Pavlik vs. Taylor II: The Rematch

[jaxvid]

I thought this rematch was too close to the first fight too but maybe they thought that was the best way to get big bucks for it.

Kelly does 2 things I really like, one, he blocks a sh*tload of punches, and slips a lot of them too, too many white boxers are freakin' punching bags even when they win. Another thing is his reach, it's great when the white guy has the better reach, and he really uses it well too. Oh and for a white ghost he don't cut either.

I've noticed that white boxers don't seem to cut and bleed as much as they used to. Does anybody know if there is some technology, or therapy, or something that they use?

 

[Liverlips]

Looks like Duddy or Trinidad in June for Kelly and Arthur Abraham in the fall.

 

[white is right]

I thought this rematch was too close to the first fight too but maybe they thought that was the best way to get big bucks for it.

Kelly does 2 things I really like, one, he blocks a sh*tload of punches, and slips a lot of them too, too many white boxers are freakin' punching bags even when they win. Another thing is his reach, it's great when the white guy has the better reach, and he really uses it well too. Oh and for a white ghost he don't cut either.

I've noticed that white boxers don't seem to cut and bleed as much as they used to. Does anybody know if there is some technology, or therapy, or something that they use?

I think these guys just have tighter defense. Arturo Gatti was a bleeder until the end. Wlad literally never gets touched. Also once you get scar tissue built up you open up much easier when you get punched in those spots.

 

[white is right]

I had a terrible Sentana broadcast with one camera angle I couldn't tell who was winning the fight except that Pavlik was obviously coming on late. To me Pavlik looked flat early. The best line of the fight was Miguel Diaz telling Pavlik "you're not here to be friends with this guy go out there and kill him !"

 

[Guest]

Congrats to Kelly on a well/hard earned victoy.

I had him winning the fight on 2 or 3 points. I also have to give congrats to Jermine Taylor, he fought a good fight, but lost to a better fighter. I admit I hold most blks in comtempt, but he is not one of them. He is a great person and good fighter, its just that Pavlik is better fighter. They both displayed sportsmanship throughout the fight.

I see Pavlik cashing in on Trinadad and next beating Abraham. I suspect King Aurther will be a much tougher task. I look forward to Pavlik's next fight, he appears to be a superstar in the making, sort of like Gene Tunney/ Jack Dempesy mode, wow, how refreshing. It was a great night for our warriors, but at the same time I respect Taylor as a man and fighter. Its funny, I don't blame most blks for rooting for their fighters, but at the same time don't call me a racist if I root for my fighters.

All that is left is for Calzaghe to beat down Hopkins and maybe Masakeve win! The rainbow is in site!

 

[jared]

Congrats to Pavlik, I'm impressed that he pulled it off for a second time to prove the first was no fluke.Edited by: jared

 

[aussieaussie31]

Hello fellas, I know I am gonna get some serious flak for this but I had Taylor winning the fight 7-5. I like Kelly Pavlik alot and am very happy that he got the decision but I feel like he may have gotten away with one here. In the telecast the commentators were saying that Pavlik only arrived 5 days before the fight. Now he was going way up in altitude where the air is thinner. I think that was a mistake on the part of Kelly's handlers. From the 4th on Kelly looked dangerously sluggish. He was pushing his jab, and just tossing the straight right out there with very little on it. Kelly did get a second wind in the 9th and in my opinion won the last few rounds to make it close. Anyone that knows me knows that this fight meant alot to me because I like Kelly Pavlik bigtime. However, if I am to be honest, I would have to say that in the middle rounds he looked more sluggish than I have ever seen him before.

 

[JD074]

Kudos to Pavlik!

I can't wait to see this fight next week. A KO would've been fun, but I'm glad that he a won a unanimous decision. It's good to see that he's both capable of out-boxing a skilled fighter like Taylor for twelve full rounds, and finishing strong in a 12-round fight (he's never been past nine rounds in his entire career!) And given Taylor's big lead on the judges' scorecards in the first fight, it's nice that the judges saw things our way for a change!

Pavlik utterly dominated the Punch Stats. He landed more punches in 10 of the 12 rounds, with one even round. Taylor only landed more punches in one round! I know that Punch Stats can be deceiving, they don't show which punches were more effective, but that's still very impressive. Pavlik landed 89 more punches; that's 42 more jabs and 47 more power punches. He also threw 389 more punches than Taylor!

