US counter-attack.
#2: Pack in the zone, worry about drives first, and make USA win with jumpshots. Even when playing zone, Spain was pressing for steals, and aggressively closing down on shooters. USA does the most basic response in basketball: pump fake and drive. Do you really want D. Wade, L. James, and K. Bryant flying to basket in an open lane? Even if they don't dunk or get fouled, they have easy assists to other guys in the paint at that point.
Good lord, this is not brain surgery! Why can I figure this out but the Spaniards can't?
More from Basketball 101: On offense against an over-aggressive defensive team, use lots of fake passes and fake shots, which will open up backdoor cuts and lots of trips to the foul line. Yet did Spain do this? Not a bit! Watch some tapes of Larry Bird, for crying out loud. Newsflash to Spain: trying to beat USA with quickness and leaping ability is directly attacking their strengths! Arggg...
Finally: play with some passion! Scream, get angry, take a hard foul or two, have a no-dunk rule, pretend like you want to win, for god sake.
Australia usually does best against the USA for that very reason. Australians play tough and do not back down. I am happy to see the Aussies will be the first USA opponent in the quarters. My hope is that the Aussies will do to USA what happened to Spain four years ago: go 5-0 in pool, then lose the first game against an underperforming 4-seed, for a humiliating trip to the 7/8th place game.
Watching Spain against Greece was awesome basketball, because it was a total war. Against USA, it was like a totally different team, it was pathetic. They MAY have been sandbagging, they may just be stupid and mentally weak, either way, I am upset as a fan right now. If they get all the way to the gold medal game only to lay down like that again, I will be sick.
When you play against a team that is faster and jumps higher than you, you have to play smart. USA fuels on emotion, so your first order of business has to be to prevent dunks and fastbreaks. Are the lessons of 2004 totally lost on dumb international coaches?
#1: Do not crash the offensive boards, because it leads to US fastbreaks. Newsflash to world: D'antoni is in charge of offense! Spain regularly sent three guys to the offensive boards, and got crushed by the US counter-attack.
#2: Pack in the zone, worry about drives first, and make USA win with jumpshots. Even when playing zone, Spain was pressing for steals, and aggressively closing down on shooters. USA does the most basic response in basketball: pump fake and drive. Do you really want D. Wade, L. James, and K. Bryant flying to basket in an open lane? Even if they don't dunk or get fouled, they have easy assists to other guys in the paint at that point.
Good lord, this is not brain surgery! Why can I figure this out but the Spaniards can't?
More from Basketball 101: On offense against an over-aggressive defensive team, use lots of fake passes and fake shots, which will open up backdoor cuts and lots of trips to the foul line. Yet did Spain do this? Not a bit! Watch some tapes of Larry Bird, for crying out loud. Newsflash to Spain: trying to beat USA with quickness and leaping ability is directly attacking their strengths! Arggg...
Finally: play with some passion! Scream, get angry, take a hard foul or two, have a no-dunk rule, pretend like you want to win, for god sake.
Australia usually does best against the USA for that very reason. Australians play tough and do not back down. I am happy to see the Aussies will be the first USA opponent in the quarters. My hope is that the Aussies will do to USA what happened to Spain four years ago: go 5-0 in pool, then lose the first game against an underperforming 4-seed, for a humiliating trip to the 7/8th place game.
Watching Spain against Greece was awesome basketball, because it was a total war. Against USA, it was like a totally different team, it was pathetic. They MAY have been sandbagging, they may just be stupid and mentally weak, either way, I am upset as a fan right now. If they get all the way to the gold medal game only to lay down like that again, I will be sick.
James
Newbie
THE games of these Olympics are still Argentina vs USA. It always has been and there's no reason to see it any differently now.
I agree that the US team is too deep, too committed and too well prepared for international play by Coach K to get beat but huge upsets can always happen in sports.
I agree that the US team is too deep, too committed and too well prepared for international play by Coach K to get beat but huge upsets can always happen in sports.
It's a "conspiracy theory" to believe that a team would purposefully not try their best in an Olympic game, isn't it?
As for the refs calling traveling, they weren't calling it during the (admittedly brief) part of the game I watched. The Nightmare Team travels and/or palms the ball on every possession. As for the fouls being relatively even, that's because the refs are letting team USA commit blatant fouls over and over again, without penalizing them.
