ToughJ. Riggins - You've made two great posts in this thread, but my approach to the discussion of "Whiteness" (for want of a better word) places much of the "scientific rationalism" which You presented to one side. Whether one leans towards Creationism or evolution, the arguments of common ancestors, migrations, interbreeding, subraces and the like are inevitable, butI look upon the definition of White as both an obvious physical / genetic description (which can, admittedly, be rather blurry at times) and a set of concomitant cultural / behavioural traits, the two being, quite naturally, innately entwined. In order to do this, a bit of Ockham's Razor is required to excise the common ancestry / DNA angles (otherwise, everyone is ultimately "the same"
) and to concentrate on analysing White Europeans as the distinct "finished product" which gave rise to "our" civilization and way of life, which all of us here wish to protect.
Westside - Of course one may be genetically white and be a Muslim. But ask Yourself why You support White athletes over non-White athletes. You wish (I assume) to support athletes that You can identify with, with whom You share not only physical traits such as skin colour, but also cultural traits, behavioural traits and values. We all know that blacks don't differ from us
solely because they have black skin - it's the black mentality that causes the problems. It's the same with Muslims, be they Berbers, Arabs, Persians, et cetera. These peoples' entire worldview differs from ours profoundly and they have always generally been very antagonistic towards Europeans. What do we have in common with Muslims (apart from an antipathy towards Jews
)? Our ancestors fought them for centuriesin order to defend European culture from Muslim aggression - I'll wager that our forebears didn't view the Muslims as White and would be disgusted at the mere suggestion. In my humble opinion, we cannot dilute the meaning of White - that's what I'm getting at. Muslims don't see themselves as being White, so why should we wish to confer that honour upon them?
As You mentioned, Zidane has displayed plenty of "affelete"-esque behaviour. Anyone who has seen their fair share of matches involving North African, Turkish, or Middle Eastern teams will be familiar with such demonstrations of thuggish, cheating comportment.
f3dor - The "cultural baloney" that You speak of comprises all of the non-cosmetic strands which together form "Western" identity. The universal European Christian / secular mores and traditions which link Whites around the world are the basis of White civilization - these common cultural characteristics mean that a somewhat swarthy Italian or Spanish Catholic and a pale blond Norwegian Lutheran or South African Boer Calvinist share both an understanding of, for instance, the meaning of Christmas and Easter, and a natural abhorrence of polygamy, child brides, arranged marriages, casual violence against women and the cruelty of ritual slaughter of livestock.
Sure, Cat Stevens didn't magically cease to be genetically white following his conversion to Islam but, by embracing that religion, he ceased to be White - note the capitalization. By his act of conversion, the benighted idiot who now called himself Yusuf Islam rejected his White heritage and identity and, just like a "miscegenist", voluntarily "opted out" of the White race. He sure as hell didn't see himself as one of "us". Stevens / Yusuf became what Zidane was born as - a Muslim. So if the former "traitor" doesn't belong, then the latter "original" Muslim by extension doesn't belong either. If France fielded an all-Berber team, would You consider that team as White as, let's say, the Italian national team?
One thing is certain - as I pointed out in my last post, the Whites who actually have to deal with Muslims (regardless of whether those Muslims are Berbers, Arabs, Pakistanis, black Africans, Albanians, or Bosnians) are, funnily enough, unequivocal in regarding the said people as non-White. Most Bosnian Muslims may be largely genetically identical to Serbs, but the Serbs certainly don't view them as fellow Whites - they view them in the same way as they view Turks and Albanians. Just as importantly, the Bosnian Muslims don't see themselves as "Serbs who simply happen to be Muslims" - they are instead part of the wider Muslim world. I remember seeing footage of Bosnian Muslim units in the Balkan Wars of the early 90s posing for photographs wearing Arabic headdresses with green Islamic battle flags reminiscent of the Ottomans fluttering in the background. That is their preferred identity, so are they still White? Would You wish to see Your sister or daughter marry one of these "white men"? Why not - after all, if one removes the "cultural baloney" they are still white, correct? Ah, yes, but You hate Islam...
Returning to the original subject of the Berber Zidane, here's another photo. So, does he still look White?
Edited by: Rebajlo
