The Caste System Goes Way Back

bigunreal

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As we mull over the annual, unjustified purging of white players from NFL rosters, we should realize that this has been going on for quite some time. What has been especially noticable is the way high profile white college RBs and WRs have been treated by the NFL, even as far back as the 1960s.

One of my first favorite football players was Notre Dame WR Jim Seymour. He was the most outstanding college WR in the late 1960s. He was drafted 10th overall, in the first round, by the Bears in 1969, but like his All-American college QB, Terry Hanratty, was simply never given a chance to play. The Bears WR corps, then as now, was pathetic, so there is no logical reason for this. Other outstanding white WRs who made All-American teams during the late 1960s-mid 1970s include Ron Sellers, Terry Beasley, Cotton Speyrer, Chuck Dicus, Dennis Homan, Barry Smith, Wayne Wheeler, Pat McInally and Larry Sievers. Only Sellers played much at all in the NFL, although McInally had a career as a punter with the Bengals. Somehow, all these outstanding college players never made their way into NFL starting lineups. Sound familiar?

There were fewer All-American white RBs even as far back as the mid- 1960s, but the ones who did stand out in college simply never made the transition to the pros. Nick Eddy was superb at Notre Dame, but was perpetually injured during his short career with the Lions. Notre Dame had other great college backs, as well, like Larry Conjar and Bob Gladieux, but they barely sniffed the NFL. Curiously, Rocky Bleier did have a long career with the Steelers, after playing second fiddle at Notre Dame to others who never made it.

Steve Worster at Texas and Johnny Musso at Alabama were two of the top college RBs of the early 1970s. Inexplicably, Worster wasn't drafted until the 4th round by the Rams and ended up in the Canadian Football League. Like Worster, Musso was drafted much later than he should have been (3rd round by the Bears) and also opted for Canada, before returning a few years later to the Bears, where he was given little chance to play. Ed Marinaro had a nice stint with the Vikings, but it was primarily as a third-down type of receiving back. He was never given a chance to be the main ball carrier.

John Cappeletti was the last white RB to win the Heisman Trophy (1973). He was a first round pick by the Rams (11th overall), and had a servicable career in the NFL, but never was given a chance to be a star. Other great white RBs in college, like Jim Otis and Steve Owens, struggled in the NFL at first but then had solid careers. Larry Smith, Walt Garrison and Jim Bertelsen all had their moments, but never were given the number of carries to produce big numbers. Donnie Anderson had some fine seasons with the Cardinals (after being traded by the Packers), but never became an elite back. Marv Hubbard and especially Mark Van Eegan came closest to having dominant careers, but still always had to share carries with a slew of others. Craig James had a great season with the Patriots, but didn't have a long career. John Riggins really has been the only star white RB in the NFL (excelling long enough to accumulate Hall of Fame-like stats) since Paul Hornung and Jim Taylor retired from the Packers.

From a historical perspective, we can see that, while the league was much whiter then overall, white RBs and WRs who were the best at their position in college often faced discrimination themselves, as long ago as the 1960s. Certainly, it's nothing as severe as what star college WRs now (such as John Standeford or Mike Hass) face, but there was clearly already a preference for black skill position players even then, by many teams in the NFL. Fromer Browns DB Bernie Parrish claimed, in his book "They Call It A Game," that it was known that certain teams even then preferred to select black players high in the draft, ostensibly because they thought they'd sign for less money. Regardless of the reason, the thought process was already there. For a long time, the NFL has considered race in some way, shape or form instead of pure merit when selecting its players.
 

jwhite96

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You are accurate. In the early years of the AFL, blacks dominated running statistics, although not even close to today's NFL.In the those first desperate days, the AFL made the mistake of deliberately going after black runners although there were good white running backs. The NFL began the caste system for running backs in the 1950s.After the early 50s, the NFL rushing leaders were mostly black.

There was a pattern. In the all white SEC and South Western Conference which includes all of the Texas schools now in the Big 12 plus Arkansas, there were white All American running backs,receivers.

But once in the NFL, these skills players wouldn't get the opportunities you would expect. Some would say they didn't play against blacks in college so they didn't play against the best competition. But in the mid 60s teams like Alabama would play teams with a lot of blacks in bowl games. The all white teams would do well in these games so that eliminated the not playing against blacks in college argument.Edited by: jwhite96
 

Don Wassall

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jwhite96 said:
But once in the NFL, these skills players wouldn't get the opportunities you would expect. Some would say they didn't play against blacks in college so they didn't play against the best competition. But in the mid 60s teams like Alabama would play teams with a lot of blacks in bowl games. The all white teams would do well in these games so that eliminated the not playing against blacks in college argument.

Excellent posts. The argument that baseball and football suffered in quality in years past because of the lack of blacks is increasingly hollow and baseless, especiallyin baseball, where 60 years of integration have yielded very few topnotch pitchers and an AL and NL that are but 9% American blacks despite strenuous efforts to build inner city baseball programs and academies and endless exhortations to blacks to "get interested in baseball" and constant whining when so few prove to be very good.

Football's a different animal, because the blatant discrimination against whites is covered up with ever more discrimination against them. I agree withKaptain Poop's observation in the WhitePurge threadthat mentioned fantasy football being a key reason why the NFL remains so popular in the face of the decline of the NBA. Fantasy football players are by and large the hardcore DWFs and they will overlook anything when it comes to arrests off the field and ignoring the obvious on the field, as long as they get their fantasy football fix. The rest of the DWFs are primarily fixated on their home team only and know little about any of the other teams much less the Caste System.

One need only see the intensity black defenders show when going after the rare white "skill" player compared to how lackadaiscal many are about tackling the rest of the time to see what a watered down, prevent-injury-at-all-costs-to-keep-the-paychecks-coming league the NFL has become, not to mention all the obese, out of shape players and the clown and thug behavior on and off the field. If racial dynamics were ever allowed to be openly mentioned and utilized, i.e., discussed fairly and the league opened to all talent on as color-blind a basis as is possible when it comes to race, not only the demographics would change, but the games would be far more passionate and entertainingthanmost gamesare now as football is a great sport.Edited by: Don Wassall
 

whiteathlete33

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Football was a great sport. It has now become somewhat of a comedy show. Black thugs celebrating after routine tackles, ridiculous end zone celebrations, and constant arrests by these great affletes.

I actually enjoyed football in the 90's. I liked watching guys like Kevin Greene, Troy Aikman, Daryl Johnston, and Steve Young. These guys had class and being in my teens then I didn't know anything about the caste system. When I saw a white receiver on the field I was simply amazed as if it was a miracle or something.

My perceptions sure have changed. I have seen local kids from the NJ area get screwed all the time. I am talking about kids like Ray Van Peenan and Dan Decicco who were excellent running backs. One guy from north Jersey who was treated somewhat fairly is Greg Olsen. At least he is in the NFL but he should be a wide receiver. He has 4.5 speed at his size. Lovie will find a way to screw him over anyway. The jury is still out on Joe Martinek.Edited by: whiteathlete33
 

Kaptain

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Not doubt the passion in which the game is now played doesn't compare. Teams now hug and kiss after games. It's now commonplace to see a celebration of a tackle completed with a scripted dance or a "look at me" chest beating when a team is 30 points in the 4th quarter. After the games it's sometimes hard to tell who the winners and losers are - everyone has a watermelon grin. More emotion is shown, but it's all such obviously fake emotion - in other words, not emotion at all. Edited by: Kaptain Poop
 

Borussia

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Very true. Blacks are intensely pro-black to each other most of the time. There is a feeling of comradeship that they have 'made the show'. You see this after games as they all hug and do their black handshakes. Everyone so happy to be with their brothas.

Compare that to football's direct cousin, Rugby. Mostly White Rugby players do a quick stoic gentlemanly handshake after matches. And that is it. They go their seperate ways relatively quickly. The losing team is genuinely upset. The winning team has a look of contentment and a job well done attitude. Yes, happy, but not the circus monkey show you see NFL and NBA blacks engage in.

And yes, it is common knowledge that black defenders head hunt White skill players. Not to mention the cheap shots they take under the pile.

The only white player I have heard who would give the brothas tons of crap back was Conrad Dobler.
Jim Burt as well.

Do you know that Charles Haley used to pick fights with White players (not Aikman or Young) and use anti-White slurs all the time?
He was also a nut who used to masturbate in team meetings, plane rides, etc.
 
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I understand that the NFL is not the best environment for white players, but lets not overstate things. We need to support the white players we have there, and go into sports bars and other social settings and talk up the white players who do well on the field, a little bit of "astroturfing" if you know what I mean. I don't think white players are as ostracized within their teams as some on this board assume. While on some teams you may have locker room terrorists like Terrel Owens, for the most part black athletes would stand up for their fellow white player if another black was giving them grief. I know that's not something we want to admit, but I have experienced this myself in real life. The only way it works though is if the white player has enough backbone to stand up for them self. If they are weak minded, then everyone will abandon them.

So you do have some strong personalities. Look at Jeremy Shockey. He stood up for himself in a practice earlier this pre-season, and he has "survived." I doubt he apologized or backed down from anyone. To do that would be the exact recipe for demise of a white player. Black players, heck even other white players will not stand up for someone who doesn't stand up for themselves. Another example is Wes Welker, someone who has taken a black cheap shot sportscenter highlight. He he makes a crucial 3rd down catch, and let's the 26 for the Colts know "you f**king suck!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-4KAs26g8
 

Leonardfan

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I really remember becoming aware of the caste system back in 2000. I was watching a game with my older brother, it was the Packers vs. Panthers and we were talking about the lack of white rb's. In that game I remember Brad Hoover playing, he ran for over 100 yds. From that time on I have been aware.

I do follow both college and professional football. I do not have an allegiance to any team at either level but also want white players and teams with whiter rosters to succeed.
 
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Jim Seymour was not drafted by the Bears in 1969. He was drafted by the Rams as the 10th player chosen. Seymour was then drafted by the U.S. Army and missed the 1969 season. He did not go to Vietnam as Rocky Bleier did. When Seymour got out of the army in 1970, he was traded to the Bears.

Steve Worster signed with the CFL and was busted for drugs in his first year. He was one of the numerous white football players who fell into the drug-counterculture scene in the 1970's.

Johnny Musso went to Canada for a few years before going to the Bears who had drafted him.

Ed Marinaro played 4 years for the Vikings before signing with the Jets as a free agent in 1976. Marinaro was a runner who simply had to have 20 carries a game to do anything, a trait he shared with O.J. Simpson. When a weak Jet team made him the main runner, Marinaro started racking up 100-yard games. In the middle of the 1976 season, Marinaro outgained O.J. something like 119 to 53 in a Jet-Bill game. The next week, Marinaro tore up a knee and never played again. He became an actor.

Of Worster, Musso, and Marinaro, only Ed Marinaro had the talent to be a Pro Bowl level player.

In the 1960's, you had quite a few championship teams with white running backs. In the 1970's, the Colts, Dolphins and Raiders won Super Bowls with a white RB (Bulaich, Csonka and Van Eeghen) as the main runner.
 
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Electric Slide said:
I understand that the NFL is not the best environment for white players, but lets not overstate things. We need to support the white players we have there, and go into sports bars and other social settings and talk up the white players who do well on the field, a little bit of "astroturfing" if you know what I mean. I don't think white players are as ostracized within their teams as some on this board assume. While on some teams you may have locker room terrorists like Terrel Owens, for the most part black athletes would stand up for their fellow white player if another black was giving them grief. I know that's not something we want to admit, but I have experienced this myself in real life. The only way it works though is if the white player has enough backbone to stand up for them self. If they are weak minded, then everyone will abandon them.

So you do have some strong personalities. Look at Jeremy Shockey. He stood up for himself in a practice earlier this pre-season, and he has "survived." I doubt he apologized or backed down from anyone. To do that would be the exact recipe for demise of a white player. Black players, heck even other white players will not stand up for someone who doesn't stand up for themselves. Another example is Wes Welker, someone who has taken a black cheap shot sportscenter highlight. He he makes a crucial 3rd down catch, and let's the 26 for the Colts know "you f**king suck!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-4KAs26g8
This clip is funny too. Welker goes after people.
smiley36.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdV_txH50cg&feature=related Edited by: Fightingtowin
 

bigunreal

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Sport Historian,

I disagree with you regarding the skills of a Steve Worster or a Johnny Musso. Both were dominant college running backs and neither were ever given a chance to be "the" running back in the NFL. Therefore, I don't think we can confidently declare that they didn't have all-pro talent.

