Inequity in Sport & The Role Androgens

G

Guest

Guest
This obviously isn't a post specific to American Football, but I submit it here for the reason of greater traffic.


Racial inequity in sport and the role of exogenous androgens


I suppose it's common knowledge that different groups show variant levels of relative blood-testosterone following along ethnic- or race-specific, (or, perhaps more, accurately latitudinal) lines, and that this is commonly cited as (one of ) the chief phenotypic differences when examining the fact of ethnic performance disparity in sport. It's no secret that more southerly hominid types are developmentally accelerated relative to their more northerly (id est: neotenous or paedomorphic) cousins; this is true of most higher vertebrates...it stands to reason and is consistent among human groups as well. The mechanism of this precocity, most here likely presume, is that slightly augmented presence of blood-testosterone in these accelerated groups. However, I might point out another physiological mechanism in this: The relative affinity or sensitivity of hormone (specifically in this case, androgen) receptors in variant populations. This is (exponentially?) significant with the introduction of exogenous, performance-enhancing androgens.


I myself can attest to this anecdotally; perhaps some of you reading will have corroborative recalls. I, myself, am of a "southerly type" Caucasian extraction, and following with this, can recall being developmentally accelerated relative to certain other more conservative, or what I might call, neotenous, children. That is, most especially East-Asian Orientalid types, Amerindian Orientalid types, and also most Northerly Nordic-type Caucasians and other whites with some other obviously northern or central-European or Asiatic admixture. I grew up in a very ethnically diverse region, by most any standard. As I remember, it was only those most southerly groups (very swarthy southerly Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern Caucasian Whites, Mediterranean-Caucasian or Mulatto derived Hispanics, and Sub-Saharan-West-African derived Blacks) who seemed as accelerated (or, especially in the case of Black kids, more so.) I, myself, was always very athletic by any standard; there seems to be a correlative between developmental precocity, general muscularity and motor-neural recruitment (I won't get into this here, but I think the implication is clear enough.) As a young man, I had occasion to experiment with common steroids, and was amazed to see some very relatively impressive results from only limited, sporadic experimentation. The guy I bought the stuff off kept something of an eye on my development, and said that I was one the most "gifted gainers" he had seen, the only other guy he mentioned as being "gifted" in this regard was a swarthy, southerly-type guy of Croatian extraction. Of the many dozens of guys in my extended group of (school, gym, work, etc.) relations that I knew to experiment at any level with exogenous androgens, I very definitely recall a correlation in this regard. I knew more than one notherly-type (blonde/blue, pale, etc.) some very big, strapping dudes even when 'natural', who saw really very modest gains from steroid use (some with pretty relatively bad incidentals, most notably, 'gyno', something I never even saw a hint of myself.) The only (half) Black I can recall, a part-time training partner (a 6-foot, 180-pounder, naturally) saw some pretty impressive results from only a couple of simple tes-suspension shots bought as something of a lark. I've seen some Japanese pro-wrestlers who obviously use 'roids, and they seem especially cursed in this regard, often getting just plain bloated and ravaged by 'gyno'. One Asian guy I recall at the gym seemed to get pretty good (Caucasian-level) results; he was Vietnamese, a relatively swarthy, southern Orientalid type.


I've heard it said before, and I'll point out again here in paraphrase. The only difference between 'great' amateur bodybuilders and the guys who go pro (even after accounting for things like genetic gifts of 'good' muscle bellies & tendon insertions & aesthetic body symmetry, yadda yadda) is that the pros are often just the guys who happen to be blessed with big, greedy testosterone receptors. My dealer, as well as more than a few others, had told me I could be something of a pro-am competitor. I had nice enough symmetry, was evenly proportioned (limb-length, torso dimensions, etc) and those kinds of things, and worked adequately hard in the gym (maybe a little lazy) but these 'gifts' likely only account for less than half of a winning formula. I knew what they really meant: you just happen to have 'those kinds of receptors' (and, oh yeah, "buy more of my roids" of course!)


Pro sport is far more complex than bodybuilding, of course, but the implication is clear enough, especially in the functional bio-labs that modern American sporting arenas have become (American Football being the worst offender in this regard.) In the argument: "Do you really think White athletes don't use steroids?" I think one need not resort to ambiguous sociological commentary (however potentially valid, but likely unsupported by any conventional evidence) like "Blacks are just more likely to use them because of a tendency to caprice; therefor law of averages, etc." The disparities in relative developmental precocity and its mechanisms are likely well-known in coaching and training circles, if unspoken officially. Collegiate programs have become little more than extensions of a greater pro-sport and entertainment medium. These programs have long since discarded any vestiges of a long-forgotten paradigm intent in what I would call "moulding socially viable individuals." Instead, they're now in the business of "casting valuable commodities"...be they cogs of industry, commerce, or in this case, mass-consumer entertainment (and more than a few in this conspiracy-minded forum might suggest, social-engineering?) Using a strict cost-analysis, it's no surprise that we see the rise of small groups of 'receptor gifted' individuals skimmed off the top of larger developmentally accelerated group-wholes, for the purpose of investment in high-cost training and biochemical enhancement. This sort of thing really seemed to accelerate in the '80s, as has been pointed out before, likely when newer, more streamlined designer androgens and related training systems began to emerge (the genesis of this often coming out of the newly-crumbling Eastern bloc.) Maybe it's no coincidence that this quantum leap in Western performance (by Sub-Saharan-West-African Diaspora populations) follows with the mass-defection of Soviet and East-German sport scientists in the late '70s and '80s?


