Super Bowl

[White Shogun]

Yawn. None of my points about fixing were answered. Here is another one. Did the NFL fix Super Bowl XXXIX so that Tom Brady's Patriots could defeat Donovan McNabb's Eagles? By the way, the coaches and teams can barely control most of the players. How do they get them to accept being told when they can win?

A few months ago, it was pointed out that there were fewer people posting. This thread is a good reason why. I think I can find better things to do myself.

There are three different views being discussed and analyzed as though they are the same:

1) There are no corrupt players and the questionable events that occur in the games are just the outcome of fallible human beings making split second decisions in a volatile, moving dynamic:

2) All NFL games are scripted with winners and losers, and everyone in the league is involved from top to bottom:

3) Some referees, coaches, or plays might be corrupted by gambling interests and work for their payoff by making calls / plays to subtly influence the outcome of the game.

These three things are not all one and the same and they shouldn't be discussed as though they are.

I accept #3 because human nature is what it is. There is enough glaring, public evidence that tells me that players have been known to attempt to throw games, and NBA refs have been widely, publicly outed for attempting to influence the outcome of games. To believe that the people who make up the NFL are exempt from corruption is naive, at best.

I do not believe #1-2 for the same reasons - human nature. I do believe that people can keep a secret (the USA conducted secret tests of nuclear bombs for years and everyone there kept their mouth shut...)but I don't think it is feasible in an organization like the NFL, and for which #3 is already a distinct possibility that such an arrangement would remain a secret for decades.

My post isn't meant as a direct reply to sports historian except for the part in bold in his reply I quoted above:

Historian, I value you the information you provide and find your posts very interesting. My question to you is how you can imply that discussing whether or not games might be fixed is a reason to leave the site, but you've never complained about entire posts discussing Jewish control of the world government and banking industries, NWO, the Illuminati, 9/11 Truth Movement, etc. Do you think a ref attempting to fix the outcome of a sporting event is more or less likely than a Jewish cabal that runs the world behind the scenes?

 

[Don Wassall]

Certain players, re Shogun's #3,may also be influenced as far as the spread and over/under by the offer of free drugs or other enticements.


Bets onthe Super Bowl were down significantly:


$81.5 million total down 11.5 percent in rough economy


Not even the Steelers, always a big draw with the betting public, can beat a sagging economy.


A total of $81.5 million was wagered in the state's sports books on Super Bowl XLIII, an 11.5 percent decrease from the game's 2008 handle, according to figures released Tuesday by the Gaming Control Board.


Roethlisberger's 6-yard touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes with 35 seconds to play pushed the Steelers past the Arizona Cardinals 27-23 on Sunday. The high drama surpassed expectations, but the wagering handle in Nevada was the lowest since 2004.


"It was not the matchup. I just think it was the economy," said Jimmy Vaccaro, director of operations for Lucky's sports books. "It's not the teams, it's the times that made this thing go down."


http://www.lvrj.com/sports/38993172.htmlEdited by: Don Wassall

 

[sport historian]

Yawn. None of my points about fixing were answered. Here is another one. Did the NFL fix Super Bowl XXXIX so that Tom Brady's Patriots could defeat Donovan McNabb's Eagles? By the way, the coaches and teams can barely control most of the players. How do they get them to accept being told when they can win?

A few months ago, it was pointed out that there were fewer people posting. This thread is a good reason why. I think I can find better things to do myself.

There are three different views being discussed and analyzed as though they are the same:

1) There are no corrupt players and the questionable events that occur in the games are just the outcome of fallible human beings making split second decisions in a volatile, moving dynamic:

2) All NFL games are scripted with winners and losers, and everyone in the league is involved from top to bottom:

3) Some referees, coaches, or plays might be corrupted by gambling interests and work for their payoff by making calls / plays to subtly influence the outcome of the game.

These three things are not all one and the same and they shouldn't be discussed as though they are.

I accept #3 because human nature is what it is. There is enough glaring, public evidence that tells me that players have been known to attempt to throw games, and NBA refs have been widely, publicly outed for attempting to influence the outcome of games. To believe that the people who make up the NFL are exempt from corruption is naive, at best.

I do not believe #1-2 for the same reasons - human nature. I do believe that people can keep a secret (the USA conducted secret tests of nuclear bombs for years and everyone there kept their mouth shut...)but I don't think it is feasible in an organization like the NFL, and for which #3 is already a distinct possibility that such an arrangement would remain a secret for decades.

My post isn't meant as a direct reply to sports historian except for the part in bold in his reply I quoted above:

Historian, I value you the information you provide and find your posts very interesting. My question to you is how you can imply that discussing whether or not games might be fixed is a reason to leave the site, but you've never complained about entire posts discussing Jewish control of the world government and banking industries, NWO, the Illuminati, 9/11 Truth Movement, etc. Do you think a ref attempting to fix the outcome of a sporting event is more or less likely than a Jewish cabal that runs the world behind the scenes?

No, I don't think a Jewish cabal runs the world behind the scenes. I recall making a post criticizing that viewpoint, but I haven't made many. I will now say that making wild claims will turn off serious people who come to this site out of curiosity and drive them away.

 

[sport historian]

I dont think race has much to do with the fixing of games, because that issue is more than "taken care of" during the offseason (combine, draft, training camp, cuts). 


Simply suggesting things like "McNabb and other black QB's should have won multiple superbowls" doesnt really make sense in this case.  Race has nothing do to with gambling, and money is the be-all and end-all in the NFL.


That being said, none of us really know if games are fixed or not, but there certainly good arguments to support both sides.  There's no need to get pissed at one another.

I didn't realize I was "pissed."  Thanks for letting me know.


When race is indeed such a factor in every other facet of the NFL, then the lack of black QBs being on a winning Super Bowl team is highly relevant if one wants to make a case that the games are fixed.  What would have been a better "script" for this season than for Donovan McNabb to get over the hump and lead his team to a victory in the Super Bowl?


Additionally, the NFL is incredibly lucrative.  Every team makes lots of money without having to fix games, and most franchises are now valued in the range of a billion dollars or so.  When an owner sells a team, he makes hundreds of millions of dollars.  The NFL is one of the most profitable businesses in the U.S.  Where is the need to commit felonies and fix games under such circumstances?  It would also entail all the owners, with their competitive, alpha male personalities, agreeing to it.  How about the coaches who work their tails off, is that all a charade?  Also, all the players, including the white ones we admire so much?


I've mentioned before that it's possible particular games may be "tweaked," through the corruption of a few individuals.  The NBA's crooked ref scandal (which was effectively swept under the rug) is evidence of that.  But the hypothesis that every game is scripted ala pro wrestling has been beaten to death every year with no new light shed to support it.  It really belongs in a Happy Hour thread at this point. 

I agree with everything Don says in the above post. An example of the Alpha Male owner was Carroll Rosenbloom who owned the Colts when they lost Super Bowl III and the Rams from 1972 until his death in 1979. Rosenbloom felt himself personally humiliated when his Colts lost that Super Bowl. NO WAY would he have gone along silently with a fix that made him a loser.

Yes, some players likely have gotten in debt with a drug dealer and gave less than their best. This, as Don says, would be a corruption of a few individuals. Again, claiming that every game plus the playoffs and Super Bowl are scripted will make people coming here see this site as a joke.

 

[Observer]

Yes, some players likely have gotten in debt with a drug dealer and gave less than their best.

My guess is that the more common practice is to offer a defensive player a reward for making a big play, such as a sack or interception, or even a per-tackle bounty. The stupid defensive player will then play his head off, while at the same time be playing out of position and thereby ruining his team's chance of winning. He probably won't even consider himself to be a cheater, but the effect is the same. In fact, he will probably get the game ball, but it will be in a losing effort.

I would guess that variants of this happen at every level. In high school, Hotshot LB makes a bet with his friends that he will make 3 sacks --- and messes up the entire defensive scheme all night.

 

[bigunreal]

I don't post frequently here about games being fixed. However, whenever I do, it does seem to stimulate discussion. I thought that was what a good forum is all about.

sport historian- you ignored all my points, which, to use your immature term, deserves a big "yawn" as well. Do you believe that all NFL coaches, general managers and owners are conspiring to keep more talented white players off the field, in favor of less talented blacks? Do you agree that EVERYONE in the mainstream media is involved with this, issuing standard Caste talk, ignoring the obvious discrimination, etc.? The vast majority of your fellow citizens, and certainly virtually all sports fans, would call such a contention ridiculous.