The Nightmare Team will win the gold, so you should be happy.
As for the refs calling traveling, they weren't calling it during the (admittedly brief) part of the game I watched. The Nightmare Team travels and/or palms the ball on every possession. As for the fouls being relatively even, that's because the refs are letting team USA commit blatant fouls over and over again, without penalizing them.
The Nightmare Team will win the gold, so you should be happy.
James
Newbie
Let me get this straight, you didn't watch much of the game yet you know what happened on every play?bigunreal said:
michiganblkman said:
Yeah, I heard Doug Collins say that too. They haven't played Argentina yet. I think Spain played their worst game. The U.S. shot very well for a change. They shoot like that and the zone will have to be scrapped. A sagging man to man is the best way to defend them when they are shooting well. If they can beat you with jumpers off the dribble or coming off screens then they deserve to win.
foobar75
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Bigunreal, you have no credibility in your assessment of these games. By your ownadmission, you catch 1-2 possesion every game, maybe watching about a minute or 2, and then you provide yourcritique as to how the entire game went?
It's not about me being happy or sad, it's about the reality. Several others have made very good points. These guys are too committed and focused this time around. Credit must go to Coack K and Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the staff who has done a very good job of scouting the opposition and getting the team ready to play. Andas far as the other teams go, it's tough to play against 2 NBA teamsthe whole game. The depth is a bigissue. While Argentina and Spainpretty muchhave NBA starting 5s, their 2nd units can'tquite match the USA. Still, Spain being blown out by 30+ is simply inexcusable on their part. I'm starting see a USA-Argentina gold medal game in the works, since the Argentinians appear to be peaking heading into the medal round.
Edited by: foobar75
It's not about me being happy or sad, it's about the reality. Several others have made very good points. These guys are too committed and focused this time around. Credit must go to Coack K and Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the staff who has done a very good job of scouting the opposition and getting the team ready to play. Andas far as the other teams go, it's tough to play against 2 NBA teamsthe whole game. The depth is a bigissue. While Argentina and Spainpretty muchhave NBA starting 5s, their 2nd units can'tquite match the USA. Still, Spain being blown out by 30+ is simply inexcusable on their part. I'm starting see a USA-Argentina gold medal game in the works, since the Argentinians appear to be peaking heading into the medal round.
Edited by: foobar75
Team USA had two NBA starting fives last time, too. The difference was that the referees did not allow them to blatantly violate the rules, as they do on a constant basis in the NBA.
I don't need to watch much more than a minute of any game involving NBA players to know whether or not the rules are being enforced. As I indicated, in each of those games, I saw egregious traveling violations not called by the officials, and a violent foul by the USA also overlooked. With a lifetime of watching these games, and recognizing their cultural and political significance to all of us, it's easy to predict the outcomes of these black vs. white match ups. Hint- blacks always "beat" whites, and it's no coincidence.
When you don't have to abide by the primary rule of basketball (traveling), it gives you a great advantage over your opponent. Furthermore, when your hard physical contact is termed "aggressive defense" while your opponent is called for a foul if he tries to be similarly "aggressive," it gives you another wonderful advantage. This is the main reason why blacks "succeed" over their white counterparts in high school, college and the pros.
The fact is, few of them are fundamentally sound shooters, passers or rebounders. They get away with murder on the courts by being allowed to violate the rules with impunity, and thus they look dominant over their (understandably) submissive white peers.
Call it Affirmative Action, but blacks are given special leeway to play their "game," and this Nightmare Team is clearly being granted the right to play in these Olympics just as they would on any court in the inner city.Edited by: bigunreal
I don't need to watch much more than a minute of any game involving NBA players to know whether or not the rules are being enforced. As I indicated, in each of those games, I saw egregious traveling violations not called by the officials, and a violent foul by the USA also overlooked. With a lifetime of watching these games, and recognizing their cultural and political significance to all of us, it's easy to predict the outcomes of these black vs. white match ups. Hint- blacks always "beat" whites, and it's no coincidence.
