Israel/Gaza Conflict

Bart

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I know we can't come to an agreement unless you at least attempt to answer the same question I've been asking you over and over: What if Jews were in the situation the Palestinians are in now? Should the Jews just roll over, or should they fight back against vastly superior military power in whatever ways they could?


[/QUOTE]


A few level sets.


Palestians have it better with Israel, for the last 50 years, then they did with Jordan, Egypt and Syria. They can vote, they can work, they are not forced into camps and they have been given for the first time in their history their own goverment.


What would I do? I don't know. I would not support and elect a terrorist organization Hamas. Fatah had succesfully negotiated with Israel. I would not blow up innocent people. No matter how desperate I got.I can never justfy targeting innocent people.


[/QUOTE]


Ha ha.This is right out of the Jew playbook. Argue, evade, distort, talk in circles, and try to BS everybody.
 

DixieDestroyer

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As said before, I have no love for either of them the Zionist state or the heathen Muhammedans. Religious Zionism is fallacious & not Biblically legitimate.

I just want the puppet pawns on "Crapitol sHill" to get out from under the thumb of AIPAC & squandering American soldier's lives & taxpayer money in the Middle East. POTUS & Congressional loyalty should be to our Constitutional Republic as 1st, 2nd & 3rd priority!

Biblical Q&A re Israel
 

Kaptain

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I haven't read all of this thread, so this info may be a repeat.

In the 6 months cease fire exactly ZERO Israelis were killed.

Throughout the 6 months Israel had Gaza under a complete siege including food and water.

On Nov. 4, while the world was distracted with Barack Obama, Israel violated the cease-fire by killing 6 Gazans. And again on Nov. 16 they killed some more. Up until that point not a single rocket was fired into Israel.

Watch the behavior of settlers, who are allowed to carry automatic weapons on Palestinian soil, and tell me who the terrorist are. These settlers are the scum of the Earth and they absolutely terrorize the Palestinian population in every way. Youtube it. What they are doing over there is shocking.

I would hope that if my people were held captive and oppressed under such conditions that they would fight back much harder than what the rather docile simple Palestinians populataion is doing right now. I got a feeling we may be in a similar circumstance sometime in my life.
 

dbwave

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Kaptain Poop said:
I haven't read all of this thread, so this info may be a repeat.

In the 6 months cease fire exactly ZERO Israelis were killed.

Throughout the 6 months Israel had Gaza under a complete siege including food and water.

On Nov. 4, while the world was distracted with Barack Obama, Israel violated the cease-fire by killing 6 Gazans. And again on Nov. 16 they killed some more. Up until that point not a single rocket was fired into Israel.

Watch the behavior of settlers, who are allowed to carry automatic weapons on Palestinian soil, and tell me who the terrorist are. These settlers are the scum of the Earth and they absolutely terrorize the Palestinian population in every way. Youtube it. What they are doing over there is shocking.

I would hope that if my people were held captive and oppressed under such conditions that they would fight back much harder than what the rather docile simple Palestinians populataion is doing right now. I got a feeling we may be in a similar circumstance sometime in my life.


It might make it seem different, but Hamas was firing rockets into civilian areas. Hamas broke the cease fire agreement. Israel does not occupy Gaza. They left in 2005. If rockets were being fired every day into my town, I would expect my goverment to protect me.


I amost threw up when I read docile simple Palestinians. Suicide bombs, rockets into civilian areas, the masacre of Israeli Olympic althletes, celebrations over suicide bombs killing innocents, hijaking airlines and killing hostages, and the long list goes on.


You might not agree with Israel's military tactics, but to call terrorist docile? Do you remeber this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_Ramallah
 

Bart

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dbwave said:
Colonel_Reb said:
To answer your questions, dbwave:


1. You don't wipe them off the face of the earth, which is what it looks like they are trying to do.


2. Defending herself from a real threat, yes. I'm not sure that Hamas is much of a threat.


3. I don't see what this has to do with the currentissue


I'm well aware that Israel isn't perfect, althoughyou would hardly ever hear that from any "mainstream" news organizations here.


dbwave said:
Colonel. Thanks for the reply.


