Israel/Gaza Conflict

[Alpha Male]

The Zionists brutal offensive must be that egregious; even someAmerican MSM articles are sympathizing. This racist, nation-state ideology, uses Judaism and the Jews to implement Zionism for the Zionists. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


The linked website has some articles that elucidate the history of Israeli Zionism, apartheid, and racism: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/index-j.html

 

[Charles Martel]

I was shaken by this video:

(warning - extremely graphic)

the horrors of Gaza

Clearly, the Jewish Supremacists have committed war crimes in Gaza. This is from wikipedia:

Al-Fakhura school (UNRWA)

Among the three UNRWA schools hit by Israeli forces on January 6, 2009, was the al-Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza, where at least 350 Palestinians had sought refuge from the ongoing fighting. Over 40 people were killed, when two tank shells exploded near the school, spraying shrapnel on people inside and outside the building. The UNRWA shelters, which are not constructed to withstand bombardments, are already marked and their GPS locations are provided to the IDF.

On January 6, the IDF claimed that mortars had been fired at Israeli forces from inside the school "just moments before the strike", and that the attack was in response to that. The IDF stated that a number of Hamas gunmen were inside the school (including Abu Asker and Hassan Abu Asker ) and said their bodies had been found following the attack. Hamas called the claims "baseless". On January 7, an Israeli MFA spokesperson stated that the IDF had responded to mortar shells that had been fired from "the immediate vicinity of the school." According to UN sources, on 9 January the IDF conceded that the attack was unintentional and no fire originated from the school. The IDF initially released footage of militants launching rockets from a UNRWA school that was dated to 2007, not from this incident.

Multiple UNRWA officials in Gaza said that they were absolutely certain that there was no militant activity at the school at the time preceding the attack, but did not rule out any activity from outside the school. Two residents stated that two Hamas fighters had fired mortars from near the school, while others stated that the fire came from elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ordered officials to look into taking Israel to international courts. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the incident was a "very extreme example of how Hamas operates" and that shooting out of a UN facility at Israeli soldiers is a war crime under international law. The U.N. wanted an inquiry into both the assault and the Israeli allegations about militants firing from its schools. Barack Obama broke his silence on the Gaza offensive and said the loss of life among civilians was "a source of deep concern" for him.


Zeitoun incident

According to survivors' eyewitness reports, on January 4, Israeli troops ordered about 110 Palestinians, mostly women and children (separately detaining the men), into a single building without running water or food in the Zeitoun district, only to shell the building 24 hours later, killing at least 30 people. The United Nations confirmed the reports of on January 9. According to the Red Cross, ambulances were not given permission to enter the neighborhood to retrieve the injured from the building that day, but did so a day later. Three children had later died after they were transported to hospital. After the attack, ambulances found four children clinging to their mothers' corpses for 48 hours, though Israeli soldiers were stationed nearby. The IDF stated that it had no knowledge of the incident, that its forces weren't present in the area on January 4th, and that Gaza hospitals had no knowledge of the incident. However, Norwegian doctors stationed in the Shifa Hospital, Gaza, had reported the incident to the media by Tuesday, January 5th.

The UN's OCHA said that it was "one of the gravest incidents" in the conflict, calling an investigation into the incident, but did not make any "accusations of deliberate action" at this time. United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, said that the incident displayed elements of a war crime, and called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law. According to eyewitness accounts, while rounding up the Palestinians, Israeli soldiers shot dead several civilians, including one child.

Edited by: JD1986

 

[Solomon Kane]

<H1 id=story_line>Meanwhile, noted mideast authority (and McCain campaign gimmick) "Joe the Plumber" (real name Samuel Wurzelbacher) tells us how we all ought to view the ongoing massacre.</H1>


This bozo is now a "reporter." for some neocon news agency.


==========


Joe the Plumber calls on Obama to help Israel
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ASHKELON, Israel -- Joe the Plumber called on President-elect Barack Obama on Monday to help Israel in its campaign against Hamas.


The plumber-turned-war correspondent has been unabashed in his support of Israel's two-week campaign against Hamas in the Gaza Strip and has been touring the Gaza border region and Israeli towns hit by Palestinian rocket fire.