[url]http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=compubox-jerma in-taylor-kelly-pavlik-rematch[/url]Edited by: JD074

 

[JD074]

Guys, I'm sorry for posting this after the Pavlik fight, but I have to set this guy straight.

No, BoxRec lists Williams as having an 82" reach and Quintana as having a 72" reach.

No, that's wingspan. Nobody has 82" or 72" arms!

Quintana has a 25" reach and Williams has a 25.5" reach. Didn't you see their stats before the fight? BoxRec uses the word "reach," but again, they're referring to wingspan. HBO measures their actual reach ("from the armpit to the end of the fist".)

I know you really like black boxers JD074, [snip]

Here you go again. I do not like black boxers. I'm not even complimenting a black boxer! If anything, I was complimenting Quintana, who you think is mostly white! How am I complimenting Williams? I'm saying his reach isn't as impressive as everyone thought.

and you don't want to believe a simple truth about Williams and many other black athletes, which is: they are not really more athletic than whites, [snip]

When did I say that they were?!?

it's just that many (not all) of them have proportionately longer arms and legs, giving them an advantage in running, basketball and boxing. Longer legs make it easier to cut off an opponent in the boxing ring.

You have the nerve to say that I like black boxers when you're the one saying that they have "natural advantages" in basketball, boxing, and running?? You're unbelievable.

Interestingly, I've had this same conversation with a black boxing fans on other websites and they don't deny the fact that blacks usually have longer arms and legs and that gives them an edge in certain sports.

Of course they agree! Why wouldn't they? You're complimenting black athletes! And yet you claim that I'm not sufficiently loyal to white athletes. Gimme a break.

Your insulting and aggressive arguing and your trolling my posts like this is not good for this website, JD074. Please, give it a rest. Try and understand the bigger picture.

And now you accuse me of trolling. Pathetic. I am not trolling. You are trolling by constantly questioning my loyalty to white athletes. You are the one saying that blacks have "natural advantages," not me. You are the one insulting white athletes by implying that they have disadvantages in certain sports, not me.

 

[JD074]

I don't see the problem with pointing out that blacks have advantages in boxing over whites because of their thicker skin, flatter noses, thicker skulls and longer arms. It helps dissolve the myth that the races are the same except for different paint jobs.

That's not the issue between me and JD1986. It's his hypocrisy that bothers me. He has basically questioned my loyalty to white athletes over and over and over and over again. He's accused me of liking black athletes over and over and over again. But he's the one saying that they have "natural advantages" over white athletes!! I just don't get this guy. It's like talking to a brick wall.
Edited by: JD074

 

[JD074]

Here's a pro-Taylor article:

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Sports/217053/

If this was the only description of the fight a fight fan has read, he would think that Taylor won all twelve rounds! But I guess that's expected from an Arkansas paper. I haven't seen the fight, so I can't comment on most of what was written, but I will comment on this:

Taylor landed 39 percent of his punches and broke the nose of Kelly Pavlik, who landed only 32 percent of his total punches and 34 percent of his power punches (Taylor landed 46 percent ).

He also mentions connect-percentages elsewhere in the article, but never mentions total punches landed, or total jabs or power punches landed. He was clearly cherry-picking the stats that would fit his argument. Efficiency is good, but landing more punches is a more important statistic, IMO.

 

[jaxvid]

Hello fellas, I know I am gonna get some serious flak for this but I had Taylor winning the fight 7-5. I like Kelly Pavlik alot and am very happy that he got the decision but I feel like he may have gotten away with one here. In the telecast the commentators were saying that Pavlik only arrived 5 days before the fight. Now he was going way up in altitude where the air is thinner. I think that was a mistake on the part of Kelly's handlers. From the 4th on Kelly looked dangerously sluggish. He was pushing his jab, and just tossing the straight right out there with very little on it. Kelly did get a second wind in the 9th and in my opinion won the last few rounds to make it close. Anyone that knows me knows that this fight meant alot to me because I like Kelly Pavlik bigtime. However, if I am to be honest, I would have to say that in the middle rounds he looked more sluggish than I have ever seen him before.

av

If Pavik was effected by the air what would explain his late round dominance? Taylor was hurting the last few rounds and if this would have went 15 he would've been knocked out. You should have to BEAT the champ not fight him close. If 3 modern judges thought the white guy eked one out then I think it probably wasn't close. You are probably just upset he didn't dominate or KO Taylor and so anything less seems like an upset, I felt the same way at first.