I don't see it as wiping them off the earth.


Bart: No?What is it then, population control?


dbwave said:
They are fight against a terrorist organizaiton and fighting to win.


Bart:Interesting how the inhabitants of the land are called terrorists. Most unbiased observers would call them freedom fighters.Think about it. Ifthe USA was invaded by a foreign regime trying to displace us from our possessions, and murdering us for fighting back, would we be the terrorists? You have it backwards.


dbwave said:
They are not targeting civlians but yes there has been a TON of casualities, which is a shame. Once again, I blame Hamas for operating amongst the civlians.


Bart:They are targeting everything in their sight. It is not possible to kill as many civilians and children as they did without trying. Yeah sure,there is always a Hamas terrorist under every bed in the hospital, and nurseries.


dbwave said:
Hamas is a threat. They have been firing rockets into Israel for years. How would we treat Mexico if they did that to us? Hamas organized suicide bombers for years as well. How would you handle suicide bombers in your malls, discos and buses?


Bart:How would we treatMexico? Well, if WE invaded Mexico, displaced it's population and tried to kll the remainder, I suppose it would be understandable if they they fired rockets, and did what they could to fight back.


dbwave said:
Analogy. We bombed Japan twice cause massive civilan casualties.


Bart:Yes, we did, and many believe it was not necessary, but that is beside the point. Unlike the Israeli's we did not continue to destroy the Japanese and steal their homeland out from under them. Wethen helped rebuild and transform Japan into a modern nation, and have been very friendly since then.


dbwave said:
I don't see the media favoring Israel.


Bart:Our media has been very quiet. Many other countries are covering the situation and condemning Israel for war crimes and genocide.Edited by: Bart
 
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Israel owns the Anglo world. The Anglo Saxon world has been smashing the enemies of the Jews for a long long time now. Of course the U.S. will not condemn Israel.



Obama appointed a radical Jewish Supremacist as his Chief of staff. Arguably the number two (the number 1 unelected position for sure) position in the country is set to be held by a man who served in the Army of a foreign nation. I see something fundamentally wrong with that. There is not a soul on this planet that is gonna convince me that a veteran of a foreign army (veteran of a foreign military by his own choice as he was a American citizen as well but elected to serve in the Israeli army, Wikipedia left that part out of his bio) is gonna be impartial in any way toward middle eastern affairs.


In all likelihood I see Obama actually being more aggressive with the Muslim world than George the II.
From what I can tell Obama has surrounded himself with people who will side with Israel regardless of the cost to the United States. Hillary "I will obliterate Iran" Clinton, and Emanuel are sure to pull some strings. I only hope the Empire bankrupts itself economically before they commit more senseless violence in the world.


And to the few posters who have said "Israel must remain strong to defend American interest from it's enemies in the region".
I say this. Before the U.S. gave the Jewish nation the weapons, and the money to do as they pleased THE U.S. HAD NO ENEMIES IN THE ARAB WORLD.
 

Kaptain

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dbwave said:
Kaptain Poop said:
I haven't read all of this thread, so this info may be a repeat. In the 6 months cease fire exactly ZERO Israelis were killed. Throughout the 6 months Israel had Gaza under a complete siege including food and water. On Nov. 4, while the world was distracted with Barack Obama, Israel violated the cease-fire by killing 6 Gazans. And again on Nov. 16 they killed some more. Up until that point not a single rocket was fired into Israel. Watch the behavior of settlers, who are allowed to carry automatic weapons on Palestinian soil, and tell me who the terrorist are. These settlers are the scum of the Earth and they absolutely terrorize the Palestinian population in every way. Youtube it. What they are doing over there is shocking. I would hope that if my people were held captive and oppressed under such conditions that they would fight back much harder than what the rather docile simple Palestinians populataion is doing right now. I got a feeling we may be in a similar circumstance sometime in my life.


It might make it seem different, but Hamas was firing rockets into civilian areas. Hamas broke the cease fire agreement. Israel does not occupy Gaza. They left in 2005. If rockets were being fired every day into my town, I would expect my goverment to protect me.


I amost threw up when I read docile simple Palestinians. Suicide bombs, rockets into civilian areas, the masacre of Israeli Olympic althletes, celebrations over suicide bombs killing innocents, hijaking airlines and killing hostages, and the long list goes on.


You might not agree with Israel's military tactics, but to call terrorist docile? Do you remeber this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_Ramallah

And yet you failed to address that facts that I posted about who broke the cease-fire. Instead you decided to just parrot tired old lines. Join the discussion and answer the questions or take your Zionism elswhere.

The death toll is over 200 palestinians to one Israeli (not just now - it always has been)and yet you go back and bring up Olympic athletes of 1972?

Bombing schools is not terrorism? sieging an entire population is not terroism? Illegally occupying land and kicking off the residents is not terrorism? Walking around another persons land with fully automatic weapons like the illegal settlers have is not terrorism?

Which population lives in fear (terror) - the illegal Israeli settlers or the Palestinians?

Find me just one youtube clip of Palestinians assaulting israeli settlers. It's kind of like trying to find a case of white men gang-beating or raping a black. They don't exist, because they don't happen.
 
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I am with DixieDestroyer here. Both Hamas and Israel commit what can be considered terrorist acts. You can argue numbers all you want, the but tacticts employed by both of these groups are dispicable. Israeli bombs somehow wind up hitting schools, wedding receptions, Christian churches, and even U.S. warships. Just as bad is Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up busses, cafes, and taking hostages. I know one time a Zionist went into a mosque during their service and kept shooting with an AK-47 until he ran out of bullets and was finally beaten to death. Then there's the Muslim woman who made it past Israeli soldiers, because they were naive to not check women as closely as men, and blew up a crowded market.

I am 100% in favor of exposing the lies of Israel and Zionism both there and in the U.S. and other countries, and the influence of Zionism in our schools, media, etc. Unfortunately some feel compelled to support a Third-World "nation" that does teach kids that the ultimate goal in life is to kill infidels (Jew, Christian, or otherwise) in the name of "allah." We can support Palestinians all we want, but if one of us were to venture there, being a white American with Christian beliefs, I'm sure some of them would still not hesitate to kill in the name of allah. It's just like that white girl who was in New Orleans supporting Obama who was murdered by some black thug in the neighborhood, the one's that she was looking after.

It just doesn't make sense to support either of these groups that fundamentally hates who we are, whether or not U.S. supports Israel. That being said, I don't think the U.S. should support Israel like DixieDestroyer said. Unfortunately the U.S. is now stuck in a position that if we completely abandon them, they may shoot some ICBMs at Iran, which would cause the whole Arab world to Jihad against "The West," because they hate the West and Christians anyway, so that would be their perfect opportunity.

The most practicle thing is probably to slowly decrease support for Israel, but still pay them and the Arabs some money (the carrot) to ensure peace. We should broker some deal for Israel to get rid of their WMDs, and then that's when we pull out for good and leave all parties over there to handle their own mess.

Does anyone else think this could be a viable solution in the best interest of American security?
 

Don Wassall

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The real issue is that a once free country is now a colony of Israel.


The Humiliation of America


By Paul Craig Roberts

January 14, 2009 "
Information Clearinghouse" -- - "Early Friday morning the secretary of state was considering bringing the cease-fire resolution to a UNSC vote and we didn't want her to vote for it."Olmert said. "I said 'get President Bush on the phone.' They tried and told me he was in the middle of a lecture in Philadelphia. I said 'I'm not interested, I need to speak to him now.' He got down from the podium, went out and took the phone call."