Testing this hypothesis, and controlling for other variables, consider the (relative) equity in women's competitions. Looking at sprinting (a pure test of sheer athleticism) we see similar arcs in ethnic inequity, although exponentially less so. This stands to reason since developmental/sexual precocity is (absolutely) good for male athletes, but only (sort of) good for women athletes. It is of course the very physical manifestations of woman-hood which make female athletes slower than men, so it stands to reason that any developmentally accelerated group (as a result of one of the same mechanisms which bestows this favour when enlisting exogenous performance enhancing hormones) should see a lesser advantage in the case of the females. Exogenous androgens can decrease bust size as well as general estrogen-enduced fatty-deposition, but some other specifically female physiological morphology remain impairments (wide hips being the most notable) and these would manifest earlier and in some cases to greater extremes (given a standard bell-curving distribution) in the case of developmentally precocious groups. In a sport like sprinting, where exogenous androgens are used, we might expect still to see these 'receptor gifted' groups occupying the most elite positions (when some of these impairments happen to be less manifest as a result of circumstances of individual physical morphology) with a smaller but well-represented number from the less 'receptor gifted' populations; and this seems to be the case.


We see patterns that parallel this in other sporting endeavours: consider changing attitudes regarding sport-specific steroid recruitment. Often in the evolution of different sports, there had been attitudes in the past that "steroids will just make you cumbersome and slow and won't help in this sport"...this was most notably true in baseball, for example. This attitude actually had a good deal of validity in the past, when steroids were still very poorly engineered and steroid-specific training systems had not been conceived. With the gradual introduction of newer steroids and training systems, we see performance enhancement being introduced into formerly 'finesse' -based sports like baseball, track & field (especially the sprints starting in the late sixties) boxing, etc. Changes in these sports' demographics seemed to follow. Even in those countries that continued to pump out competitive athletes, sprinters, for example, most notably the Eastern Bloc, to compete with 'Western' (re: Black) athletes, we see a remarkably similar microcosmic pattern. The great Valeriy Borzov, for example, was Ukrainian, a relatively southerly type of Slav, as was virtually all of the competitive Caucasian-derived sprinters to the modern era, be they Bulgarian (Petrov), Pole (Woronin and others), Italian (Mennea and others) and a host of other great Ukrainian sprinters during the Communist sprint hay-days. Of course there was Allan Wells and Geir Moen, but even they seemed sort of swarthy by the standards of their respective regions. It's no secret that many Irish, Welsh and Scots can appear nearly Arabic in complexion; there are Phoenician and Iberian-derived Diaspora groups in Scandinavia, where entire small, remote villages in Norway can be quite swarthy. Looking at recent performers, Macrozonaris, Collio, Kenteris, Nagel are consistent here; of course Shirvington, Little, Osovnikar and Ito stand as extremes on the very far end of their respective bell-curves. I don't know about Andrey Yepishin; perhaps another great Ukrainian sprinter? Further, we see southerly Ukrainian (and Kazakh, Uzbek, etc) boxers beginning to emerge...boxing trainers long-derided steroid use, but it has become, IMHO, de rigeur for at least 20 years. I believe Vasili Alexeev identified as Ukrainian, but regardless, he could very easily have passed as even a Turk, a country which now so thoroughly dominates in power- & weightlifting. Some might point out World's Strongest Man competitions that are dominated by very nordic-type Scandinavians. I would suggest that these competitions rely as much on experience and technique, and we see older men in the elite ranks (well over 30 years.) In this case, being less 'receptor gifted' is not so much of a disadvantage (it's not that these groups don't ever see benefit, it is just that these benefits take that much longer to manifest.) Also, "Strong Man" competitions still occupy that stage of semi-contested 'folk' interest where instant-gratification gainers are not currently channeled (American Football is notorious for it's insatiable thirst for immediate 'impact' players...substitute the word 'impact' for 'juice-friendly'.)