 

[jaxvid]

Here's a pro-Taylor article:

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Sports/217053/

Sour grapes, when we make complaints like this about white fighters trolls come here to denounce us. The same to the turkey that wrote that one. You see what you want in a fight.

 

[Thrashen]

Hey guys, I wonder where all the Mayweather vs. Hatton trolls are lurking?

Haha, I guess you win some, you lose some, right?

Pavlik has officially convinced me (and many others) that he's indeed the real deal. Boxing is rapidly switching into different hands...it's been a long time coming.

 

[Charles Martel]

Guys, I'm sorry for posting this after the Pavlik fight, but I have to set this guy straight.

No, BoxRec lists Williams as having an 82" reach and Quintana as having a 72" reach.

No, that's wingspan. Nobody has 82" or 72" arms!

Quintana has a 25" reach and Williams has a 25.5" reach. Didn't you see their stats before the fight? BoxRec uses the word "reach," but again, they're referring to wingspan. HBO measures their actual reach ("from the armpit to the end of the fist".)

I used to be a pro boxer, so I have some idea of what "reach" means - I've been measured for it, from fingertip to fingertip. You're making too much of one comment you heard on HBO. Here's wikipedia's definition of "reach", same as mine and BoxRec:

wikipedia on boxing reach

 

[JD074]

I used to be a pro boxer, so I have some idea of what "reach" means - I've been measured for it, from fingertip to fingertip.

This has become pointless semantics. Don't drag me down to your level!!

I'm talking about a fighter's arm length (whatever you want to call it,) not their wingspan (again, whatever you want to call it, I don't give a sh*t.) Why should the distance between a fighter's shoulders be included in a measurement of the length of one of their arms? It doesn't make any sense.

You're making too much of one comment you heard on HBO.

I guess you never watch HBO fights. It wasn't a "comment," it was a measurement. It's how HBO measures a fighter's reach. It's included in the profile of both fighters before every fight. That's not just "one comment." HBO measured the length of Quintana's arm as 25". HBO measured the length of Williams' arm as 25.5". These are the lengths of one of their arms. Do you understand?

Here's wikipedia's definition of "reach", same as mine and BoxRec:

wikipedia on boxing reach

I don't care what they call it. That's a measurement of someone's wingspan. I'm talking about the length of the fighter's arms. Do you understand?

 

[nhl411]

i think its kind off funny that some guy comes on here calling one of the longest tenured and more respected people on the site a troll who believes in black superiority

 

[Bart]

Guys, I'm sorry for posting this after the Pavlik fight, but I have to set this guy straight.

No, BoxRec lists Williams as having an 82" reach and Quintana as having a 72" reach.

No, that's wingspan. Nobody has 82" or 72" arms!

Quintana has a 25" reach and Williams has a 25.5" reach. Didn't you see their stats before the fight? BoxRec uses the word "reach," but again, they're referring to wingspan. HBO measures their actual reach ("from the armpit to the end of the fist".)

Actually, JD074, what you have termed WINGSPAN has always been what those in boxing circles referred to as - REACH.Of course,a measurement taken from the shoulder area to the end of the arm will be different as it does not include the torso. Check out this typicaltale of the tape.



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=198 align=left>
<T>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>





</TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Lewis </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Klitschko </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Record </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>40-2-1 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>32-1 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Knockouts </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>31 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>31 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Age </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>37 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>31 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Weight </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>256 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>248 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Height </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>6' 5" </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>6' 7" </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Reach </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>84 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>78 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Chest-nor. </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>44 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>46 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Chest-exp. </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>46 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>48 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Biceps </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>17 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>17 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Forearm </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>15 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>17 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Waist </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>34 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>35 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Thigh </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>26 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>23 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Calf </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>18 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>17 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Neck </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>18 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>18 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Wrist </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>8 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>7 </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=8><SPACER ="block" height="1" width="8"></TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>Fist </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>12 </TD>
<TD width=58 bgColor=#ecece4>11 </TD></TR></T></TABLE>

 

[JD074]

Actually, JD074, what you have termed WINGSPAN has always been what those in boxing circles referred to as - REACH.