When you don't have to abide by the primary rule of basketball (traveling), it gives you a great advantage over your opponent. Furthermore, when your hard physical contact is termed "aggressive defense" while your opponent is called for a foul if he tries to be similarly "aggressive," it gives you another wonderful advantage. This is the main reason why blacks "succeed" over their white counterparts in high school, college and the pros.
The fact is, few of them are fundamentally sound shooters, passers or rebounders. They get away with murder on the courts by being allowed to violate the rules with impunity, and thus they look dominant over their (understandably) submissive white peers.
Call it Affirmative Action, but blacks are given special leeway to play their "game," and this Nightmare Team is clearly being granted the right to play in these Olympics just as they would on any court in the inner city.Edited by: bigunreal
James
Newbie
I wonder why white coaches, white referees, white team owners, white players and most especially all white teams like Spain don't complain about this so-called "blatant violation of the rules" caused by NBA affirmative action.bigunreal said:
Specifically with regard to USA vs. Spain, you might have a point if it was a five or ten point game, even a fifteen or twenty point game, but when you beat a team by 37 points, the refs obviously had very little to do with the defeat.
Spain lost that game on defense not offense. Spain turned the ball over 28 times and they were beaten on fast break points 32 to zero.
Spain shot 6 for 28 from three point range and as a team, they only had 12 assists for the entire game.
I take offense when someone attacks the character of one of the greatest white coaches of all time, Mike Krzyzewski by implying that he would take part in dishonest and fraudulent play that dishonors the game.
James
Newbie
For the record, I just checked the box score for Spain vs. USA. The refs called 28 personal fouls on the USA and 19 personal fouls on Spain.
celticdb15
Hall of Famer
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USA is better than we thought. Unless they get over confident, i don't see a slip up
. We all agreed we thought Spain had what it takes to bring them down, but they got killed. Dissapointing.
G
Guest
Guest
To set the record straight on the fouls: USA is by far the most foul prone team in their pool.
Total fouls:
USA 90
Spain 69
Greece 75
China 68
They play an extremely aggressive style of defense, knowing they have a very deep bench with high-jumping finishers, so they gamble and press, and rack up fouls at a high rate. However, they also have the highest number of steals and blocks, so their style of play is paying off.
As an anti-caste fan, I am not happy with them winning, but neither by personal observation nor by statistical analysis do I see any cheating or bias going on. Against Spain, for example, D. Wade was actually called for palming in the open court on a fast break.
Someone mentioned a USA-Argentina gold medal game, but as I have already laid out, that is not possible. The bracket is already set, USA will have to face the winner of Argentina-Greece in the semis, if they can get by Australia first.
Aside from the inconsistency of their effort, I think Spain might have been sandbagging because they did give themselves a much easier path to the gold, opening against Croatia, with a semi against the Lithuania-China winner.
Basically, to win gold, USA will have to beat Australia, then Greece/Argentina, then Spain/Lithuania. Their gold is by no means settled yet.
Total fouls:
USA 90
Spain 69
Greece 75
China 68
They play an extremely aggressive style of defense, knowing they have a very deep bench with high-jumping finishers, so they gamble and press, and rack up fouls at a high rate. However, they also have the highest number of steals and blocks, so their style of play is paying off.
As an anti-caste fan, I am not happy with them winning, but neither by personal observation nor by statistical analysis do I see any cheating or bias going on. Against Spain, for example, D. Wade was actually called for palming in the open court on a fast break.
Someone mentioned a USA-Argentina gold medal game, but as I have already laid out, that is not possible. The bracket is already set, USA will have to face the winner of Argentina-Greece in the semis, if they can get by Australia first.
Aside from the inconsistency of their effort, I think Spain might have been sandbagging because they did give themselves a much easier path to the gold, opening against Croatia, with a semi against the Lithuania-China winner.
Basically, to win gold, USA will have to beat Australia, then Greece/Argentina, then Spain/Lithuania. Their gold is by no means settled yet.
white tornado
Mentor
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I was disaponted with the spain game. I thought the Spainish with a few exeptions did not play with great effort after they got down big. The only way to beat the redeam team is to limit turnovers an make a huge effort to get back on D. With that said the U.S. is the beast team.
James,
You can't be serious when you say that white players, coaches, etc. would complain about blacks getting away with rule violations. First of all, the most vehement defenders of the Caste System in every sport are white coaches, general managers and owners. This has been going on for quite some time now, and no white ever complains, because they are conditioned not to.