"Let me see if I understand this," wrote a friend in response to news reports that Israeli Prime Minister Olmert ordered President Bush from the podium where he was giving a speech to receive Israel's instructions about how the United States had to vote on the UN resolution. "On September 11th, President Bush is interrupted while reading a story to school children and told the World Trade Center had been hit--and he went on reading. Now, Olmert calls about a UN resolution when Bush is giving a speech and Bush leaves the stage to take the call. There exists no greater example of a master-servant relationship."

Olmert gloated as he told Israelis how he had shamed US Secretary of State Condi Rice by preventing the American Secretary of State from supporting a resolution that she had helped to craft. Olmert proudly related how he had interrupted President Bush's speech in order to give Bush his marching orders on the UN vote.

Israeli politicians have been bragging for decades about the control they exercise over the US government. In his final press conference, President Bush, deluded to the very end, said that the whole world respects America. In fact, when the world looks at America, what it sees is an Israeli colony.

Responding to mounting reports from the Red Cross and human rights organizations of Israel's massive war crimes in Gaza, the United Nations Human Rights Council voted 33-1 on January 12 to condemn Israel for grave offenses against human rights.

On January 13, the London Times reported that Israelis have gathered on a hillside overlooking Gaza to enjoy the slaughter of Palestinians in what the Times calls "the ultimate spectator sport."

It is American supplied F-16 fighter jets, helicopter gunships, missiles, and bombs that are destroying the civilian infrastructure of Gaza and murdering the Palestinians who have been packed into the tiny strip of land. What is happening to the Palestinians herded into the Gaza Ghetto is happening because of American money and weapons. It is just as much an attack by the United States as an attack by Israel. The US government is complicit in the war crimes.

Yet in his farewell press conference on January 12, Bush said that the world respects America for its compassion.

The compassion of bombing a UN school for girls?

The compassion of herding 100 Palestinians into one house and then shelling it?

The compassion of bombing hospitals and mosques?

The compassion of depriving 1.5 million Palestinians of food, medicine, and energy?

The compassion of violently overthrowing the democratically elected Hamas government?

The compassion of blowing up the infrastructure of one of the poorest and most deprived people on earth?

The compassion of abstaining from a Security Council vote condemning these actions?

And this is a repeat of what the Israelis and Americans did to Lebanon in 2006, what the Americans did to Iraqis for six years and are continuing to do to Afghans after seven years. And still hope to do to the Iranians and Syrians.


In 2002 I designated George W. Bush "the White House Moron." If there ever was any doubt about this designation, Bush's final press conference dispelled it.

Bush talked about connecting the dots, but Bush has failed to connect any dots for eight solid years. "Our" president was a puppet for a cabal led by Dick Cheney and a handful of Jewish neoconservatives, who took control of the Pentagon, the State Department, the National Security Council, the CIA, and "Homeland Security." From these power positions, the neocon cabal used lies and deception to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, pointless wars that have cost Americans $3 trillion, while millions of Americans lose their jobs, their pensions, and their access to health care.

"These obviously very difficult economic times," Bush said in his press conference, "started before my presidency."

Bush has plenty of liberal company in failing to connect a $3 trillion dollar war with hard times. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities blames Bush's tax cut, not the wars, for "the fiscal deterioration."

Bush told the White House Press Corps, a useless collection of non-journalists, that the two mistakes of his invasion of Iraq were: (1) Putting up the "mission accomplished" banner on the aircraft carrier, which, he said, "sent the wrong message," and (2) the absence of the alleged weapons of mass destruction that he used to justify the invasion.

Although Bush now admits that there were not any such weapons in Iraq, Bush said that the invasion was still the right thing to do.

The deaths of 1.25 million Iraqis, the displacement of 4 million Iraqis, and the destruction of a country's infrastructure and economy are merely the collateral damage associated with "bringing freedom and democracy" to the Middle East.

Unless George W. Bush is the best actor in human history, he truly believes what he told the White House Press Corps.

What Bush did not explain is how America is respected when its people put a moron in charge for eight years.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21755.htm
Edited by: Don Wassall
 

Colonel_Reb

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Wow, thanks for posting the article Don. Roberts is really good.
 

devans

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DBwave your view of what is happening in Gaza is so far away from reality it make me think you are either a plant (perhaps from the World Union of Jewish Students) or have been totally brainwashed by the media.
Consider this. Since the Israelis started pounding the tiny Gaza strip 13 Israeli citizens have died, TEN of these have been soldiers,
During this time about a thousand Palestinians have died. 318 of these were children.
Who is targeting their weapons more effectively?
Who are killing the higher proportion of civilians, women and children?
 

white is right

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Kaptain Poop said:
dbwave said:
Kaptain Poop said:
I haven't read all of this thread, so this info may be a repeat. In the 6 months cease fire exactly ZERO Israelis were killed. Throughout the 6 months Israel had Gaza under a complete siege including food and water. On Nov. 4, while the world was distracted with Barack Obama, Israel violated the cease-fire by killing 6 Gazans. And again on Nov. 16 they killed some more. Up until that point not a single rocket was fired into Israel. Watch the behavior of settlers, who are allowed to carry automatic weapons on Palestinian soil, and tell me who the terrorist are. These settlers are the scum of the Earth and they absolutely terrorize the Palestinian population in every way. Youtube it. What they are doing over there is shocking. I would hope that if my people were held captive and oppressed under such conditions that they would fight back much harder than what the rather docile simple Palestinians populataion is doing right now. I got a feeling we may be in a similar circumstance sometime in my life.


It might make it seem different, but Hamas was firing rockets into civilian areas. Hamas broke the cease fire agreement. Israel does not occupy Gaza. They left in 2005. If rockets were being fired every day into my town, I would expect my goverment to protect me.


I amost threw up when I read docile simple Palestinians. Suicide bombs, rockets into civilian areas, the masacre of Israeli Olympic althletes, celebrations over suicide bombs killing innocents, hijaking airlines and killing hostages, and the long list goes on.


You might not agree with Israel's military tactics, but to call terrorist docile? Do you remeber this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_Ramallah

And yet you failed to address that facts that I posted about who broke the cease-fire. Instead you decided to just parrot tired old lines. Join the discussion and answer the questions or take your Zionism elswhere.

The death toll is over 200 palestinians to one Israeli (not just now - it always has been)and yet you go back and bring up Olympic athletes of 1972?

Bombing schools is not terrorism? sieging an entire population is not terroism? Illegally occupying land and kicking off the residents is not terrorism? Walking around another persons land with fully automatic weapons like the illegal settlers have is not terrorism?

Which population lives in fear (terror) - the illegal Israeli settlers or the Palestinians?

Find me just one youtube clip of Palestinians assaulting israeli settlers. It's kind of like trying to find a case of white men gang-beating or raping a black. They don't exist, because they don't happen.
If a settler or soldier gets caught by a Palestinian mob he will be hung and strung up(I don't blame the Palestinians they are treated as bad as the Jews pre- final solution). Incidents like this are very rare because of the way towns are gerrymandered and settlers are never far from a unit of well armed soldiers. The infamous scene where a mob killed two Israeli soldiers who were ironically protected by the Palestinian police because they lost their way in the hodge podge of towns and settlements is an example of this. I regard the Palestinians as similar to the Warsaw Ghetto Jews. The way Israel has carved up Gaza and the West Bank is also similar to what South Africa did to the Black homelands. The world condemned the Apartheid regime, yet the Western world sits on its hands when Israel does the same thing.
 

Kaptain

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One youtube clip. Just one that shows the Palestinians mistreating Jews. I want to see how these terrible Palestinians act. Youtube is littered with clips of Jews (civilians) having their way with frightened Palestinians.
 
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If the Roberts article is true, I'm impressed! Olmert is the weakest leader that Isreal ever had. But all he has to do is click his fingers and America does his bidding. Maybe the jews do run the world. They can have it. Then again, GWB is the weakest leader in the world. Anyone can push him around.

HAMAS wanted to boycott the election. Condi Rice insisted that they be included. They won and this game them legitemacy they never had before. Rice is even dumber than GWB.

When Rahm Emmanuel was first running for congress, there was a rumor that he was an Isreali paratrooper. This has been proven wrong. A shame, I would have voted for him. He is not the type to go where the bullets are flying, otherwise he would be there right now.
I have also been upset at all the strong young men at the pro-Hamas marches around the world. Why aren't you on the Gaza strip fighting if you care so much about them? I know, you might get hurt.
Moslems, who believe that if they are killed by infidels, will spend eternity with 71 virgins and unlimited booze seem to be afraid to get killed. Maybe, they know that Islam is a lie.
 
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Screaming Eagle said "
When Rahm Emmanuel was first running for congress, there was a rumor that he was an Isreali paratrooper."

Actually, Rahm Emanuel was a mechanic in the Israeli army during the Persian Gulf war. That is truth my friend.
 
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Rahm doing manual labor?
smiley36.gif
 

Kaptain

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If you side with Hamas you must fight or you're a coward? But if you fight you're a terrorist?

Jews, who believe they are the chosen people and will ascend directly to heaven no matter what they do on Earth. There they can re-rape a thousand gentile women and their God will applaud them.

Jews and neocons: ready to talk tough and fight to the last drop of someone else's blood!

Screaming eagle, I think everyone on this board recognizes that the "71 virgin" line as propaganda meant to dehumanize a group of people. Why don't you just go ahead and call them "goyim" and cut to the chase.
 

devans

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aussieaussie31 said:
Screaming Eagle said "

When Rahm Emmanuel was first running for congress, there was a rumor that he was an Isreali paratrooper."



Actually, Rahm Emanuel was a mechanic in the Israeli army during the Persian Gulf war. That is truth my friend.

Where was the Israeli Army in the Persian gulf war?
Answer: In Israel. About 500 miles from the gulf.
I don't know who this Rahm Emanuel is, but I know the Israeli army were not invited to either gulf war.
 
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Devans:
You are not getting the joke. Rahm Emmanuel is the former Illinois congressman who is now BHO's Chief of Staff. His connections to the Isreali army is vague and uncertain. Actually, he looks like the type who would avoid any military service. Besides it would interfere with his Ballet career.
Since you are outside of North American, you would not be familiar with this.
 

devans

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Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining things to me.
 

Van_Slyke_CF

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Israel is a sovereign state that conducts its own foreign policy without undue influence, let alone outright control, by the U.S. government.

Israel most certainly didn't need the approval of the Bush administration before initiating hostilities against the Palestinians in Gaza last month.

The fact that the Israeli invasion conveniently took place with a few weeks left in the term of lame-duck George W. Bush, and at a time when most of the world's attention was diverted to global economic woes and the Obama Circus, was mere happenstance, no more so than the news that the Israeli offensive was magically called off, and a truce declared, just prior to Obama's inauguration.

All of this is simply a coincidence, of course.
 

devans

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The Disasters Emergency Committee is an umbrella group comprising thirteen <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region> charities, including Oxfam, British Red Cross, Christian Aid and Save the Children. It allows charities to coordinate their efforts for major disaster like the Indian Ocean Tsunami, <st1:place w:st="on">Darfur</st1:place>, major earthquakes etc. For forty three years DEC joint appeals have been aired for free by all the major broadcasters in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.K.</st1:place></st1:country-region> - until now.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
The BBC and Sky have refused to air an appeal for the people in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gaza</st1:place></st1:City>. Not sure why Sky are refusing, but the BBC are saying it would threaten their reputation for impartiality. They have never worried about offending one side in a conflict before, such as in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">Congo</st1:country-region>, Kosovo, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Sudan</st1:country-region>, and even in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Vietnam</st1:country-region> when appeals for aid were broadcast on the BBC before the fall of <st1:place w:st="on">Saigon</st1:place>. They even broadcast the DEC appeal for <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Burma</st1:country-region></st1:place>, one of the most oppressive regimes in the world, after the cyclone in 2008. And before someone else posts it - yes the richer Arab states should be sending aid. But that's not the point.
Even the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region> government has stated that the BBC should broadcast the appeal, but the BBC is (rightly) independent and makes its own decisions. I have a lot of respect for the BBC and their reporting but I think they have caved in to the Israeli lobby who are forever accusing them of an anti-israeli bias. The accusation that the BBC is biased is laughable by the way. They strive to show some damage to <st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region> whenever showing the recent carnage in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gaza</st1:place></st1:City>. It can be difficult because Hamas rocket are so ineffective, but they can usually find some hole in an olive grove or damaged parked car to broadcast.
So sorry Gazans, we can't send you any water, blankets, or tents because that would imply a criticism of the nation that just rode in to town, blew up your little prison camp and killed 1,300 of you. Got to stay impartial.
 

Jimmy Chitwood

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again, i admit to my lack of knowledge surrounding the truth and history of this persistently volatile issue. however, here is a well-reasoned opinion piece by ol' Fred Reed that makes a lot of sense to me:

No Happy Ending
by Fred Reed

The practical question regarding Israel's recent invasion of Gaza is not "Who is right?" but "Can Israel last?"

As I write, Israel is using a military designed to fight hostile countries to fight a hostile population. In the modern world, this has seldom worked. To defeat a country you destroy its military and capture its territory. But Gaza has little military to destroy, no tanks or aircraft, and Israel already owns its territory. The IDF can invade but, afterward, the population will still be there, and still be hostile. Stabbing jello doesn't buy you much.

Israel remains a small state in a region that intensely doesn't want it. The rights and wrongs change nothing. Again and again, Israel lashes out, lashes out, against enemies that can be defeated but never decisively. And so the bombs fall on Gaza, on Syria, on Beirut, perhaps on Iran. Each war guarantees the next: 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 2006, 2009, world without end.

Israel today is not the country once dreamed, in which Heidelberg professors escaped from Europe would work the soil with their hands on kibbutzim and play chess and the violin at night. It looks more like what the professors fled. Brutal conflicts breed brutal people. Atrocities engender counter-atrocities, extremists come to the fore, and military solutions seem the only solutions.

Where is this going? How long can it continue? Another fifty years? A hundred? Say I, either the country finds peace with its neighbors or it goes the way of the Crusader Kingdom. We can stipulate that the Israelis are the world's best people, or the worst. It doesn't matter. You can die in the right as easily as in the wrong.

The Israelis appear to be trapping themselves in their own policies. They continue their annexation of the West Bank. The settlements are now so numerous and so populous that dismantling them is probably politically impossible for any Israeli government, which rules out a two-state solution. To control a large hostile population, you need harsh methods, which keep the population hostile. Arabs outbreed the Israelis, so that a proportionately declining number of Israelis rule a slowly rising tide of Arabs. Think: South Africa. How is this going to work? For how long?

Israel also has a large internal minority of Arabs. These also outbreed the Jews. If this continues and the internal Arabs can vote, Israel will one day become an Islamic state. Sooner or later, the question will be: Democratic, or Jewish?

America killed its indigenous population, the Spanish married theirs, but Israel can do neither. Now what?

Since Israelis do not yearn to get in touch with their inner Moslem, the choices will be disenfranchisement or ethnic cleansing. Disenfranchisement would, again, leave a diminishing proportion of Jews ruling more and more Moslems. Think: Alabama in 1930.

Disenfranchisement apparently is starting. Israel just banned its Arab parties from voting in the upcoming elections, and then the courts unbanned them.

