White Shogun
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Anybody watching this game? Harrington has two INT, 0 TD so far, I know he'll get blasted after the game but I was curious if they were bad throws, bad routes, receiver fell down, or what.
Joey Harrington
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ocaamikedm11
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The one interception was a well thrown ball that bounce right off the receiver's hands and then intercepted and taken for a touchdown.. not Joey's fault at all.. Did not see the other INT, however.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Let's see how the announcers treat Harrington. When Vick played bad it was always the "inferior receivers." Personally, I think that Vick "WAS" hurt by having inferior receivers the last couple years. I am one of the few on this site that will even give Vick as high as a "mediocre" label.
Maybe the Falcons will sign David Ball or David Kircus to their active roster. Both those guys are better than "any" of their current receivers. Heck, even John Standeford is better than any of them. BOOO you NFL...
Maybe the Falcons will sign David Ball or David Kircus to their active roster. Both those guys are better than "any" of their current receivers. Heck, even John Standeford is better than any of them. BOOO you NFL...
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Kircus is a speed blazer who has every skill except exceptional hands. He has some all time Division two receiving records I believe for Grand Valley State.
John Standeford is good enough to be a number two WR on "about half" of NFL teams IMO. Standeford is big, runs pretty good routes and has good hands, he has some "deceptive quickness" (I feel it is appropriate to use that term in his case) but isn't all that fast. Standeford, from what I have seen of him, also isn't all that much of a physical player for his size.
Ball runs better routes, is more physical, (although smaller) is better on the jump ball, has better hands has a quicker burst, but is not quite as fast.
John Standeford is good enough to be a number two WR on "about half" of NFL teams IMO. Standeford is big, runs pretty good routes and has good hands, he has some "deceptive quickness" (I feel it is appropriate to use that term in his case) but isn't all that fast. Standeford, from what I have seen of him, also isn't all that much of a physical player for his size.
Ball runs better routes, is more physical, (although smaller) is better on the jump ball, has better hands has a quicker burst, but is not quite as fast.
White Shogun
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ToughJ.Riggins said:
No surprise there.
ToughJ.Riggins said:
Not to bug you with more questions, TJ, but I'd be interested to know for what teams you feel Standeford is unqualified as a number two? Are there any teams where you would see him as WR 1?
Quiet Speed
Mentor
Vick was hurt by drops. Although, adjusting for drops, Vick still was in the bottom five for completion percentage. That's according to this article which breaks down QB's completion percentages factoring in drops and pass distance. Neat little look at stats which also factors out spikes to stop the clock. Needless to say Peyton Manning is the gold standard, Brees looks pretty good too.
[url]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/07/23/ramblings/stat-a nalysis/5254/ [/url]
[url]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/07/23/ramblings/stat-a nalysis/5254/ [/url]
Thrashen
Hall of Famer
ToughJ.Riggins wrote:
"I am one of the few on this site that will even give Vick as high as a "mediocre" label."
You're absolutely right. Vick, as an NFL QB makes the openly gay Kordell Steward look like a Hall of Famer. Seriously, this talentless league is chock full of awful WR corps....and Vick's team was no different. The most pathetic part is, Brian Finneran, if healthy right now, would only be the #3 WR!!! Behind who? The amazingly talented Roddy White and Michael Jenkins (AKA the worst starting WR's in the NFL). Well, there is always the Chiefs and Vikings to take that title away from them as the season wares on!
ToughJ.Riggins wrote:
"John Standeford is good enough to be a number two WR on "about half" of NFL teams IMO. Standeford is big, runs pretty good routes and has good hands, he has some "deceptive quickness" (I feel it is appropriate to use that term in his case) but isn't all that fast. Standeford, from what I have seen of him, also isn't all that much of a physical player for his size."
While you are correct that John doesn't play very physical, what black WR in the NFL does? Terrel Owens, Anquan Bolden, and Reggie Wayne come to mind. John plays with about an average level of physicality.
Also, you are right when you say Standeford doesn't have world class speed. However, what black NFL WR's would you consider fast? Personally, I haven't seen too many (Steve Smith and Santana Moss). I'll admit these two are very fast (the rest of the NFL, not so much). Besides, we both know that Kevin Curtis would run right past these guys.