The white running backs you refer to were plentiful on most teams in the NFL during the 1960s and well into the 1970s. The problem is that few of them were ever given the chance to be "the" ball carrier for their teams. Dave Osborn, Les Josephson, Tom Woodeshick, Ken Willard, Norm Bulaich, Jim Kiick, Dan Reeves, Bill Brown and many others were all fine runners and integral parts of their teams' respective offenses. Today, we've be ecstatic if any team gave any white running back the touches they received. However, all of them shared carries and none carried the ball enough to accumulate impressive statistics.

The Vikings drafted Marinaro, for instance, but made certain to make black Chuck Foreman "the" ball carrier. The Rams drafted Larry Smith, and later Jim Bertelsen, but made certain to always have blacks like Willie Ellison or Lawrence McCutcheon to give the lion's share of carries to.

Ed Podolak was a great white all-around back who, despite being impressive at everything, was never given "the" role in the Chiefs' backfield. They just weren't committed to him the way NFL teams routinely committed then, as now, to any number of black runners. Donnie Anderson was another fantastic versatile performer (he was also a solid punter during his career) who, despite being on the cusp of stardom, was never given the opportunity to have an offense built around his impressive set of skills.

Worster's drug bust seemingly ended his career. Even then, black players who ran afoul of the law were seemed to be treated more gingerly by the league. I think Duane Thomas would be a good example of this double standard.

I left out a big name in my previous post- Larry Csonka. Obviously, he joins John Riggins in the Hall of Fame caliber white RB category. However, other than those two, from about 1970 on, none of the other highly productive and extremely talented white college running backs ever got the opportunity to carry the ball enough in order to put up "star" stats. Sometimes, this was due to injury, as it still is today. However, more often than not, those white backs and receivers simply weren't given the same chance as the blacks they were competing with.

We all know how ridiculous it is to suggest that none of the thousands of great white high school and college running backs who have played since 1985 or so have been good enough to start in the NFL. It is only slightly less ludicrous to believe that just Larry Csonka and John Riggins were able to do it in the twenty years or so before that.

Also remember that Steve Largent is the only white WR in the last 25 years or so who was permitted to accumulate really impressive stats. The Caste System is growing stronger every year, and has really been obvious for the past 20 years or so. However, I believe that it has existed, to some degree, for the 45 years or so that I've been watching pro football.
 
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Oh well, here we go again. Worster and Musso were very good college runners who peaked at that level, aside from Worster's insistence on being in a drug-induced haze.

Osborn, Josephson, Woodeshick, Willard, Bulaich (frequently injured), Kiick, Reeves, and Bill Brown had plenty of carries and good stats by the standards of the era.

If you think Ed Podolak was never given "the" role in the Chiefs' backfield, you never saw the Chiefs play during 1970-73. The fans in Kansas City developed a chant, "Hi diddle diddle, it's Podolak up the middle."
 
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bigunreal said:
We all know how ridiculous it is to suggest that none of the thousands of great white high school and college running backs who have played since 1985 or so have been good enough to start in the NFL. It is only slightly less ludicrous to believe that just Larry Csonka and John Riggins were able to do it in the twenty years or so before that.

Also remember that Steve Largent is the only white WR in the last 25 years or so who was permitted to accumulate really impressive stats. The Caste System is growing stronger every year, and has really been obvious for the past 20 years or so. However, I believe that it has existed, to some degree, for the 45 years or so that I've been watching pro football.

Gentleman, I know the caste system is terrible and it's an abomination that people even conjured the thought of instituting something so rigid, but I think it behooves us to be accurate when describing situations of players. I know it's easy to say that no white RB has started since Riggins, but remember that even though it was only 4 games that Peyton Hillis did start as RB. Brian Leonard started 3 games or so, rushing over 100 in on game in 2007. Remember Brock Forsey got 2 starts for the bears a few years earlier. My point is that if we say no whites started, it seems even worse to the casual fan, then they think "well, if no whites started there has to be a good reason." I like to take the point of view that "How come Peyton Hillis and Brian Leonard were good enough to start, but the NFL doesn't think there are other whites good enough to start? They can't be the ONLY whites with NFL caliber talent, can they?"