Fine. I'll concede that point. Like I said, pointless semantics. Reach, when referring to wingspan, is really a misnomer, and I don't really care if it's tradition or not. Tradition can be dead wrong.

I guess we can call it "arm reach" or "arm length" instead of "reach." Whatever. Seriously, how many fighters fight with their arms extended out to their sides? What a pointless measurement! They fight with their arms extended out in front of them. Williams has broad shoulders. Big deal. His arm was measured as only 1/2" longer than Quintana. PERIOD. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Of course, a measurement taken from the shoulder area to the end of the arm will be different as it does not include the torso.

Yeah, it's a better measurement, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JD074]

i think its kind off funny that some guy comes on here calling one of the longest tenured and more respected people on the site a troll who believes in black superiority

Thanks for the kind words, although I don't know how respected I am around here, especially these days.

But you're right about one thing, I wouldn't have hung around here for over three years, paid a membership fee for the old site, and a membership fee for this site, if I was a troll who didn't support white athletes! Indeed, supporting white athletes is the only reason I'm here.

 

[jaxvid]

I've been trying to think which one is the better advantage. I guess the length of arm not including torso is what is important but still you throw a punch with your whole body so the torso length still has to be figured in.

 

[whiteCB]

Oh man I watched the fight at a friend of a friends house. There were probably about 15 of us there and not a single Taylor fan!

So when they read the scorecards at the end and Kelly won the place f*ckin erupted with enthusiasm!!! It was a great fight between the two. I definitely respect Taylor as a person and fighter but the better boxer won last night! GO PAVLIK!!! Its so great that such a depressing city such as Youngstown finally has something to hang their hats on! Northeast Ohio and every Kelly fan had a great time last night. that for sure

 

[White Shogun]

HBO measures the fighter's arm length as a better representation of actual 'reach.' As far as I know, most of the rest of the world uses the 'wingspan' to denote reach. So, in my opinion, both of the JD's are correct.

According to HBO, Quintana or whoever has a '1/2"' reach advantage in arm length, whereas others would measure the wingspan and say he (or whomever) had a 10" reach advantage. It is therefore accurate to say that the fighter in question has both a 1/2" reach advantage measured from the armpit, and a 10" reach advantage when measured fingertip to fingertip.

You're arguing about two different measurements, taken by different sources, but who use them for essentially the same purpose.

And so far as I can tell, this is a 'troll free' thread, imo.

 

[Bart]

I guess we can call it "arm reach" or "arm length" instead of "reach." Whatever. Seriously, how many fighters fight with their arms extended out to their sides? What a pointless measurement! They fight with their arms extended out in front of them.

Fighters do not throw punches with their arms perpindicular to theirclavicles. They turn their bodies at angles to minimizethemselves as targets. When Pavlik throws a left jab for example, his arm is not thrust froward atninety degrees to his chest.No, the arm is positioned well out to the side like that of an archer.Not as extreme as the wingspan posture, but fairly close.

 

[Maple Leaf]

To all matters regarding case between JD1986 vs JD1974

Gentlemen:

It seems the issue of reach has caused some consternation and strife. Please take a moment and consider my thoughts.

The measurements of reach presented on most boxing sources should not be regarded as hard facts as they are invariably inaccurate and in some cases blatantly false. In some instances no definitive reach measurement is known. One should always consider and compare many sources for reach measurements and, in the end, still regard those figures as approximations.

Before the Quintana/Williams fight I looked at the press photos of the two fighters posing in front of each other and what struck me the most was the height and reach differences between the two. Williams is taller and has longer arms than Quintana and there is no need for measurements or opinion. The actual numbers are irrelevant as the physical differences are telling enough.

Reach is simple to understand. The only measurement that matters is the length of a man's arms. Shorter arms mean shorter range and longer arms mean longer range. Longer arms are an advantage in boxing as the longer arms strike first and from further away than shorter arms. Height is an advantage as well as objects that are in contact range at shoulder level go out of range above the shoulder level. Williams' advantages in both reach and height made his losing to Quintana ever the more amusing. Wingspan -finger tip to finger tip- is a misleading measurement and not very accurate. Using wingspan, longer fingers can suggest longer reach and wider shoulders can do the same. Of course, longer fingers will not add reach nor will wider shoulders. Fingers are folded away and made into fists; wide shoulders diminish the reach of the power arm, that is, the power arm is actually further away with a wide shouldered fighter!





Edited by: Maple Leaf