When you say that John couldn't start at #2 WR for half the teams in the NFL, you're wrong. What you meant was that he couldn't be a #1 WR for half the teams in the NFL, which is the truth. The sad part is, John is not even in the top 50 best white WR I've seen coming out of college (and got screwed in the pros). I guess this whole argument is stupid because it seems as though he's done in the NFL....
"I am one of the few on this site that will even give Vick as high as a "mediocre" label."
You're absolutely right. Vick, as an NFL QB makes the openly gay Kordell Steward look like a Hall of Famer. Seriously, this talentless league is chock full of awful WR corps....and Vick's team was no different. The most pathetic part is, Brian Finneran, if healthy right now, would only be the #3 WR!!! Behind who? The amazingly talented Roddy White and Michael Jenkins (AKA the worst starting WR's in the NFL). Well, there is always the Chiefs and Vikings to take that title away from them as the season wares on!
ToughJ.Riggins wrote:
"John Standeford is good enough to be a number two WR on "about half" of NFL teams IMO. Standeford is big, runs pretty good routes and has good hands, he has some "deceptive quickness" (I feel it is appropriate to use that term in his case) but isn't all that fast. Standeford, from what I have seen of him, also isn't all that much of a physical player for his size."
While you are correct that John doesn't play very physical, what black WR in the NFL does? Terrel Owens, Anquan Bolden, and Reggie Wayne come to mind. John plays with about an average level of physicality.
Also, you are right when you say Standeford doesn't have world class speed. However, what black NFL WR's would you consider fast? Personally, I haven't seen too many (Steve Smith and Santana Moss). I'll admit these two are very fast (the rest of the NFL, not so much). Besides, we both know that Kevin Curtis would run right past these guys.
When you say that John couldn't start at #2 WR for half the teams in the NFL, you're wrong. What you meant was that he couldn't be a #1 WR for half the teams in the NFL, which is the truth. The sad part is, John is not even in the top 50 best white WR I've seen coming out of college (and got screwed in the pros). I guess this whole argument is stupid because it seems as though he's done in the NFL....
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Ok White Shogun, I thought a lot about my answer to your question. Standeford would not be qualified as the number two on:
1) Colts (this one's obvious)
2) Bengals
3) Rams (I'd put him over Bruce not b/c he's better, but b/c Bruce would fit good in the slot, but not over Bennett)
4) Broncos (Stokley is better)
5) Lions (Furrey will be moved to the slot soon unfortunately, but he should still excel there, and Calvin Johnson will become a star IMO.)
6) Dolphins (Standeford is better than current starter Marty Booker, but they drafted Ginn 9th overall, he had a good career at Ohio State and is a future star IMO.)
7) Cardinals (I don't like Bolden b/c if he were white he never would have gotten a chance b/c of his lack of speed, but you can't argue w/ production)
8) Steelers (Second year player Santonio Holmes is a budding star)
9) Browns (Joe Jurevicius is a very underrated player and Braylon Edwards has loads of talent and came on strong at the end of last year showing he has recovered from a torn ACL in 2005)
10) Cowboys (this one is close, but I'd still give the edge to Terry Gleen who had over 1000 yards last year and still has some speed. However, Gleen's biggest assets are his body control and nifty moves to get open.
Not sure on:
Packers? (Greg Jennings is young and has shown flashes of brilliance)
As far as Standeford projecting as a number 1 WR; most teams have at least one better guy than Standeford. Except:
The Titans: Moulds is no good anymore, the rest of their WRs suck or were drafted in round 3 or later this year..
Minnesota: Has Bears plodding cast-off Bobby Wade as their number 1 WR apparently. The rest of their WRs are fast guys with upside that have done nothing so far. Williamson was only drafted in 2005 though, however as the 7th overall pick you think he would have shown more by now. This is why they drafted Sidney Rice this year.
The Raiders WRs Curry and Porter are pretty bad. They are good athletes, but don't seem to have any idea how to play wide receiver in the NFL
The Falcons (probably): Joe Horn has lost a step and some shiftiness, but is still a solid route runner with good hands that accelerates well. The other two goof balls Michael Jenkins and Roddy White are fast but have horrible hands and don't run routes all too well and are looking like busts.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
1) Colts (this one's obvious)
2) Bengals
3) Rams (I'd put him over Bruce not b/c he's better, but b/c Bruce would fit good in the slot, but not over Bennett)
4) Broncos (Stokley is better)
5) Lions (Furrey will be moved to the slot soon unfortunately, but he should still excel there, and Calvin Johnson will become a star IMO.)