As long as exogenous performance-enhancing androgens remain ubiquitous in any pro sport, I would expect to see these relatively exaggerated disparities to continue. With the emergence of gene-manipulation as a method of performance enhancement, we'll likely see new patterns emerge, although don't expect much of a change in the demographics. Sub-Saharan-West-African gene sets tend to show broader disparity in variance (this being consistent with a less 'bottle-necked' precursor gene pool...look up horse breeding and animal husbandry for some hints as to the future of performance enhancement in sport, if you don't believe me.)
 

Kaptain

Master
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
3,383
Location
Minnesota
I don't buy it. There is probably relevance to reaching puberty more quickly among cetain racial groups but I don't see any real evidence that certain groups have more androgen receptors than others as adults. Least the of all the Nordic/Russian type having less receptors. The Nordic type has dominated strength competition forever. This can't be written away as simple technique advantages or lack of interest from other racial groups. I will say that certain racial groups are more likely to experiment with steriods - they are the same groups that also do most of the experimenting with other illegal drugs for fun. Androgen receptors and amount of testosterone in the blood stream should be easily measurable, and thus there should be some scientific data to support differences. I haven't looked real hard but I have never heard of such a report.
 

Colonel_Reb

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
13,987
Location
The Deep South
Since we whites can lift more than anyone, does it mean we have more testosterone, or that ours is better? Just curious.
 

SteveB

Mentor
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
1,043
Location
Texas
In theory, your argument sounds good, but I wonder how much culture and climate affect performance in these sports. In any group there are probably outliers with the genetic potential to become a world class sprinter, yet those people never develop that potential with training and diet. I think that climate may have as much bearing on your analysis. If you look at the U.S., most of the elite baseball players, swimmers, golfers, and track athletes come from the southern half of the U.S. It is not that these athletes are genetically superior, but they have the opportunity to train/play their chosen sport year-round.

Muscle fiber recruitment is important to excelling at sports that require explosiveness. This is a neuro-muscular response that is developed over years and begins at a young age. When kids play sports such as basketball and soccer, they develop this skill which is only enhanced as they grow older. Steroids will enhance this by strengthening the fibers that are recruited to perform a given task, but the neuro response must be there to begin with. This is why you will see basketball players with skinny legs that can jump high. They are able to recruit more of their muscle fibers to perform the task of jumping.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Who said 'more receptors'? Who said 'better testosterone'?? Idon't know where the notion "Nordic typeshave dominated strength competitions forever" comes from. I'm no strength-sports historian, buta perfunctory check of some of the notable greats from the past shows a pretty broad variance, if not a pattern.


Louis Cyr - Swarthy southern French-Canadian.


Hackenschmidt - Estonian; probably some sort of Nordic/Slavic.


Sandow- Prussian; looks Nordic and/or alpine Caucasian to me.


The Great Antonio - Ethnically Serbian; very swarthy guy.


Vasili Alexeev - a Ukrainian who, like the Klitschkos, could easily pass for even North African.


Ahh-nold - Austrian; pretty fair Europid type. Not really a strongman, I guess.


Ken Patera - Uncertain; looks like he could be Italian or some kind of Balkan?


Franco Colombo - Obviously very Italian; an 'overachiever' given his smurfish height!


Magnus VerMagnusson - Obviously very Nordic (the greatest amongthe various Scandinavian StrongMan legends???)


For whatever cultural reason, Turks are now disproportionately represented in the universally recognized and contestedOlympic and other World Weightlifting circles.
 
G

Guest

Guest
http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/full/20/13/3001


I haven't read this one in a while, but as I recall, it's pretty informative stuff. Ignorance seems to breed resentment, in my experience...


Some sample studies found after 10-second google search:


1.>


http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/full/20/17/3599


specially relevant excerpt:


...several previous studies have evaluated racial variations<SUP> </SUP>in CAG repeat lengths<SUP>4</SUP><SUP>-</SUP><SUP>8</SUP> (Table 3). These studies reported that<SUP> </SUP>among men without prostate cancer, mean CAG repeat lengths were<SUP> </SUP>shorter by 1.9, 2.0, 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 for African-American<SUP> </SUP>men. The study by Panz et al<SUP>4</SUP> included 40 prostate cancer patients<SUP> </SUP>and found that mean CAG repeat lengths were shorter by 1.0 in<SUP> </SUP>African-American versus white prostate cancer patients. In our<SUP> </SUP>study, mean CAG repeat lengths for African-American veterans<SUP> </SUP>with prostate cancer were 2.1 shorter in comparison to white<SUP> </SUP>veterans. Among patients with prostate cancer, only 16% of the<SUP> </SUP>white veterans versus 36% of the African-American veterans had<SUP> </SUP>CAG repeat lengths less than 18. In the study by Panz et al,<SUP>4</SUP><SUP> </SUP>5% of the white and 25% of the African-American patients had<SUP> </SUP>CAG repeat lengths less than 18. It should be noted that different<SUP> </SUP>methods have been used to evaluate CAG repeat lengths, which<SUP> </SUP>may account in part for differences in reported mean CAG repeat<SUP> </SUP>lengths among the various studies.<SUP> </SUP>


[Italics added]


This would seem to imply a physical (and functional) distinction in the mechanism of androgen reception. This article makes no reference to anything related specifically to developmental precocity (except, maybe the developmental precocity of one very specific sort of androgen-induced pathology; prostate cancer.) We're all likely aware here of the heightened incidence of androgen-related disease in 'African-American' Black males...specifically male cancers, cardio-pulmonary diseases, etc. The correlation is clear enough, and most people seem to accept that this is a function of higher levels of blood-testosterone among Blacks.


Nature has a tendency to what could be called functional redundancy; that is to compound a functioning adaptation with redundant 'back-up' measures. It stands to reason that if an organism (here human beings) should need to adapt to a changing topography by adopting developmental deceleration (as, presumably would be the case for groups of peoples moving out of equatorial regions into temperate and sub-arctic ones; this is called neoteny) as an adaptive strategy, the corporal changes are backed-up redundantly. The obvious adaptation is to reduce levels of developmental hormones, which is a fact we all seem to take for granted; further, nature redundantly modifies the hormone receptor at the other end of the organism. This same sort of redundancy of function is found in the development of the neo-cortex as well, and, quite comically, misunderstanding of this redundancy has resulted in all sorts of misconceptions about the human brain. The notion that "we only use x percent of our brain!" is now held as something of a folk truism, where x is usually some number much less than 25%. The logic here being: Humans are obviously very intelligent, and have big brains, therefor brain size must be the sole mechanism of higher intelligence. Ergo, this non-functional brain matter must serve some other 'mystical' purpose inexplicable by conventional science. This nugget of pseudo-science originated early in the progress of research into brain anatomy, where scientists were amazed to find that only small regions of the brain ever seemed to function with any regularity. This gave rise to phrenology. When later research explored brain pathology and injury, they found that much of these non-functional matrices seemed to exist as redundant functions, taking up work-loads vacated by injured regions. There are other redundant mechanisms in the brain only now becoming understood. Nature (or God) made us redundantly adapted to intelligence. It stands to reason that the critical endocrine systems should be 'backed-up' in a similar fashion.


2.&gt;


[url]http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1523-17 47.2001.01261.x/abs/?cookieSet=1 [/url]


This would seem to suggest that, indeed, not all androgen receptors are created equal...it's no secret that different ethnic groups (even those within broader 'racial categories') bald in very different ways, if at all. This is true of all hair throughout the human body. It's not so implausible to imagine that these variances could be common to many other endocrine-influenced components of the body's structures. Note that nobody anywhere is using the terms 'better' or 'superior' related to testosterone itself (which, as far as I know, is bio-chemically the same in all people) nor any other endocrine component. These things are really just (sometimes) a matter of being more or less adaptive, or even just a product of some semi-random precursor effect or bottle-necking which takes place.


3.&gt;


http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/pdf/clincarsch200393667li.pdf


This one deals a little with the whole short-allele AR thing again, relating to women's reproductive pathology.


4.&gt;


[url]http://www.psychgenetics.com/pt/re/psychgen/abstract.0004144 4-200403000-00010.htm;jsessionid=CBLUCqz7m6WxKCSIbrhyV4YzNh8 pxouPmYz7CG7zaLnsH2uVOWx2!1362100327!-949856032!9001!-1 [/url]


Here's one briefly mentioning receptors, mental illness and alcoholism...perhaps you can see what I'm getting at here?


I checked in on this board recently after noticing it once before months ago, and see that it has taken something of a decidedly different tone. I guess I didn't really read enough of the posts or look too closely at the links that are related to this site, but the political elements here neither offend nor particularly entice me. If nothing else, it's all very interesting, I guess since I have the privilege of living here in (relatively moderate, cold, violent-crime-free) Canada. My interest stems from a pluralist-libertarian 'rooting for the underdog' angle. I do see a form of social-engineering going on in this forum, and, I dare say, perhaps even one or two chicken-hawks seem to be preying here, picking off some frustrated, disenfranchised sympathisers&amp; channeling (casting?
smiley2.gif
) them toward appropriate politically-motivated interests (along with their charitable donations...I dunno?)


I guess the point of all this is simply: The very things you seem to be finding so detestable about Blacks (loud, capricious, aggressive, lawless, lascivious, pathologically extroverted, etc.) are some of the same things other even more developmentally decelerated groups find offensive about us Whites (be they 'passionate' Mediterraneans or 'conservative' Nords.) I'm pointing out that the mechanism of these things is mostly (in my opinion) just where we all lie on a spectral continuum of relative developmental neoteny. The actual physical components of all groups (brain matter, muscles--all viscera) are identical in every other respect. If you don't want your kids to grow up lewd, lascivious &amp; conditioned to act impulsively, you'd probably do better in limiting their intake of androgen-enriched North American meat &amp; milk products than limiting their exposure to 'undesirable' peoples and their cultures. And that's coming from an admitted meat-lover. But, hey, there is something to be said for Mormons, Puritans, Amish, Wahabi Muslims, Militant Militiamen, David Koresh, and The Unabomber.


In any event I'll be watching both Josh Ranek and Sean Bennett on Canadian Government (Socialist) Broadcasting, as they play on the same CFL Ottawa Renegades team. I'm no 'Nordic-type' myself (as both these guys appear to be) but I can't help but root for any underdog, especially ones that have obviously been victims of discrimination. One of the greatest running-backs of all time up here was Chinese...Normie Kwong (this during the '50s.)


[url]http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume7/countrie s/china3.html[/url]


Hey, see if ya'll can't send Crouch up here too, we'd love to have him, regardless of his pigmentation.


I'dloveto hear from resident dragon DON WASSALL concerning these points...I hope no one removes this post out of spite!Edited by: JerveyGotGypped
 

Don Wassall

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Messages
31,565
Location
Pennsylvania
I'm not sure what you want me to comment about, your theory or your observations about theboard or both. The comment that your post would be removed out of spite isinexplicable to me. I enjoyed your observations and knowledge of football players during your short posting period a few months ago.


I don't know what you mean about the "decidedly different tone" of the board without more explanation. I don't think anything has changed other than what's being posted at any given time is a reflection of the combined thoughts and observations of those doing the posting, which is different than it was four months ago as new users are posting while some of the older ones have stopped. That happens with all boards. No one is pushed to think a certain way politically. Those who have posted on political topics have been from all over the political spectrum and all have been respectfully received.


As far as your theory, you indulge in a lot of conjecture andare far moreinterested in the relative "swarthiness" of whites than I am. Many if not mostU.S. whites are a combination of genes from all over Europe. English, Scots, Irish, Germans, Scandanavians, Slavs, Italians and Greeks have intermarried here for generations. Dan Marino and Joe Montana both have Italian names but both have Polish mothers. And maybe their fathers were only part-Italian and their mothers only part-Polish. Are they then Eastern European or Southern European? Something else? Who cares? They're great white football players. In Canada you have the strong French presence and ethnic consciousness but I would imagine that more than a fewof the "English" Canadians have more than just English ancestors.


The Caste System is about social engineering combined with a political and racial agenda far more than it is about androgen receptors, but if that's what you're interested in pursuing and discussing with others you're welcome to do so.Everyone who posts here regularly contributes in a different way.Edited by: Don Wassall
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
211
Wassall is right....if most US whites are mixed ethnically (i.e. Marino and Montana are both half-ITALIAN, half-POLISH)...how can you aptly study them as genetic subjects? What category do they fit into?
 

White Shogun

Hall of Famer
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
6,285
I'm just here to applaud those of you who actually read all the way through both of Jervey's 1/4 mile long posts.
smiley32.gif


smiley36.gif
 

Bart

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
4,329
White Shogun, Evelyn Wood couldn't make it through those posts! Only kidding. Shorter posts are easier to understand and invite more participation.


Jervey: If you don't want your kids to grow up lewd, lascivious &amp; conditioned to act impulsively, you'd probably do better in limiting their intake of androgen-enriched North American meat &amp; milk products than limiting their exposure to 'undesirable' peoples and their cultures.


Bart: So, what are you saying? Rural farm kids who grow up eating steaks, burgers and milk are more likely to becomescourges to society than if they wereexposed toinner-city morals and gangsta rap? No way.
 

white lightning

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
21,492
Let's take a look at Kyle Bell of Colorado State.He is
one of the top 10 high school running backs ever.He
rushed for over 8000 yards in high school & yes he is
a white boy who grew up on a farm.Gee,how could that
happen.He is a throwback to the old days.Working on a
farm is what has helped countless kids become incredible
athletes.Just as the University of Nebraska.lol.You
just can't convince some people that being white is not
a disease.What a joke!
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
211
I say Jesse Lumsden for NFL Rushing Title 2005...who's with me!!!
smiley32.gif


...all of a sudden...Canada to the rescue!
smiley4.gif
smiley36.gif
....
 

IceSpeed2

Guru
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
311
Location
Maine
One interesting element of the endocrinology in football is
how complicated the relationship between testosterone and muscles really
is. When the body fat makes rapid drops, the body stops producing
testosteron all together. There is also a correllation between the amount
of testosterone the body produces and one's percent body fat.



On another topic, Don observed that blacks often looked cut, but could not
bench a lot of weight. This would make sense if low body fat could be a
hinderance to testosterone production.
 