A little history; back in the early 1970s, a great white center named Luke Witte was viciously attacked by a gang of black players during an Ohio State-Minnesota game. Witte was beaten so badly that he never again was a dominant player. The blacks who assaulted him, which included future baseball star Dave Winfield, were never appropriately punished for the violent attack. A great career was ruined because black players couldn't control themselves on the court. Some years later, NBA star Rudy Tomjanovich was suddenly and brutally attacked during a game by black player Kermit Washington. While Washington was suspended, Tomjanovich was never the same player again. Once again, all because a black player couldn't control himself on the court.
In neither of these cases did any white player, sportswriter, coach or general manager publicly complain about the kid glove treatment given to the blacks who committed such acts of violence on the court. So, whites acquiescing to black misbehavior is nothing new. Certainly at this point, with the NBA and the NCAA long ago having allowed the street style of play to supersede the rules of the game, no white connected to the sport is going to complain about anything. The few whites who are permitted to play in the NBA are so grateful that they would probably wear a dunce cap on the bench, if they were ordered to.
If Spain or some other white team were to complain publicly about the officiating, they would be soundly ridiculed by the jock-sniffers and drunk white fans.
You can't be serious when you say that white players, coaches, etc. would complain about blacks getting away with rule violations. First of all, the most vehement defenders of the Caste System in every sport are white coaches, general managers and owners. This has been going on for quite some time now, and no white ever complains, because they are conditioned not to.
A little history; back in the early 1970s, a great white center named Luke Witte was viciously attacked by a gang of black players during an Ohio State-Minnesota game. Witte was beaten so badly that he never again was a dominant player. The blacks who assaulted him, which included future baseball star Dave Winfield, were never appropriately punished for the violent attack. A great career was ruined because black players couldn't control themselves on the court. Some years later, NBA star Rudy Tomjanovich was suddenly and brutally attacked during a game by black player Kermit Washington. While Washington was suspended, Tomjanovich was never the same player again. Once again, all because a black player couldn't control himself on the court.
In neither of these cases did any white player, sportswriter, coach or general manager publicly complain about the kid glove treatment given to the blacks who committed such acts of violence on the court. So, whites acquiescing to black misbehavior is nothing new. Certainly at this point, with the NBA and the NCAA long ago having allowed the street style of play to supersede the rules of the game, no white connected to the sport is going to complain about anything. The few whites who are permitted to play in the NBA are so grateful that they would probably wear a dunce cap on the bench, if they were ordered to.
If Spain or some other white team were to complain publicly about the officiating, they would be soundly ridiculed by the jock-sniffers and drunk white fans.
Mr. Lutefisk
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I'm with bigunreal, the officals are one sided. Team USA can get away with anything. I suspect the officals got re-educated before the games this year as to not embarrass team USA again or else.
Mr. Lutefisk said:
It sounds paranoid but it sure looked that way during the 1st quarter this morning. Kaman got so aggravated about it that he played horrible. You can really tell more about what's going on on the internet feed where you can hear some of what the player's are saying. Of course biased referees try to make it look even after the game is out of hand. I hope we're wrong and that there is some decent officiating from here on out. By the second quarter, Dirk was yelling, "watch the reach in" as the pg brought the ball up the court. I have to believe he and Kaman know that they didn't get a fair shake against the Chinese or the "Americans" in these Olympics. I don't think Germany would have won this game anyway but still.....
GreatLakeState
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Regarding the Luke Witte assault, it is untrue that no coach complained
about the lack of punishment for the Minnesota players. Fred Taylor
complained against the schools, Big Ten and NCAA for the lack of
punishment. In fact, some contend he retired early because of the whole
debacle.
about the lack of punishment for the Minnesota players. Fred Taylor
complained against the schools, Big Ten and NCAA for the lack of
punishment. In fact, some contend he retired early because of the whole
debacle.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
the knock-out round of the tourney is FAR more important than pool play. this is where we will see if Team Nigeri(us)a can continue playing together as a unit and with such tremendous defensive intensity.
it is also where Spain, Argentina, Greece, etc. will not be able to take the night off. it's one and your done now.
in my opinion, this is where it gets good.