Also regarding the WR position, I understand the frustration but we have to remember that Wes Welker is only the 8th player ever to accumulate 100 plus receptions two seasons in a row. I don't doubt that he'll have another 100 plus season this year. I consider those really impressive stats.

Bigunreal, I truly appreciate your perspective, and your knowledge of pro football and the caste system exceeds mine by a long shot. I'm not trying to be critical at all, I just have a desire to be accurate, and not overstate the problems because the great white athletes who have succeeded in the 21st century caste NFL deserve enormous credit for their accomplishments. Thanks for the knowledge you share, you certainly bring vast knowledge to the younger members like me!
 

dwid

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Does anybody know about Tommy Vardell? was he screwed over and switched to fullback immediately after he was drafted?

Someone sent me a msg about Gerhart saying "hes gonna suck like Tommy Vardell" From looking him up it doesn't say much, except he didnt get that many carries as a pro, and he had the single season rushing record before Toby broke it at Stanford.

I highly doubt the guy sucked. It does say when he went to the Lions he blocked for Barry Sanders but I was wondering if he ever got a legitimate chance to be the main runner after he was drafted?
 

bigunreal

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Sport Historian,

You sound like a modern day sports "journalist" with your bleak assessment of Worster and Musso. It's hard to understand how you can be so sure that they "peaked" at the college level, when Worster never got a chance to play and Musso was just a role player in the pros.

Ed Podolak had only one season in which he had over 200 carries (210). The other seasons which you refer to saw him get 168, 171 and 184 carries respectively. Hardly the touches a workhorse back gets. He was one of my favorite players, so I was paying close attention to how he was treated. I guess it's amazing that Hank Stram- who was one of the founding fathers of the Caste System- allowed any white RB to touch the ball that often.

If we excuse the kind of favortism that blacks often received even back then, then it's easier to justify the massive discrimination white players face now in the NFL.

dwid- Tommy Vardell defied all the odds by being drafted 9th overall in the first round by the Browns. He was shuttled in and out of the lineup and never given a chance to be the primary ballcarrier. His coach with the Browns- Bill Belicheck, who is alleged by some to be fair to white players. Vardell had a brief tenure as part time running back, before bulking up and becoming the stereotypical white blocking fullback. Edited by: bigunreal
 
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Worster was more interested in getting stoned on grass aside from not having the triangle numbers of Csonka, Bulaich, and Riggins. Is there anybody else on this Forum who thinks Johnny Musso should have been the main Bear runner over Walter Payton? People who are sympathetic to our themes upon coming to this site will consider it a joke when reading that Steve Worster would have been a star if only the NFL hadn't discriminated against him.

Lately, I have been pursuing a particular interest of mine, True Crime. I have written two internet articles (in which I placed some subtle racial realism) on the subject in recent weeks. It looks like my time can be spent more profitably in this area from now on, rather than in juvenile arguments.
 

Don Wassall

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dwid said:
Does anybody know about Tommy Vardell? was he screwed over and switched to fullback immediately after he was drafted?

Someone sent me a msg about Gerhart saying "hes gonna suck like Tommy Vardell" From looking him up it doesn't say much, except he didnt get that many carries as a pro, and he had the single season rushing record before Toby broke it at Stanford.

I highly doubt the guy sucked. It does say when he went to the Lions he blocked for Barry Sanders but I was wondering if he ever got a legitimate chance to be the main runner after he was drafted?

After carrying 99 times for 369 yards in his rookie season of 1992, Tommy Vardell was the Browns' leading rusher in '93, but just barely, edging out Eric Metcalf (since arrested several times for sexual assaults) 644 yards to 611. Vardell got better as that season went on, to the point that I remember then-announcer O. J. Simpson saying during a game that he had All Pro potential. But Vardell blew outa knee in the beginning of the '94 season and that effectively ended his career, though he served as the Lions' short yardage specialist from '96 to '98. If he hadn't been injured he likely would have been used much like Mike Alstott was with Tampa, getting a fair amount of rushes and receptions from the fullback positionbut never being the clearly featured running back.