"President Obama has already spoken about what he would do here. That if his daughters were living here he would take whatever means necessary to protect his daughters. So I just hope he carries through with it, but that is going to be up to him," said Joe, whose real name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher.
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Samuel Wurzelbacher, known as Joe the Plumber, who is in the region to report for the conservative US pjtv.com Web site, poses for pictures in a house damaged by rockets fired by Palestinian militants from inside the Gaza Strip, in the southern Israeli city of Sderot, Sunday, Jan. 11, 2009. Wurzelbacher became famous after campaigning for US republican presidential candidate John McCain during the US Presidential elections in 2008.
- Moshe Milner, Government Press Office, handout /AP Photo
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Wurzelbacher was given a model rocket as a gift from Israeli plumber Moshe Nissimpur in the southern city of Ashkelon, near Gaza.


The Ohio man, who rose to fame during the U.S. presidential campaign for asking Barack Obama about his tax plan, was in southern Israel to tell readers of the conservative pjtv.com Web site about the rockets that rain down from the neighboring Gaza Strip.


The black, red and gold rocket given to Wurzelbacher had writing on it thanking him for supporting Israel.


"For Joe the Plumber. Thank you for your support in these difficult days. From the Israeli plumber," said the writing on the slim rocket.


On Sunday, Wurzelbacher had nothing but contempt for Israel's critics and the mainstream media - who he said was not presenting the full story behind the campaign, which has left more than 870 Palestinians and 13 Israelis dead.


When Wurzelbacher joined Republican Sen. John McCain on the campaign trail, he agreed with a supporter who asked if he thought "a vote for Obama is a vote for the death of Israel."
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[Colonel_Reb]

You know, in this case all you have to do is look at the casualty count and you'll know who the aggressor is.

 

[dbwave]

Blame Hamas. Israel should be given a badge the way they deal with terrorist........they don't. Hamas are the ones hiding amongst cvilians. Israel is defending herself in a non PC way. Don't you wish we handled our affairs the same? Iraq would have been over years ago.

 

[Don Wassall]

Blame Hamas. Israel should be given a badge the way they deal with terrorist........they don't. Hamas are the ones hiding amongst cvilians. Israel is defending herself in a non PC way. Don't you wish we handled our affairs the same? Iraq would have been over years ago.

Torture, mass roundups and imprisonment of "suspects," massive infliction of civilian casualties, walling off of neighborhoods --the U.S. has followed the barbaric "Israeli way" to a T in Iraq. What more do you want, outright extermination of all Iraqis?

 

[jaxvid]

Blame Hamas. Israel should be given a badge the way they deal with terrorist........they don't. Hamas are the ones hiding amongst cvilians. Israel is defending herself in a non PC way. Don't you wish we handled our affairs the same? Iraq would have been over years ago.

Yeah I agree, I also wish we'd kick out every Israeli spy that's spied on this country, all of the Israeli special interest groups that suck our treasury dry to funnel money to Israel, and then sell weapons to both the Arabs and Israeli's. Let em have a fair fight, on their own dime.

 

[Tom Iron]

dbwave,

Sir, You've already told people here you're a Jewish man, and you've said that you don't see why you can't be proud of both Israel and America. Alright, my question to you is to which country that you say you're "proud" of are you loyal to? There is no such thing as "dual loyalty" in my book. There is only one or the other as far as loyalty goes. Which is it with you Sir? Of course, you in no way have to answer my question if you don't want to. I have no power here. I'm just one of the people posting here.

Take care Sir and have a good day.

Tom Iron...

 

[dbwave]

dbwave,

Sir, You've already told people here you're a Jewish man, and you've said that you don't see why you can't be proud of both Israel and America. Alright, my question to you is to which country that you say you're "proud" of are you loyal to? There is no such thing as "dual loyalty" in my book. There is only one or the other as far as loyalty goes. Which is it with you Sir? Of course, you in no way have to answer my question if you don't want to. I have no power here. I'm just one of the people posting here.

Take care Sir and have a good day.
Tom Iron...

Tom,


Great to hear from you again. Once again, I love America and I love Israel. We can simply agree to disagree on the dual loyalty love. I don't see harm or sense on why you can notlove both. I despise any spy no matter where his/her origin is from. America first.


Let me also say, I regret any innocent life in Gaza harmed. I am not rooting for casualties. On the contrary Hamas followers are rooting for civlilian casualities. They target suicide bombers to go to disco's, buses and cafe''s. They hand out candy and celebrate in the streets to celebrate civilian deaths.


I don't want to come off insensitive. My thoughts are that best way to deal with cold blooded terrorist is with a hammer fist.....not polically correct. War is hell and civilian casualies happen. Hamas hides and operates amongst civilians and Israel has no other choice.


We have debated this before. I am Jewish and consider myself white. I root for the white athlete and am against liberals no matter what their religion or skin colors are. There is an anti sematic contigent here, which is a shame.


DBWAVE

 

[Colonel_Reb]

One of the things I don't get is the blame anyone but Israel mentality. It seems like throughout recent history, the proponents of one sidewill always justify any actions they take and the other side will be made to look like the evil one, no matter what actions happened on either side, historically or during the conflict itself. I'm tired of it and this Gaza Strip conflict is just the latest example.


I just received this through a sociology list-serve.
Increasing numbers of courageous Israel soldiers are realizing that Israel's military actions in Gaza violate the moral principle of proportionality which has always been a part of just war theory, and are refusing military service in the current invasion and occupation of Gaza at great personal risk to themselves. As a result of Israelis military operations in Gaza, 900 Gaza Palestinians have been killed , mostly civilians with no connection to Hamas, with many more injured and much destruction of property, damage far in excess of damage done to Israel by Hamas rockets.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMs0nai4JQ

 

[dbwave]

One of the things I don't get is the blame anyone but Israel mentality. It seems like throughout recent history, the proponents of one sidewill always justify any actions they take and the other side will be made to look like the evil one, no matter what actions happened on either side, historically or during the conflict itself. I'm tired of it and this Gaza Strip conflict is just the latest example.


I just received this through a sociology list-serve.
Increasing numbers of courageous Israel soldiers are realizing that Israel's military actions in Gaza violate the moral principle of proportionality which has always been a part of just war theory, and are refusing military service in the current invasion and occupation of Gaza at great personal risk to themselves. As a result of Israelis military operations in Gaza, 900 Gaza Palestinians have been killed , mostly civilians with no connection to Hamas, with many more injured and much destruction of property, damage far in excess of damage done to Israel by Hamas rockets.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMs0nai4JQ

Israel is not perfect......no country is.


Question. How do you fight an enemy who hides and operates in amongst civilians? Does Israel have the right to defend herself? Should we not dropped the A bomb in world war 2?

 

[Colonel_Reb]

To answer your questions, dbwave:


1. You don't wipe them off the face of the earth, which is what it looks like they are trying to do.


2. Defending herself from a real threat, yes. I'm not sure that Hamas is much of a threat.


3. I don't see what this has to do with the currentissue


I'm well aware that Israel isn't perfect, althoughyou would hardly ever hear that from any "mainstream" news organizations here.

 

[dbwave]

To answer your questions, dbwave:


1. You don't wipe them off the face of the earth, which is what it looks like they are trying to do.


2. Defending herself from a real threat, yes. I'm not sure that Hamas is much of a threat.


3. I don't see what this has to do with the currentissue


I'm well aware that Israel isn't perfect, althoughyou would hardly ever hear that from any "mainstream" news organizations here.

Colonel. Thanks for the reply.


1. I don't see it as wiping them off the earth. They are fight against a terrorist organizaiton and fighting to win.They are not targeting civlians but yes there has been a TON of casualities, which is a shame. Once again, I blame Hamas for operating amongst the civlians.


2. Hamas is a threat. They have been firing rockets into Israel for years. How would we treat Mexico if they did that to us? Hamas organized suicide bombers for years as well. How would you handle suicide bombers in your malls, discos and buses?


3. Analogy. We bombed Japan twice cause massive civilan casualties.


I don't see the media favoring Israel. I have been screaming about just that for years. In my opinion it has been getting more fair, but only due to Fox News. But, I guess it is all perspective.


DBWAVEEdited by: dbwave

 

[Solomon Kane]

Israel's intelligence and techno resources are good enough to hit precise targets--look at all of the successful assassinations (or as they call them "targeted killings") mossad and shin bet have pulled off over the years.


Then there is the fact that many of these Hamas terrorists participate brazenly in parades. Why don't the Israelis pick them off then?


The Gaza neighborhoods are thoroughly infiltrated by Israeli operatives. They know who if any are participating in a rocket attack.