6) Dolphins (Standeford is better than current starter Marty Booker, but they drafted Ginn 9th overall, he had a good career at Ohio State and is a future star IMO.)
7) Cardinals (I don't like Bolden b/c if he were white he never would have gotten a chance b/c of his lack of speed, but you can't argue w/ production)
8) Steelers (Second year player Santonio Holmes is a budding star)
9) Browns (Joe Jurevicius is a very underrated player and Braylon Edwards has loads of talent and came on strong at the end of last year showing he has recovered from a torn ACL in 2005)
10) Cowboys (this one is close, but I'd still give the edge to Terry Gleen who had over 1000 yards last year and still has some speed. However, Gleen's biggest assets are his body control and nifty moves to get open.
Not sure on:
Packers? (Greg Jennings is young and has shown flashes of brilliance)
As far as Standeford projecting as a number 1 WR; most teams have at least one better guy than Standeford. Except:
The Titans: Moulds is no good anymore, the rest of their WRs suck or were drafted in round 3 or later this year..
Minnesota: Has Bears plodding cast-off Bobby Wade as their number 1 WR apparently. The rest of their WRs are fast guys with upside that have done nothing so far. Williamson was only drafted in 2005 though, however as the 7th overall pick you think he would have shown more by now. This is why they drafted Sidney Rice this year.
The Raiders WRs Curry and Porter are pretty bad. They are good athletes, but don't seem to have any idea how to play wide receiver in the NFL
The Falcons (probably): Joe Horn has lost a step and some shiftiness, but is still a solid route runner with good hands that accelerates well. The other two goof balls Michael Jenkins and Roddy White are fast but have horrible hands and don't run routes all too well and are looking like busts.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
The other problem with Standeford from my research is that he is a big guy who runs good routes, but he isn't that good in traffic and not all that physical so he isn't your typical possession WR. He isn't slow (runs a 4.56) but he certainly isn't fast enough to be a burner. So basically, Standeford is a tweener. He doesn't stand out in any particular area. Half the teams in the league probably have better guys suited for the possession role. This is why I say he would only be a 2nd WR on about half of NFL teams.
Most teams now have at least one decent speed burner or at least a highly drafted young guy waiting in the wings to fill that role. A lot of teams are now going with two speed burners and one possession guy in their 3 WR sets. Busts like Mike Williams who runs a 4.56 and Dwayne Jarrett dropping to the middle of the second round this draft are escalating this speed trend.
The Colts cutting him was BS I agree, but it wasn't on the top of my gripe list. And w/ a receiving corps as good as the Colts have, he would have only been worthy of the number 4 role anyway. I agree the cut may have been done b/c the Colts already have a promising young white guy in Anthony Gonzalez and didn't want to "push the envelope" on their white wideout numbers. It was a caste move, but IMO it wasn't nearly at the top of my list of caste tragedies in the league this year!
Standeford is good, (he is probably better than 3 quarters of WRs in the league) but he's just not that good IMO. Recent purges from NFL rosters Kasper, Burgeron, Lyman, Sheldon, Kircus, Bloom, and Ball, Fairooz and Deslauriers from this year as well as many other whites who were caste victims, long before getting a sniff of the NFL, are better IMO.
It amazes me how many good white players don't even get a look. It surprises me b/c with all the white talent out there Standeford and Walter (another guy who is only a decent number two) somehow are supposed to be cream of the crop. Any white player that makes it in the NFL has to be far above and beyond his black counterparts he's competing against IMO. Somehow Walter is an exception to that rule.
I personally think that Standeford benefited from a great offense at Purdue and then had a coach who is fairer than most in Dungy. This is why he stayed in the league when better whites don't. Walter got a fair shot b/c all the other WRs other than Andre sucked. Standeford had one "absolutely brilliant" year at Purdue in 2002. He had an amazing year "for a freshman" in 2000 followed by a let down year in 2001, considering he started 11 games.
From his Bio: 2002: second on team with 75 receptions for school-record 1,307 yards (17.4 average) and school-record-tying 13 touchdowns.