it is also where Spain, Argentina, Greece, etc. will not be able to take the night off. it's one and your done now.
in my opinion, this is where it gets good.
foobar75
Master
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A pretty decent article regarding the history of Team USA, beginning with the 92 Dream Team (and the nightmares that followed it):
[url]http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-olyheisler18-2008aug18,0 ,7171025.story[/url]
[url]http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-olyheisler18-2008aug18,0 ,7171025.story[/url]
Thrashen
Hall of Famer
"I wonder why white coaches, white referees, white team owners, white players and most especially all white teams like Spain don't complain about this so-called "blatant violation of the rules" caused by NBA affirmative action."
Wow, James, have you ever heard of the caste-system? Have you ever heard of the concept of: "racism doesnt exist unless it's coming from a white person?" The enlightened few who post here don't have time for your uninformed bullsh*t. Your posts are very nieve and scatter-brained, and boring...yet you continue to post. Why?
The "fix" is definately in for Team USA, evident during their game VS. China. The refs were told: "don't let Team USA lose yet again."
Hmm, I wonder what vested interest Olympic officials and the american sports machine have to lose if their precious, cherry-picking team gets embarressed again? The Answer = $
Wow, James, have you ever heard of the caste-system? Have you ever heard of the concept of: "racism doesnt exist unless it's coming from a white person?" The enlightened few who post here don't have time for your uninformed bullsh*t. Your posts are very nieve and scatter-brained, and boring...yet you continue to post. Why?
The "fix" is definately in for Team USA, evident during their game VS. China. The refs were told: "don't let Team USA lose yet again."
Hmm, I wonder what vested interest Olympic officials and the american sports machine have to lose if their precious, cherry-picking team gets embarressed again? The Answer = $
James
Newbie
So I guess that means the fix wasn't in in 2004 when Argentina won the gold and the US was barely able to win the Bronze.Thrashen said:
I don't mind your attempts at childish insults, that's your IQ level or age I guess.
Jabbar sucker punching Kent Benson. Broke Benson's jaw. Two minutes into Benson's first professional game.
Jabbar broke his wittle hand, was out two months, and received no punishment (logic being a broken wittle hand was punishment enough, paid full salary during injury). No scuffle, no warning, just walked up to Benson and broke his jaw. Oh, Benson did elbow Jabbar earlier while establishing position at the low post. Which happens, what, 90 times a game? Funny that Jabbar managed to control himself when playing Dave Cowens.
Benson eventually established himself as a mobile forward with the (Tripucka-era) Detroit Pistons. Much to his credit, really reinvented himself from low post center to all-purpose forward complete with outside jump shot. After 11 years retired wealthy. Well adjusted family man with extensive business interests.
Things like this help to explain why basketball is a black sport in America. High quality people like Benson have numerous sports and life options. If a game is rigged in favor of blacks they simply don't have to play.
The good thing about Team USA being so dominant in pool play is they have no excuses should they lose. They are proving international rules and international officiating pose no problem for them.
Jabbar broke his wittle hand, was out two months, and received no punishment (logic being a broken wittle hand was punishment enough, paid full salary during injury). No scuffle, no warning, just walked up to Benson and broke his jaw. Oh, Benson did elbow Jabbar earlier while establishing position at the low post. Which happens, what, 90 times a game? Funny that Jabbar managed to control himself when playing Dave Cowens.
Benson eventually established himself as a mobile forward with the (Tripucka-era) Detroit Pistons. Much to his credit, really reinvented himself from low post center to all-purpose forward complete with outside jump shot. After 11 years retired wealthy. Well adjusted family man with extensive business interests.
Things like this help to explain why basketball is a black sport in America. High quality people like Benson have numerous sports and life options. If a game is rigged in favor of blacks they simply don't have to play.
The good thing about Team USA being so dominant in pool play is they have no excuses should they lose. They are proving international rules and international officiating pose no problem for them.
white is right
Hall of Famer
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Sir anything is possible look at China and the judging sports. They are getting all the benefit of the doubt from the judges. It's known fact that NBA referees have buried the whistles for big stars in crucial situations. This is even acknowledged by writers,coaches and retired referees. Throw in gambling fixes and basketball becomes pro wrestling....James said: