Super Bowl: Tragedy in Arizona

[White Shogun]

The top ten in tackles for last season:

1. Patrick Willis San Francisco: 174
2. DJ Williams Denver: 141
3. Jonathan Beason Carolina: 140
4. Ernie Sims Detriot: 134
5. Nick Barnett Green Bay: 131
6. London Fletcher Washington: 128
7. DeMeco Ryans Houston: 128
8. David Harris NY Jets: 127
9. Angelo Crowell Buffalo 126
10. Brian Urlacher Chicago: 123

Since you took the time to compile this list, would you add what position they play, and what it has to do with whether or not Shawn Merriman is a great player? Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Bart]

The only thing James proved was that the debate was way over his head -- didn't have a clueas towhat we were discussing. Par for the course.

 

[Matt_Bowen_Fan]

INterestingly, only two of those LBs play in 3-4 defenses(and the 49ers still run a hybrid defense, last I heard). The majority are also middle linebackers, although certainly not all. I'd be more curious as to stats for outside 3-4 LBs.

How does Merriman compare to say, Mike Vrabel? His own teammate, Shaun Phillips? Jarrett Johnson? Greg Ellis, DeMarcus Ware? Harrison for the Steelers? The overrated Joey Porter?Edited by: Matt_Bowen_Fan

 

[reclaimsocal]

Tackles are notorious for being an unrealiable stat. It really doesn't mean much as some statiticians will award the tackle to the last guy to get up out of a pile, or to the guy that gets their second, etc.

 

[White Shogun]

Tackles are notorious for being an unrealiable stat. It really doesn't mean much as some statiticians will award the tackle to the last guy to get up out of a pile, or to the guy that gets their second, etc.

Sort of like dropped passes and interceptions that bounce off the receiver's hands go against the quarterback's stats.

 

[Don Wassall]

I'm not so sure that the compilation of tackles is unreliable. The defender primarily responsible for bringing down the ball carrier gets the tackle; the secondary tackler sometimes gets an assist. There are one or more NFL employees at each game whose sole responsibility is to track tackles, at least I assume that's how it works as defensive stats are updated almost instantaneously during games. Also, game films are reviewed when a team questions who was given a sack on a play or when other questions arise. From playing IDP fantasy football the past few years I often watch who makes the actual tackleandthe stats seemaccurate to me from my unofficial vantage point. When you focus on how a player is brought downit's pretty easy to see who the tackler is most of the time even when several defenders are in on the play. Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[reclaimsocal]

Tackles aren't an official statistic, and are therefore often varied between sources during a game. Most of the Tackle "records" and such are done using the defensive coaching staffs talley, which again can differ from team to team depending on what they believe constitutes a tackle. I listened to a really good discussion of this on the radio a few years back when they were talking about Ray Lewis' numbers and how the Ravens were notorious for handing out multiple solo tackle statistics on one play. They compared it to the turnover statistic in the NBA which is compiled by the Home Team's stat guy and routinely favors home players over road players.

 

[backrow]

Tackles are notorious for being an unrealiable stat.  It really doesn't mean much as some statiticians will award the tackle to the last guy to get up out of a pile, or to the guy that gets their second, etc. 

as long as we're talking about nfl.com tackle count, it's pretty reliable as far as i can tell. i often watched games simultanously on TV and PC and it matches. every now and again they will mess up and assign a tackle to someone else, but it's not like they are completely unreliable

 

[White Shogun]

When we're talking about how good Merriman is, we're not talking about a difference of one or two tackles anyway. We're talking about, oh, forty or fifty.

 

[Thrashen]

"When we're talking about how good Merriman is, we're not talking about a difference of one or two tackles anyway. We're talking about, oh, forty or fifty."

Exactly. Assuming all his tackle stats are correct, it's a pretty average season. "Lights Out" was almost non-existant during the playoffs and in most of the Chargers' important games.

The bottom line is, Merriman doesnt suck. However, I think what most of us are trying to say is....similar to Mike Vick, Merriman has gotten 100 times the hype a player of his abilities deserves (especially for a steroid offender).

All while the DE's who are actually showing up every game, putting up great stats, and dominating in general (Kearney, Vanden Bosch, Kampman, Allen) are labeled "high-motor," "blue-collar," and "overacheiver." Boy, for as pathetic as these guys are labeled, you'd think they were the ones sitting home during the pro-bowl (even though that game means little-to-nothing anyway).

 

[James]

The top ten in tackles for last season:

1. 
   
   <LI>Patrick Willis San Francisco: 174
   
   <LI>DJ Williams Denver: 141
   
   <LI>Jonathan Beason Carolina: 140
   
   <LI>Ernie Sims Detriot: 134
   
   <LI>Nick Barnett Green Bay: 131
   
   <LI>London Fletcher Washington: 128
   
   <LI>DeMeco Ryans Houston: 128
   
   <LI>David Harris NY Jets: 127
   
   <LI>Angelo Crowell Buffalo 126
   
   <LI>Brian Urlacher Chicago: 123</LI>

Since you took the time to compile this list, would you add what position they play, and what it has to do with whether or not Shawn Merriman is a great player?

I was simply trying to put Merriman's tackle totals for 2007 into proper context with the leaque leaders.


Different teams look to different players in different positions to make a majority of thetackles. Merriman's job with theChargers' defenseis to sack the quarterback, guard against sweeps and command a double team.


Whether Merriman is a great player or not is a matter of personal opinion. He has been a three time Pro Bowl selection and a three time All-Pro selection in his three years in the league and he did lead the NFL in sacks in 2006 and he was Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2005. If not great, he's obviousy pretty good.

 

[White Shogun]

Whether Merriman is a great player or not is a matter of personal opinion.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. Not about Merriman in particular, but rather that a player's greatness is a matter of opinion. For example, 'Joe Montana sucks! Vince Young is a better quarterback in his second year than Montana ever was!' is also an opinion. But is it true?

I accede the point that in some cases, when one is discussing a mid-level player, there is room for difference of opinion. But the greater that a player is, the less room there is for opinion, er, in my opinion that is.

At any rate, words like 'great' and 'best' and 'awesome' seem to have arbitrary definitions these days anyway.

Edited by: White Shogun

 

[white is right]

If you have a myopic view you could argue that Young is a better second year qb than Montana was. The problem with that thinking is if you know the game you know that Young won't improve to a Montana level by his 4th year in the league(If he does it will be a miracle similar to Lazarus rising from the dead..

).Edited by: white is right

 

[James]

Whether Merriman is a great player or not is a matter of personal opinion.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. Not about Merriman in particular, but rather that a player's greatness is a matter of opinion. For example, 'Joe Montana sucks! Vince Young is a better quarterback in his second year than Montana ever was!' is also an opinion. But is it true?

I accede the point that in some cases, when one is discussing a mid-level player, there is room for difference of opinion. But the greater that a player is, the less room there is for opinion, er, in my opinion that is.

At any rate, words like 'great' and 'best' and 'awesome' seem to have arbitrary definitions these days anyway.

I agree with you. No third year player should be considered "great" except perhaps as a "great " player for only being in the league for three years.

 

[Thrashen]

James, seriously, what's with your everlasting hard on for Shawn Merriman?

This stupid subject has been beat to death because you won't admit that he's done absolutely NOTHING special outside of his steroid-filled (literally) rookie season.

Sure, he gets pressure on the QB once in a while, but no more than your typical black "hybrid" LB/DE afflete the league has been hyping up for about 15 years. None of them have lasted more than 2-3 seasons without bigtime drops in production (not that any of them made too many tackles in the first place).

Also, what's with all the commercials he's in? You'd think the guy was the best DE in the league (which he'd barely in the top 20).

If Merriman were white, with his small size, he wouldnt have even been drafted....and that's a FACT.

 

[johnnyboy]

James, seriously, what's with your everlasting hard on for Shawn Merriman?

This stupid subject has been beat to death because you won't admit that he's done absolutely NOTHING special outside of his steroid-filled (literally) rookie season.

Sure, he gets pressure on the QB once in a while, but no more than your typical black "hybrid" LB/DE afflete the league has been hyping up for about 15 years. None of them have lasted more than 2-3 seasons without bigtime drops in production (not that any of them made too many tackles in the first place).

Also, what's with all the commercials he's in? You'd think the guy was the best DE in the league (which he'd barely in the top 20).

If Merriman were white, with his small size, he wouldnt have even been drafted....and that's a FACT.

yeah IF merriman was white he wouldnt get drafted. that sucks. it really does. thats the caste system. thats dumb white coaches, acting like cowards and giving the shaft to talented athletic white kids who have done nothing wrong.


its the caste system's fault. not merriman's. now i dont love merriman but i do think he's a great player that most teams would be lucky to have. yeah im a chargers fan so im biased. i'll totally admit that. but i hope u dont think he's some average, no-talent bum. he's a good player.


as far as the steroid issue is concerned... i think a good 80% of the "bluechip" h.s. athletes in the country use steroids. i also think a good 50% of the nfl uses roids or hgh or something similar. im not excusing it and im not for roids/hgh, but thats just my opinion given my experiences with friends that play ball and their teammates. black or white, juice is huge in college and highschool. it sucks but thats the way it goes.

 

[white is right]

Juice use in the NFL is higher than that. I would say it's about 90 percent. If Baseball is 50 percent according to Canseco and Rocker(admitted black sheep of the sport). If the NFL ever gets a inquiry/trial similar to baseball the real story about drugs in the league will be exposed. As for the black hybrid linebacker/ lineman teams have been trying to draft that type of player since Leroy Selmon hit the NFL way back since 76' or 77'. I don't recall much of Selmon's play as he played on poor Tampa teams that always lost and were never on tv. But LT was probably the best at run coverage of the sack machine type players. What I want to know if this type of player was created because of the rule changes in 78' or because of a scouting bias that evolved around this time as 90 percent of these players have been black.