IceSpeed2

Guru
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
311
Location
Maine
It will be a sad day when we have to ask Canada to
restore integrity to America. Oh well, they're all right north of
the border I guess.
smiley1.gif
 

White_Savage

Mentor
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
1,217
Location
Texas
HW: Identical twins seperated at birth are usually similar in such unlikely seeming things as politics, religion, style, and even the vegatables they dislike. So personality traits can definitely be genetic. I think in a modern hyper-civilization like America, it's harder to be virtuous than it is in the village where choices are fewer, rigidly-enforced standards go unchallenged by media or nearby different cultures, etc. When it comes to conducting yourself in a place like an American city, with a bewildering array of choices, raw intelligence and foresight become more important in detirmining behavior. Let's face it, most people in the modern West don't fear divine retribution for their actions, and in our mobile and anonymous society, they fear social censure little more. That pretty much leaves two things to detirmine your behavior-your ability to calculate personal consequences and control impulses, and whatever sentiment is ingrained emotionally by your upbringing. Let a people have low levels of the former, actively destroy the latter as Liberalism strives to do, especially in certain communities and you get-voila!-the situation we have with blacks and crime. So yeah, it's genetics and culture together, but science has shown us the former has far more to do with the matter than anyone cares to admit.

And the idea that your kids diet has more to do with his upbringing than his genetics OR his culture, is something I'm quite astonished to see anyone asserting.

Jervey: So, what are you saying? Without steroids, there would be no or alot less of the putative athletic advantage difference amongst races?
 

Kaptain

Master
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
3,383
Location
Minnesota
Jervey - everyone wants to know the point you are trying to make in one simple paragraph. Small print please.
 

White_Savage

Mentor
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
1,217
Location
Texas
Forgot to mention a central flaw in Jervey's argument, but better late than never. Bear with me guys.

This theory of "The swarthier the Euro, the better weightlifter", doesn't work if you follow it to it's logical extreme, and look at blacks. Black male performance in strength events is no better than white performance in the sprints, despite their being the swarthiest and southerliest of all humans, and thus supposedly having the most androgen receptors. Turkish performance can be easily explained, since they are basically Indo-European anotomically (slight differences in the gene pool probably not being enough to lead to differing athletic performances-the shape of your skeleton and limbs and general conformation of your musculature no doubt being far more important than any supposed levels of "neotany" anyone suffers from), and because they have a centuries-old fanatic culture of strength sports, especially wrestling.
 
G

Guest

Guest
I'm usually a pretty busy guy andI haven't the time to post much on any of the fora I like tolook in on, and so I apologize for not responding to (mounting) replies.


I've postedthis theory about AR alleles, exogenous androgens and developmental neoteny in this erudite and long-format style because I've found, in other fora, that's it's quite an effective methodof filtering for those with, let's say,"limited aptitudes"...If you don't read the posts in their entirety, please don't cherry-pick from individual segments and nit-pick at auxiliary points (which areusually posited as peripheral andanecdotal, and sometimes half-jokingly, which should be perfectly obviousin later paragraphs.) Furthermore, I guess Icould appologize for lack of brevity, but Isuppose I'm just used to writing long-form theses at institutions of learning, etc. I just went over my earlier posts, and combined read-time was no more than 5-8minutes. At least a couple of the more pedantic/verbose posters here seem to have done a (partial) read-through.
 
G

Guest

Guest
hollywoodnorth said:
JerveyGotGypped:

Interesting post: I have a few questions, perhaps you can elaborate upon:
You explain equatorial/southerly ethnic groups as having precipitated muscular/pubertal development RELATIVE to Nordic/Teuton ethnicities. You explain thsir state of precocity as being a function of: (I quote) "...slightly augmented presence of blood-testosterone in these accelerated groups." Furthermore that the said populations may have higher "relative affinity or sensitivity of hormone (androgen) receptors in variant populations. This is significant with the introduction of exogenous, performance-enhancing androgens."

My question is - How do you scientifically correlate: A)populations with higher melanine, with B) higher blood-testosterone levels (on average), and thus, ultimately C) precocity, and D) accelerated physical/motor development ?
How does higher melanin=higher testosterone=better athletes.
h) open to any explanation for our racial/biological differences, but more proof is needed here.



Nowhere did I mention the role of melanin in any of this, but the relationship between chromatics and sexual maturation display is fairly obvious. More equatorial Caucasians tend to be swarthy; this is a characteristic idiosynchratic among this group, who also, likely by virtue of some relationship to their environment(s) of evolutionary adaptation (EEA) are relatively developmetally accelerated (in this comparative binary spectral comparison only with other Caucasian groups, respectively.) I don't feel the need to go further into the particulars of Evolutionary Psychology, hominid adaptation, yadda yadda yadda...perhaps some other time...


http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/
 
G

Guest

Guest
hollywoodnorth said:
JerveyGotGypped:

The Kenyan population hsa produced most of the world's best long-distance runners, scientists have attributed this (partly) to their body sructures: lean, narrow-hiped, small-boned, meagre body fat, lean muscle tissue.
The exponentially lighter-skinned and far less equatorial Russians (or Poles, Bulgarians, Serbs, Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Croats, Hungarians, Turks, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Latvians, etc) have produced an exponentially higher amount of world-class weight lifters. Some scientists have gone as far as to stufy these East/Northern European athletes and have noted their shorter limbs, broader shoulders, greater body mass and dense bones as (possible) reasons for their strength. Of course, I am talking about averages here as ther are undoubtedly numerous weak Russians and powerful Kenyans in this world. By the way, these strongmen are almost unanimously light-skinned and rarely had black hair.