Ethnic cleansing? Rounding up a large minority and expelling it would require horrendous brutality. This is the least moral but perhaps most practical solution. It is barely possible that Congress would balk but, I suspect, not until it was too late to matter. If Israel nuked Chicago, Congress would approve.

The long-term indicators point downward. Israel's military position is not as good as one might think. It has, or had when I last covered such things, a splendid air force, a good militia army, nuclear weapons, and inferior enemies. None of these is particularly useful against angry populations.

It seems probable that Islamic countries will eventually have nuclear weapons. The danger is not that a Moslem country would spontaneously launch them against Israel, as this would constitute national suicide. But you don't have to use nuclear weapons for them to be effective.

Today, the Bomb is Israel's trump card. If, say, Syria attacked and (improbably) began to win, its cities would turn to green glass, and Damascus knows it. Thus Israel is in exactly zero danger of conventional defeat. But if Arab countries had nuclear weapons, the trump card would lose its value. You have to be very careful about bombing countries that can vaporize your cities.

Further, Israel depends entirely on a foreign country, namely America, for its survival. The US provides the weaponry, the financial aid, the vetoes in the UN, and the last-resort military support that comes when Israel is in trouble (1973, for example). Without this support, Israel could not last. Small countries without oil cannot support massive militaries.

If I were an Israeli, I would be uneasy about this. American support depends crucially, if not entirely, on the Israeli lobbies. Should these falter, so will Israel. It is not that the US seethes with repressed anti-Semitism awaiting its chance. It doesn't. But Americans don't much care about the outside world, know little of history and less of geography. Congress is loyal only to itself.

Today one reads of the recent overwhelming vote in Congress in support of Israel, but the number is highly artificial. The rub is that today is today, but there is always tomorrow. Congress supports whoever pays it or intimidates it, and today the Lobby can exact a heavy price for opposition. If the winds blow another way, Congress will sway in another direction. What might constitute a sufficient wind? I don't know. I note that Israel has no oil, its enemies do, and world demand is growing fast. Think: Taiwan.

Further, I doubt that public support for Israel is nearly as strong as we are told it is. Among conservatives, no small group, there is considerable mild hostility to Jews and a far stronger dislike of Israel. I'm not sure how serious the antagonism is. To be annoyed is one thing, but to want to see the country fall with the nearly assured hideous results is another. But people seldom think that far. Many, if they could, would shrug and say, "Whatever. It's their problem." A national shrug would end Israel.

Methinks a faint smell of doom hangs over Tel Aviv. American power appears to be on the decline, the outcome of its Islamic wars in doubt, its control over its Moslem client states uncertain. Nothing Israel is likely to do looks workable in the long run. The demographics are terrible, regional Arab hostility assured, the military balance only able to deteriorate, the whole enterprise hanging by a lobby. I remember thinking about the Soviet Union, "This can't last." I couldn't see how it could stop lasting either. It did stop. Unless something changes, and I don't have any bright ideas, I don't see a happy ending.

January 30, 2009
 

Jimmy Chitwood

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it would be nice for some of you pro-Israel folks to explain some of this to me. while i certainly don't know much about the background of the conflict, at the moment i don't see Israel doing anything that could be even loosely termed as "legal."

Israel hopes to colonize parts of Iraq as 'Greater Israel'
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

Jan 30, 2009, 00:20

Israeli expansionists, their intentions to take full control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and permanently keep the Golan Heights of Syria and expand into southern Lebanon already well known, also have their eyes on parts of Iraq considered part of a biblical "Greater Israel."

Israel reportedly has plans to relocate thousands of Kurdish Jews from Israel, including expatriates from Kurdish Iran, to the Iraqi cities of Mosul and Nineveh under the guise of religious pilgrimages to ancient Jewish religious shrines. According to Kurdish sources, the Israelis are secretly working with the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) to carry out the integration of Kurdish and other Jews into areas of Iraq under control of the KRG.[/quote]
 
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