>>>Pretty amazing that 75 receptions was only second on the team that year..they must have had another really good weapon in that offense.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
Most teams now have at least one decent speed burner or at least a highly drafted young guy waiting in the wings to fill that role. A lot of teams are now going with two speed burners and one possession guy in their 3 WR sets. Busts like Mike Williams who runs a 4.56 and Dwayne Jarrett dropping to the middle of the second round this draft are escalating this speed trend.
The Colts cutting him was BS I agree, but it wasn't on the top of my gripe list. And w/ a receiving corps as good as the Colts have, he would have only been worthy of the number 4 role anyway. I agree the cut may have been done b/c the Colts already have a promising young white guy in Anthony Gonzalez and didn't want to "push the envelope" on their white wideout numbers. It was a caste move, but IMO it wasn't nearly at the top of my list of caste tragedies in the league this year!
Standeford is good, (he is probably better than 3 quarters of WRs in the league) but he's just not that good IMO. Recent purges from NFL rosters Kasper, Burgeron, Lyman, Sheldon, Kircus, Bloom, and Ball, Fairooz and Deslauriers from this year as well as many other whites who were caste victims, long before getting a sniff of the NFL, are better IMO.
It amazes me how many good white players don't even get a look. It surprises me b/c with all the white talent out there Standeford and Walter (another guy who is only a decent number two) somehow are supposed to be cream of the crop. Any white player that makes it in the NFL has to be far above and beyond his black counterparts he's competing against IMO. Somehow Walter is an exception to that rule.
I personally think that Standeford benefited from a great offense at Purdue and then had a coach who is fairer than most in Dungy. This is why he stayed in the league when better whites don't. Walter got a fair shot b/c all the other WRs other than Andre sucked. Standeford had one "absolutely brilliant" year at Purdue in 2002. He had an amazing year "for a freshman" in 2000 followed by a let down year in 2001, considering he started 11 games.
From his Bio: 2002: second on team with 75 receptions for school-record 1,307 yards (17.4 average) and school-record-tying 13 touchdowns.
>>>Pretty amazing that 75 receptions was only second on the team that year..they must have had another really good weapon in that offense.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
White Shogun
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I have to hand it to you, TJ, those are two very well thought-out responses. I might not agree in every case, but you certainly put some thought into it and argued your choices very well. I won't debate you on this one anymore.
Edited by: White Shogun
Well thought out TJ, but the fact is that we will never really know how great Standeford could have been as he has resided on the bench. If Steve Smith spent his career on the bench arguements could be made that he isn't a #1 reciever either. We do know that Standeford was one of the very best when he was competing against his peers in college - the same peers that were allowed to play, start, and star in the NFL.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
I didn't mean to put Standeford down, I think he could definitely be a decent number two WR, he has skills. You're right though, we'll really never know for sure. Standeford's junior year ranks up there as an "all time great" Division 1 season, he definitely deserved a shot.
RedBeard
Newbie
OK, Harrington is officially done now that the savior Byron Leftwitch has been signed. The MSM is totally showing their bias when it comes to Harrington. Check out this gem from espn.com...
In two games, Harrington has struggled considerably.
Harrington has completed 35 of 52 passes for 399 yards with no touchdown passes and two interceptions and a passer rating of 74.1
Hell, for Vince Young that would be two career days. Yet when speaking of Leftwich, the tone of the article dramatically changes:
The deal in Atlanta could well represent a solid second chance for Leftwich to fulfill his potential.
Yes, a second chance, something guys like Tim Couch, Cade McNown, and many other high draft pick whites never got. Yet Leftwich will once again get to grace us with his presence on a football field. And poor Donavan McNabb says that they're persecuted for being a "black quarterback". F U Donavan.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3025903
In two games, Harrington has struggled considerably.
Harrington has completed 35 of 52 passes for 399 yards with no touchdown passes and two interceptions and a passer rating of 74.1
Hell, for Vince Young that would be two career days. Yet when speaking of Leftwich, the tone of the article dramatically changes:
The deal in Atlanta could well represent a solid second chance for Leftwich to fulfill his potential.