This has really more to do with peculiarities of morphology and physiology as much as with developmental neoteny. When relative limb-lengths and other incidental environmental adaptations(perhaps also figuring in with neoteny as the driving imperative in evolution) become bottle-necked standards, it figures that these might be of benefit in other (not adpatively relevant) ways. These Kenyans runners (more accurately Kalenjin, and other tribes from the western Great Rift Valley, who number less than 4 million people) are a rare biometric paradigm that stand as an exemplar of the effects of bottlenecking in gene sets. Clearly, extremes at the ends of normal distribution bells can produce supreme variants that can supercede such things as rates of development. This actually figures into another principle for Sub-Saharan over-representation in sport...the fact of broader genetic variance in pre-Diaspora (pre- "out of Africa") groups.
 
G

Guest

Guest
hollywoodnorth said:
JerveyGotGypped:



If one were to compare the athletic feats of middle-easterners as opposed to Nordic....the result would be a humiliatingly lop-sided victory for the Scandinavians (regardless the age group). If one were to compare the sporting feats of blond-haired, blue-eyed,Aryan/Teuton Germans with swarthy Philipinos or Vietnamese...once again, the supposedly puerile and testosterone deficient Pales win again (by a landslide). I don't think this (your)theory accurately explains athletic differences. Even in America, were all have equal opportunites (generally speaking) pale, light-skinned Caucasians out perform swarthy, tanned Caucasians or similar-coloured Asians. The greatest 'white' name in basketball? Larry 'the blond' Bird. Foorball? Dan 'blue eyes' Marino, Peyton 'blond hair' Manning, Brett 'the blond bombshell' Favre...many top US (Caucasian" athletes have blue eyes and hair that ranges from blonde to chestnut brown and light skin.



Most Caucasian NFL players are not swarthy or black-haired. Look up every NFL roster, you will see that their are more fair-haired and light-skinned Caucasian NFLers than there are tanned, Mediterranean types. Many of the Southern European and/or Slavic-based NFLers are fair-skinned and light-haired (blond, dirty blond, red, brown) as well (Izzo, Incognito, Raiola, Grasmanis, Navarre, Gomez, Koutouvides, Stepanovich, Mruczkowski, Fujita, Archuleta, Olshansky, Guidugli, LaBoy, Rodriguez, Filipovic, Fabini, Machado, Sobieski, Parella, Sverchek, Dorenbos, Janikowski, Cieslak, etc...JR Niklos is a blond Greek (one of a handfull of Greeks in the NFL) a rarity by any standards). Most White NFLers have British or Germanic names...two nations that are decidedly Tueton, Saxon and otherwise...not swarthy.




Dealing strictly with Caucasian groups here, not philipinos or viets, etc. I raised Viets in relation to Japanese in earlier allusion, not directly to Caucasians along a linear "chromatic sprectrum"...the point being here that we can identify and look for patterns among groups where a definite phenotype can be identified as an indicator of developmental precocity, leaving as many other variants as possible to be controlled for...different groups who are otherwise related in other ways...as with Viets and Japanese both being charaterized as "Asian" and "Oriental"...especially where this group may have no genetic capacity to manifest 'blondism' in any real way, this being a later adaptation which appeared in later Indo-Aryan groups after some kind of 'Proto-Europid' and 'Proto-Orientalid' schism. Obviously, Nordics are not likely as developmentally 'paedomorphous' as, say, Viets...especially when we look at other markers of neoteny...delayed onset of maturation displays, modest relative development of primary and secondary maturation displays as a final form; relative uniformity (lack of extreme variance) of morphology, especially of psycho-sexual signalling devices/maturity displays; lack of body hair; high cranium-to-body mass rtios; shortened, stunted&amp; otherwisepaedomorphic development of limbs, especially the legs(this one perfectly obvious to anyone who's spent any time around Japanese, Korean and Inuit people, especially the females)...etc etc.