Assuming you believe the Caste system exists, then that puts the lie to any "it's about winning" talk. It makes a mockery of everything sports is supposed to represent. It proves that the sport is illegitimate. So, it's hypocritical of you to arrogantly dismiss my contention that the games themselves are not legitimate.

As I stated before, if I could predict which way the fix was going to go, I'd profit substantially from it. However, I've become mature enough now to realize that the "fix" is not always going to be my own personal worst nightmare. In other words, Michael Vick winning a Super Bowl, things like that. As Shogun pointed out, the fixed games don't have to revolve specifically around race. As I pointed out, the league has seen to it that things are "fixed" against white players year round, from the combine to final roster cuts, to playing time at verboten positions.

One thing you can take to the bank- no majority white team will ever be allowed to win a championship as long as the Caste system is in power. We see something like this every year in NCAA basketball, where teams with more than 1-2 white players routinely bow out during March Madness. When the final game occurs, invariably it turns out to be between either two teams with 5 black starters, or perhaps a token, insignificant white starter on one team. That just can't be happenstance, year after year. The law of averages would say that, with all the successful "white" teams in recent years (Duke, West Virginia, Notre Dame, Butler, etc.), at least one would manage to make the Final Four, if not the championship game. Duke has not been to the Final Four since they went back to recruiting more white players.

My point about Irving Fryar was completely ignored by everyone here. You had a high profile NFL player, pubicly admitting that he was paid to "throw" an NCAA college championship game. No journalist showed the least bit of interest in what should have been the story of the year, if not the decade. If the games were not fixed, why wouldn't the journalists show some curiousity about this one time aberation? Why wasn't the NCAA interested in exactly who bribed Fryar to "throw" the game? If that organization had any real integrity, it would want to investigate what happened, and ensure it didn't happen again. Obviously, they all kept their silence and showed no interest because they all know it wasn't an aberation, but an indication that there is nothing honest or upright about either the NCAA or the NFL.

If Don wishes me to stop theorizing about these games being fixed, I'll do so.

 

[DWFan]

bigunreal, do you happen to know if either Fryar or Bubba Smith gave any details as to who the force behind the fixes were?Edited by: DWFan

 

[bigunreal]

DWFan,

In Bubba Smith's case, he just voiced his long time suspicion, which he said many of his teammates shared. I believe he stated that they were all incredulous that the Colts drove down inside the Jets' 20 yard line so many times, without scoring. Without really saying so, he inferred that Earl Morrall's play was suspect. I agree with that. He never speculated on who might have been behind the fix, but then the story only made the news for a day or two, as you might predict. Since that time, Bubba Smith has pretty much disappeared.

Irving Fryar might have mentioned "alumni" behind the payments he received, but certainly didn't name any names. As I noted, not a single "journalist" was the least bit interested in investigating this story.

 

[foreverfree]

sport historian, re Rosenbloom, there is a story in The League by David Harris that CR had bet the Colts to cover the 4-point spread in the 1958 championship game, and that on the Colts' winning drive, he telephoned the sideline from what passed for an owner's box in the Yankee Stadium of that era. We know how that game ended. Hmmm....

John

 

[sport historian]

sport historian, re Rosenbloom, there is a story in The League by David Harris that CR had bet the Colts to cover the 4-point spread in the 1958 championship game, and that on the Colts' winning drive, he telephoned the sideline from what passed for an owner's box in the Yankee Stadium of that era. We know how that game ended. Hmmm....

John

You might be interested to know that a fellow named John Unitas was playing QB for the Colts on that drive. Unitas called every play and was going for the end zone. Incidentally, Unitas wasn't paying attention to Weeb Ewbank, much less the owner. On the next to last play, he threw to the tight end, who was knocked out of bounds on the one yard line. The Colt FG kicker, Steve Myhra, was not that reliable (4 of 10 in 1958), which meant that going for the TD was the logical tactical move.

One of the things I try to do is give the historical perspective. It looks like I am wasting my time here.

 

[bigunreal]

sport historian,

The problem is your "historical perspective" is very selective. Johnny Unitas also relieved Earl Morrall in Super Bowl III, and was no more effective against the ridiculous Jet defense. One quick note- one of the "stars" for the Jets in that game was DB Johnny Sample. Sample was a horrid player who couldn't even make it with the awful Washington Redskins, who had perhaps the worst defense in football then.

Btw, another bit of history for you, from the "fixed" camp. Remember Don Chandler's game winning field goal against the Colts in 1965? If you recall, there was a special "playoff" (the term they used for this game, since there was no real playoffs yet) game between the Packers and Colts to determine who would go on to play Cleveland in the championship game. Anyway, if you've seen film of that game winning field goal, you've watched the ball sail wide of the uprights, as the referee holds up his arms to indicate the kick was good. The Colts argued to no avail, but this kick gave the Packers the victory. I'm sure it was just human error by these fallible but honest fellows....

 

[DWFan]

I respect Don Wassall as both a host to me at this site, and a person that engages in honest discourse, and like you, bigunreal, I will also stop posting anything regarding fixed (?) games on here if he puts the boot down on it. Until then, does anybody know how credible this guy was? This occurred, or not, far before I started watching football.

http://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

 

[bigunreal]

I've read Moldea's book on the subject. Dan Moldea is not very credible, imho. The book presents some intriguing arguments about the supposed mob connections of players like Kenny Stabler, but ultimately shies away from anything really controversial. It also never touches on the subject of Super Bowl III, which in my view is the most obviously fixed game in the modern history of sports.

Dan Moldea also was, at one time, a fine researcher into the conspiracy to assassinate Robert F. Kennedy. He then produced a book on the subject, which actually proves conclusively that Sirhan couldn't have fired all the shots. However, in the closing chapter, he suddenly contradicts everything he's written and declares that Sirhan was the lone assassin. His reasoning- a sudden ephiphany during a visit to Sirhan in prison. His name is a joke to assassination researchers. I confronted Moldea on the Free Republic forum, when that place was actually decent (back in the late '90s), and he ignored my questions about both his books.

 

[foreverfree]

The Colt FG kicker, Steve Myhra, was not that reliable (4 of 10 in 1958), which meant that going for the TD was the logical tactical move.

One of the things I try to do is give the historical perspective. It looks like I am wasting my time here.

I didn't have time to mention the following yesterday as I was in the middle of getting dressed for work, but I broached that point spread anecdote from The League a couple of years ago on baltimoresun.com (where I use my CF handle), and the responder, like you, pointed out Myhra's FG inaccuracy. Is that stat available on pro-football-reference.com? I'll look on there tonight, energy permitting.

I can't speak for others, but sh, IFAIC you are not wasting time. This is a good discussion.

John

 

[backrow]

One of the things I try to do is give the historical perspective. It looks like I am wasting my time here.

And you're doing a great job, as i am personally always looking forward to your educative posts! You are most definitely NOT wasting your time here SH!

 

[guest301]

One of the things I try to do is give the historical perspective. It looks like I am wasting my time here.

And you're doing a great job, as i am personally always looking forward to your educative posts! You are most definitely NOT wasting your time here SH!

Ditto! This has been a pretty balanced thread so far with good arguements on both sides. You are not wasting your time.

 

[Don Wassall]

Sport Historian's knowledge and memoryare in a class oftheir own.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

If the fix is in, then how in the world did they fix the last Superbowl for Tyree to make that ridiculous catch on the game winning drive against the helmet? You just can't fix things like that. Yes there could be corrupt officials occasionally who are betting on the games trying to control the point spread to win money with wrong calls or no-calls on penalties, but there is no systematic fixing; no way!

The only fixing the NFL does is fixing the racial dynamics. The DWFs, the biased media reports and many of the fellow black skill players are all working to keep the racial dynamics of the league the same through their false perceptions or agenda. Of course the coaches and GMs have to tote the line and go with the flow to keep from being conspicuous (or worse labeled a racist) even if they do realize that the talent evaluation process isn't being done in a color-blind fashion.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Also I second the theme that sports historian is a wealth of knowledge on the NFL. Keep up the good work; I enjoy your posts!

 

[sport historian]

Thanks for the compliments. They are very much appreciated. The charge "all the games are fixed" is as big an insult to white football players as can be imagined, something I thought this site was supposed to oppose.