Yes, a second chance, something guys like Tim Couch, Cade McNown, and many other high draft pick whites never got. Yet Leftwich will once again get to grace us with his presence on a football field. And poor Donavan McNabb says that they're persecuted for being a "black quarterback". F U Donavan.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3025903
White Shogun
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Makes perfect sense from a business stand point. The Negro fans in Atlanta continuously sold out the Georgia Dome while Vick was the quarterback, so Blank is probably thinking he needs another black quarterback to keep Negro butts in the seats. He obviously doesn't care about 'putting the best players on the field,' as the saying goes, so why start now?
White Shogun
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RedBeard said:
Leftwich is a BIG improvement, for sure! His rating over three games last year was 71.9, and his rating for all of 2006, in which he played six games, was 79.0. I'm sure once he is under center the blame will return once again to the mediocre Falcon's wide receivers.
You know, if you think about it.. the caste media is quick to point out how much better, faster, and more athletic black men are than whites. I wonder why they can't find any of those speedy, athletic black guys to play wide receiver in the NFL, 'cause all I ever hear about is how bad the receivers are on all these teams, the Falcons, the Jags, the Eagles...
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Don't hate on Leftwich, I don't think he is a great QB, but he did post an 89 QB rating in his 3rd season before his lousy year last year. He "supposedly" had an ankle injury last year which could have affected him also. Also, it appears Boller is getting a second chance, it can work both ways. I wouldn't use Leftwich as a caste system poster boy like Gerard or Michael Vick.
Leftwich also thought highly of Matt Jones, apparently the only one in the organization that did, calling him a "deep threat." He also appeared to throw to Jones more than the other receivers on the team. I read a fantasy analysis on Matt Jones after a few games last year and Rotowire called Jones "Leftwich's favorite target" before they both got injured and demoted.
The Jaguars are the worst organization in the league. I really can't stand their team. Leftwich may not be that great, but he is better than Gerard.
Leftwich also thought highly of Matt Jones, apparently the only one in the organization that did, calling him a "deep threat." He also appeared to throw to Jones more than the other receivers on the team. I read a fantasy analysis on Matt Jones after a few games last year and Rotowire called Jones "Leftwich's favorite target" before they both got injured and demoted.
The Jaguars are the worst organization in the league. I really can't stand their team. Leftwich may not be that great, but he is better than Gerard.
White Shogun
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ToughJ.Riggins said:
I'll hate on whomever I like, thank you very much.
If Leftwich is so good, and just came off this great 3rd season, why did the Jags cut him?
Boller is getting a second chance because McNair just had five turnovers all by himself. He is so old and slow now that it will be obvious it's bias that's keeping him in, should they continue to allow him to play. McNair's slow, plodding style of running and errant throws aren't going to sell any tickets.
By the way, in two games Harrington has just 1 less TD and 1 more INT than Mr. Wonderlic [Young].
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
White Shogun said:ToughJ.Riggins said:
I'll hate on whomever I like, thank you very much.
If Leftwich is so good, and just came off this great 3rd season, why did the Jags cut him?
Leftwich's good season wasn't last year, it was two years ago when he posted a 89 QB rating. I simply think that Leftwich should still be starting in Jacksonville, not that bum Gerard. Matt Jones who got along with Leftwich is now the only scapegoat in Jacksonville.
Lance Alworth
Mentor
White Shogun said:
Do blacks even go to football games? Most of the people I see in the stands are all white.
What sucks is that Harrington actually had a really good game today but the Falcons still lost. It seems like its only a matter of time before whitey QB is replaced by the "brotha" Leftwich. They seem to be setting up Harrington to fail
TorontoArgos
Guru
What's sad is how the media is hyping Leftwich as the saviour in Atlanta! What a f**king joke! I'd take Harrington over Leftwich any day!Lance Alworth said:
Quiet Speed
Mentor
Joey Harrington played very well against the Texans, going 23-of-29 for 223 yards. He has kept the police for white quarterbacks in check for now. Not long ago there were some who were ready to make an arrest and cart him off to were ever it is they confine white quarterbacks they deem less than outstanding. I'm sure he is still under heavy surveillance by the likes of Trey Wingo and Sean Salisbury.
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DixieDestroyer
Hall of Famer
Against the Titans Sunday, Leftwitch proved (again) he can't get it done. He got drummed out of Jacksonville (although he did pass to underused, under-rated WR Matt Jones a bit more). Harrington is definitely the better QB.Edited by: DixieDestroyer