Edited by: Don Wassall
 
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I have always blamed the AFL for the cast system. In one move the number of pro teams doubled. They seemed to be the ones with the most black players.
 

bigunreal

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Sport Historian,

Musso was drafted a few years before Payton entered the NFL (1975), but played in Canada before joining the Bears in Payton's rookie season. How convenient that when the Bears finally decided to give him a contract, they drafted a black RB the same year.

Payton, like many blacks back then, was highly touted coming out of an all black college (Jackson State). Because most schools then still had some academic requirements for their athletes, the NFL had to raid the rosters of black colleges like Grambling and Jackson State in order to start the Affirmative Action process. Obviously, they were quite successful at this, and within a few decades, the best black players would be going to the biggest schools in the country, without having to worry about meeting the entrance standards all non-athlete students have to meet.

Payton was undeniably a great running back. That being said, he played at a small school, against lesser competition. Kind of like Danny Woodhead. Unlike Woodhead, he was still a high draft pick and immediately installed as an NFL starter. Even when the Bears added Musso to their roster in Payton's rookie season, he only played in two games (6 carries). Despite Payton's lackluster numbers in his rookie season (196 carries for 679 yards, 3.5 ypc and 7 TDs), Musso was not given a chance to compete the next season. Fully healthy, this one time dynamic runner against top notch college competition (unlike Payton) was active for all 14 games, but given only 57 carries. The next season, his last, he was given only 37 carries in 14 games.

Ridiculing the notion that Musso wasn't given a real chance in the NFL (which the record undeniably shows), by insinuating I think he was better than Walter Payton is a misleading argument. Payton was given the chance that Musso (and Worster) weren't, and became one of the all time great backs because of that. If he'd been white, and played for Chadron State like Danny Woodhead, would any team then, just as now, have been committed to him? Especially after such pedestrian rookie numbers? The answer is obvious.
 

white is right

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Unreal even Zonk wasn't the Dolphins feature back. He was in a tandem with Kiick and later Morris. For a while Miami even had a three headed monster until they demoted Kiick to back up tailback. Zonk's stats were probably stunted because of the depth in Miami. Also back then teams tended to share the work more because they just ran more. With corners allowed to jam receivers at will football was more like Rugby and more of power game. Harris and Bleir both did 1k late in the 70's. The last team to have to 1k runners was Cleveland with Byner and Mack. The Cleveland backfield mirrored the Dolphins thunder and lightening of the 70's.
 

Westside

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ScreamingEagle don't blame the AFL, be more specific today. Blame the GMs and head f...ing coaches, especially the back stabbing white ones, i.e., Reid of the Eagles. Those my friend, are the major reasons for this eternal infection called Caste. Just think if a white coach put white players on the active roster based on only performance during the pre season instead of this "upside" BS, then during the regular season, the wins vs loses would play out, very simple. Lets talk of what and who is f..king and undermining white players. At the critical level its the whites, OURSELVES! God, how does this continue to play out. One thing we have to remember is free will and correct decision making. Right now for some dysfunctional reason(s) white mean are collaborating with the a soft enemy(Juden and infantile/dumb affelets(negros). So the next time we fell the frustration and semi hopelessness, let start with the traitors. Our own! God help us. Sorry for the anger, but I have read all the recent NFL threads and have downed 12 beers and pissed at those persons who have the power to right this ship, but refuse to.
 

Westside

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Ah, I had high hopes for Tommy "Touchdown" Vardell. I remember back in 92 and 93, I had hoped that he would emerge as another John Riggo type. But as Don stated he got his knee blown out in 94, probably by a terrible "affelet" and ruined his "upside", thus his career.
 

Westside

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Man, right now I need Pollyana's never ending positive vibe to carry me thrue the morning. God help me.
 

foreverfree

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Even in SB I IIRC, the Pack had a black majority starting D:

DL: Willie Davis, Lionel Aldridge
LBs: Dave Robinson
DBs: Herb Adderley, Willie Wood, Bob Jeter

As for Payton as a rookie, didn't he get most of his use that year running back kicks? Didn't Sweetness set a record for all-purpose yards that year (I was 14 and remember reading that)?

John
 
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