It would mean that men like John Unitas, Gino Marchetti, Jim Taylor, Merlin Olsen, Bob Lilly, Roger Staubach, Larry Csonka, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Wes Welker, and many more were willingly taking part in a charade. It also meant that they were taking payoffs to lose if the "fix" called for it. It is calling these men frauds and dim-witted chumps. Don also alluded to this fact in one of his posts on this thread. If it continues, this Forum will eventually become very lonely.

 

[bigunreal]

I resent the inference that my speculating about NFL games being fixed is responsible for fewer people posting on Caste Football. My posts on this subject are few and far between, and represent only a small portion of the topics discussed here.

I've been a frequent poster here for quite some time. I support Caste Football completely; if my presence here makes casual observers think this is a "crazy" place, then I'll gladly stop posting. If Don feels that way, he can let me know and I'll disappear. I want this site to succeed as much as anyone.

I've felt comfortable in posting my theories about fixed games on this forum because the members are more open-minded than casual fans. As I've noted, our theory that a Caste System exists would be scoffed at by the vast majority of people. It really seems hypocritcal to arrogantly dismiss speculation that the games themselves are rigged, when almost everyone here is posting daily about the dishonesty and corruption that permeates college and professional sports.

It's fine to disagree with my contention that games are fixed. I expect that. However, I thought I'd earned at least a degree of respect during my long presence here. Yes, I tend to believe in a lot of conspiracy theories. Most of you believe in at least one huge conspiracy; coaches, general managers and owners conspiring at the highest levels of professional sports to deny white players a fair chance and promote black players who aren't as skilled.

Sport Historian, as someone who likes to boast about your historical knowledge, please address some of the history I've mentioned here. You ignored the Irving Fryar case, as has most everyone else who's commented here. You ignored Bubba Smith's comments. You ignored my historical reference to Don Chandler's "field goal" that was a clear miss, but gave the Packers a bogus championship. Instead, you make self-righteous comments about "wasting your time" here.

We all acknowledge that professional wrestling is rigged. Many of us can at least admit that boxing matches have been fixed. How can anyone have any faith in a sport that promoted a complete fraud like Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali? Sport Historian- do you think Clay "knocked out" Liston with what even the likes of Howard Cosell termed "the invisible punch?" If Liston took a dive, what does that say about the integity of the sport of boxing? Why would you suppose that it cleaned itself up afterwards (especially considering the rest of Ali's career?)

I usually take in good stride the barbs directed at me when I theorize about games being fixed. However, I'm not feeling a whole lot of love on this thread. I'm one of the senior posters here, and I thought I had more support than that. I guess I was wrong. Maybe it's me who's wasting my time here.

 

[Bart]

I usually take in good stride the barbs directed at me when I theorize about games being fixed. However, I'm not feeling a whole lot of love on this thread. I'm one of the senior posters here, and I thought I had more support than that. I guess I was wrong. Maybe it's me who's wasting my time here.

Bigunreal, I happen tolike your posts I don't agree with everything you write andsurely you don't agree with some or most of my views. Big deal. You conduct your self better than many of us, (including myself) write very well, and make interesting points. I happen to believe there is an awful lot of funny stuff going on in the NFL and don't trust the officiating at all! No, I don't think every player or every official is dirty, but too much monkey business has gone on for me to think they are all choir boys.


We all have different opinions on various issues, and Don pretty muchallows us togo at it if we stay within the guidelines, and you abide by the rules, as far as I know. Besides, if any of us thinks the moon is made of green cheese, or has a theory that is not accepted in the main, how would that make Caste Football look bad? I mean, it's not like Don has a sticky saying the NFL is just as scripted as professional wrestling.Giving us the freedom to express our views is not the same as endorsing them. Most people realize how message boards work.

 

[Freedom]

I think sports fixing and point shaving are integral parts of the Caste System. If I remember correctly, Don talked about this on the Political Cesspool.

 

[Don Wassall]

Well, posting isn't down, and neither is traffic to the site. I have a lot of respect for both Sport Historian and bigunreal, but I do think the discussion about game fixing is not furthering the cause, at leastthe way it's unfolded in thisthread, so I'd appreciate it if we let it go for now. Let's solve the rest of the world's problems first before we go back to this one.

 

[jaxvid]

I really like both bigunreal's and sport historian's postings. They make the site interesting and both write very well. Agreement or disagreement on a particular subject shouldn't be mistaken for a larger disagreement on the major issue. As a great man once said:
"can't we all get along!"