As for "Most Caucasian NFL players are not swarthy or black-haired"...Caucasians of any variety are rarely black-haired, but rather dark-brown-haired. The supposed lack of swarthy NFLers likely has as much to do with demographics as anything else (Italians, Greeks, Jews, Lebanese, Persians, etc.) tend to live on the coasts; in big cities; in big, culturally-centrist families and extended groups; etc etc. Indeed we see patterns relating to this even when looking at ethnically uniform groups represented in the sport (you'll see that a great many of the, let's say, blonde-haired 'White' NFLers originatefrom pretty uniform cultural and geographic templates.) Half the players listed here seem pretty swarthy, anyhow...Olshansky is ethnic Ukrainian Jew...Koutouvides is pretty swarthy...so is Fujita...Parella...LaBoy...Grasmanis...some of these other guys are fairer in complexion; I'm not familiar withmany of these other names...less significant performers, likely.


I see that this site has a particular interest in the CB position...perhaps it's no surprise that pretty much every non-Black CB in recent NFL history has obviously been of a Southern European extraction.


Sehorn - I don't know how he self-identifies, but he's obviouslydisplaying some prettysoutherly phenotypes. Even if he were to self-identify as, say "Irish" or "Welsh" or something you might categorize as "Teutonic" or "Anglo", he'd likely only be further qualified as "Black Irish" or something...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Zeta_Jones


http://www.unreel.co.uk/reviews/j/Johnny_English/co2.jpghttp://home.rixtele.com/~urdskalla/Skivomsl*g/Rowan_Atkinson.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Stage/1570/tbl4.jpghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_Atkinson


http://www.celtic.hu/lordofthedance/pix/gn3.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams


some examples of Irish, Welsh and British with some pretty undeniable "southern" type extraction like Sehorn....and his wife...


http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/ movie_pix/miramax_films/bridget_jones_s_diary/_group_photos/ angie_harmon18.jpg


Looking at other CBs who have competed at any level in recent years (including training-camp cast-offs and rookie-camp busts)...in order of pro-level success:


Kevin KEASVIHARN - Anybody have any idea about this guy? Mediterranean? Phoenician-diaspora Scandinavian orLapp? The only post-Sehorn guy to play regular-season CB.


http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/08/08-27b.html


ToddFRANZ - Some kind of swarthy German...possibly Jewish...actually played some pre-season CB if I recall correctly?


http://www.packersnews.com/team/images/Franz_Todd.jpg


Evan HLAVACHECK - southern-type slav...competed well in Jags camps years ago.


http://www.aflroundhouse.com/photos/hlavacek_evan.jpg


Tony LUKINS - Could be half Hispanic or something? Collegiate sprinter. did well in SEA camps


http://www.ngz-online.de/rheinfire/Bilderserien/2004-0330kad er/kader/37.jpg


Brian KING - Couldn't find a pic right now, but as I recall, he's not as dark as these other guys, but hardly "Nordic"...


Chris KERN - Looks to be blonde &amp; blue-eyed; a phenomenal athlete by any account.


http://www.muc.edu/var/storage/storage/images/media/image_fo lder/athletic_photos/football/football_archive/2002_football _archive/2002_football_headshots/kern_head_shot_jpg/11048-2- eng-US/kern_head_shotjpg_large.jpg


The only other guy that pops into my mind right now is the last "great white" CB, Scott CASE, who most definitely fits into this pattern. I couldn't find a pic, but I seem to recollect him having a darkItalian-looking '80s-style moustache and pretty curly dark hair. Maybe someone can find and post pics for these guys, refuting or vindicating me.


Is their some sort of conspiracy filtering for 'Nordic-looking' CBs specifically then?Edited by: JerveyGotGypped
 

Kaptain

Master
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
3,383
Location
Minnesota
To Jerveygotspeed,


I wouldn't questioning the "aptitude" of the members of this site. I have plenty of education myself (In science btw) but common sense is much more important. State your thesis - period.


"Is there some sort of conspiracy filtering for "Nordic-looking" CBs specifically then?"


Absolutely. Blond haired and blue-eyed people are hated by blacks and most caste sytem supporters. The few CB's you mention doesn't show any evidence of the "swarthy" type's athletic domination over the nordic type. The sample size is way too small to draw any conclusions and the caste system has also affected the outcome. A better example would have been to look at the cornerbacks from 30-40 years ago. However, you would have found many nordic types playing CB during that time period.


Neoteny in the Nordic types? I don't know how they are producing the world's strongest men then. The Russian domination in sports should put to rest that theory. Now don't come back with this "I'm just too damn smart for you BS" just because I disagree. Lastly, state your thesis clearly. Edited by: Kaptain Poop
 

JD074

Master
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
2,301
Location
Kentucky
I agree, Kaptain. Good ideas are important, but it's also important to be able to communicate them clearly and simply. This is a sports site intended for a layman audience, as far as I know. So we should be able to explain things so that a layman can understand them. Just because someone doesn't understand all the scientific terminology, or doesn't have the time to read extremely long posts, doesn't make him dumb.
 
Top