Why should whole neighborhoods besubstantively wiped out because 2 guys set up alauncheron a hill, fire a few ineffectual rounds, and then run away? There is no way these Arab civilianneighborhoods can control these rocket teams.


Justice is never served by killing people who had nothing to do with the crime.


Once again we are seeing the Talmudic Judaic "morality" in action. They look upon the Arabs as subhumans, as goyim ("cattle") to be dispatched by the Israeli "ubermensch". And the Israelisare using American weapons and ammo, so inevitably Arab anger will be directed at us Americans, as Ron Paul has pointed out.


Israel, you are not a friendly nation, you usethe USas the funder and enabler of your wicked Zionist schemes.


Your Crimes cry out to Heaven for Justice. One day God's wrath will descend upon you in a striking and complete manner...just as it did in 70 AD when the Romans sacked Jerusalem.


.

 

[Don Wassall]

Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. The Jewish supremacist Likud Party doesn't like them and conveniently brands them a "terrorist organization" knowing the U.S. media will parrot the same line.


If the situation were reversed, were it Jews who were third class citizens and worse in an Arab run country that passed laws codifying Arab supremacy over the Jews who lived in it and kept them in walled-off bantustans, would the elected representatives of the Jews be "terrorists" or "freedom fighters"?


As for suicide bombers, the question that's never asked in the U.S. establishment is what kind of oppression results in such hopelessness that masses of the oppressed want to eagerly end their lives just to try and take a few of their oppressors with them?

 

[dbwave]

Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. The Jewish supremacist Likud Party doesn't like them and conveniently brands them a "terrorist organization" knowing the U.S. media will parrot the same line.


If the situation were reversed, were it Jews who were third class citizens and worse in an Arab run country that passed laws codifying Arab supremacy over the Jews who lived in it and kept them in walled-off bantustans, would the elected representatives of the Jews be "terrorists" or "freedom fighters"?


As for suicide bombers, the question that's never asked in the U.S. establishment is what kind of oppression results in such hopelessness that masses of the oppressed want to eagerly end their lives just to try and take a few of their oppressors with them?

What would you call an organization that targets killing cilivians? That uses bombs loaded with nails? That sends bombers to discoteques, cafes, and buses? That fires rockets into residentatal neighborhoods? That celebrates the deaths in the streets and hands out candy?


Not terrorism?


How is blowing up teenagers at a disco fighting your oppressors? When they blew up the Dolphin disco, they found body parts 5 blocks away. Not of army or goverment official, but of teenagers. If this was happening in your country, what would you do?

 

[Don Wassall]

There is an anti sematic contigent here, which is a shame.

The inhabitants of Gaza who are currently being slaughtered are Semites; most of the European Jews who live in Israel are not. The European Jews effectively run Israel and in many ways are racist toward the native, Sephardic Jews, who are Semitic. You're really going to have to argue atbetter than a cartoonish level if you want to have a serious debate here.

 

[Don Wassall]

What would you call an organization that targets killing cilivians? That uses bombs loaded with nails? That sends bombers to discoteques, cafes, and buses? That fires rockets into residentatal neighborhoods? That celebrates the deaths in the streets and hands out candy?


Not terrorism?


How is blowing up teenagers at a disco fighting your oppressors? When they blew up the Dolphin disco, they found body parts 5 blocks away. Not of army or goverment official, but of teenagers. If this was happening in your country, what would you do?

What came first, the chicken or the egg? How was Israel founded except through terrorism -- targeting and killing civilians and politicians, except in a more effective manner.


Again, reverse the situation and what should the Palestinians do? Submission to dispossession and oppression in the land they lived in for 2,000 years is the only choice allowed them.

 

[dbwave]

There is an anti sematic contigent here, which is a shame.

The inhabitants of Gaza who are currently being slaughtered are Semites; most of the European Jews who live in Israel are not. The European Jews effectively run Israel and in many ways are racist toward the native, Sephardic Jews, who are Semitic. You're really going to have to argue atbetter than a cartoonish level if you want to have a serious debate here.

Good retort....i guess. If your going to microscope. All Jews lived in Palestine before the Roman Empire dispersed them to Europe. Yes, many Jews in Israel are European Jews. Not sure what the point is but yes you are correct. Anti Jewish sentiment if you may.

 

[dbwave]

[


[/QUOTE]


What came first, the chicken or the egg? How was Israel founded except through terrorism -- targeting and killing civilians and politicians, except in a more effective manner.


Again, reverse the situation and what should the Palestinians do? Submission to dispossession and oppression in the land they lived in for 2,000 years is the only choice allowed them.


[/QUOTE]


I sense we wont come to a mutual agreement, but I will try one more time.


So you condone suicide bombings sponsored by Hamas that target Discos, Buses and Cafes?

 

[Don Wassall]

There is an anti sematic contigent here, which is a shame.

The inhabitants of Gaza who are currently being slaughtered are Semites; most of the European Jews who live in Israel are not. The European Jews effectively run Israel and in many ways are racist toward the native, Sephardic Jews, who are Semitic. You're really going to have to argue atbetter than a cartoonish level if you want to have a serious debate here.

Good retort....i guess. If your going to microscope. All Jews lived in Palestine before the Roman Empire dispersed them to Europe. Yes, many Jews in Israel are European Jews. Not sure what the point is but yes you are correct. Anti Jewish sentiment if you may.

I'll consider that a small victory.

Yes, anti-Jewish is a far more accurate term than the meaningless "anti-Semitic." But anti-Jewish is not the same as anti-Zionist.


Are you saying you're not aware that there are Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews and that the Ashkenazi Jews are a European-Asian derived people who did not convert to Judaism until the 9th century AD?

 

[dbwave]

I'll consider that a small victory.

Yes, anti-Jewish is a far more accurate term than the meaningless "anti-Semitic." But anti-Jewish is not the same as anti-Zionist.


Are you saying you're not aware that there are Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews and that the Ashkenazi Jews are a European-Asian derived people who did not convert to Judaism until the 9th century AD?





lol. Sounds like you are better at history. You win. Edited by: dbwave

 

[Don Wassall]

[/QUOTE= Don Wassall]


What came first, the chicken or the egg? How was Israel founded except through terrorism -- targeting and killing civilians and politicians, except in a more effective manner.


Again, reverse the situation and what should the Palestinians do? Submission to dispossession and oppression in the land they lived in for 2,000 years is the only choice allowed them.

I sense we wont come to a mutual agreement, but I will try one more time.


So you condone suicide bombings sponsored by Hamas that target Discos, Buses and Cafes?


[/QUOTE]


No, I don't condone them in the least. I have sympathy for the Palestinians because, as I've stated before, it's like seeing the New England Patriots play all-out against the local peewee football team. It's hard not to sympathize with the peewee team in that case. Other than that I have no interest in Arabs and Islam and don't support or not support them any more than any other non-American, non-Europeanpeople and religion.


I know we can't come to an agreement unless you at least attempt to answer the same question I've been asking you over and over: What if Jews were in the situation the Palestinians are in now? Should the Jews just roll over, or should they fight back against vastly superior military power in whatever ways they could?

 

[dbwave]

[/QUOTE]


I know we can't come to an agreement unless you at least attempt to answer the same question I've been asking you over and over: What if Jews were in the situation the Palestinians are in now? Should the Jews just roll over, or should they fight back against vastly superior military power in whatever ways they could?


[/QUOTE]


A few level sets.


Palestians have it better with Israel, for the last 50 years, then they did with Jordan, Egypt and Syria. They can vote, they can work, they are not forced into camps and they have been given for the first time in their history their own goverment.


What would I do? I don't know. I would not support and elect a terrorist organization Hamas. Fatah had succesfully negotiated with Israel. I would not blow up innocent people. No matter how desperate I got.I can never justfy targeting innocent people. The video on this site is horrific. Can you imagine if they could catch a suicide bombing on video?


I hope I answered your question. I am done. I would rather get more fired up about the unjust treatment of Jacob Hester than this. It might be a battle I can win with you!

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Wow, looks like I started a little something here. I agree with your points Don. I was going to post about who calls who a terrorist, exposing the double standard when it comes to the behavior of Israel and their enemy of the day, as well as the history of the region, but it looks like you covered them very well.


I will just say that dbwave, if you really think that the media gives a balanced view of Israel, then you have the blinders on or really are a cheerleader for Israel and everything they do, or both. For years, it has been very difficult to find articles or news stories that criticize Israeli policy, especially anything to do with race and religion. Edited by: Colonel_Reb