Hall of Fame snubs

[Capricorn]

What do you guys think, which of the following belong in the Pro Football HOF?

QB Ken Anderson (Bengals)​

QB Ken Stabler (Raiders)​

TE Todd Christensen (Raiders)​

G Rick Stanfel (Redskins)
​

G Jerry Kramer (Packers)​

T Rick Schafrath (Browns)
​

T Jim Tyrer (Chiefs)​

C Mick Tingelhoff (Vikings)​

G Bob Kuechenberg (Dolphins)​

T Joe Jacoby (Redskins)​

DT Alex Karras (Lions)​

MLB Tommy Nobis (Falcons)​

LLB Joe Fortunato (Bears)​

RLB Maxie Baughan (Eagles)​

RLB Andy Russell (Steelers)​

OLB Kevin Greene (Rams)​

OLB Chuck Howley (Cowboys)​

ILB Randy Gradishar (Broncos)​

ILB Karl Mecklenburg (Broncos)​

FS Cliff Harris (Cowboys)​

P Ray Guy (Radiers)​

K Gary Anderson (Steelers)​

K Mark Moseley (Redskins)​

K/P Tommy Davis (49ers)​

ST/WR Steve Tasker (Bills)​

 

[Carolina Speed]

Great list Capricorn. I will have to go with Chuck Howley( Dallas Cowboys), the only Super Bowl MVP that came off the losing team. Dallas lost to Baltimore in '71' 16-13 in what was called the ugliest Super Bowl ever.

Also FS Cliff Harris deserves to be in. I used to be a Cowboys fan in the 70's, the days of Staubach,Harris, Charlie Waters, Randy White, Big John Dutton, Walt Garrison, etc.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Chuckin' Charlie Conerly is my addition to the list. I've mentioned him in similar threads before, and I know some of the same folks are going to disagree with me on him, but he helped change the way QBs played and went to three championships with the Giants.

 

[sport historian]

I have read that one criterea for admission to the HOF is whether there was a season in which a player was the best in the game at his position. Another is if the history of pro football could be written without mentioning his name.

Ken Anderson has support at this time from the Cold Hard Football Facts site and prominent writers. In 1981-82, Anderson was arguably the best QB in the NFL. Had he brought the Bengals from behind and won Super Bowl XVI, he would now be in.

They say Charlie Conerly's stats aren't good enough. On the other hand, he was a very famous player on a glamour team that won one title and just missed in the 1958 "Greatest Game Ever Played." It doesn't look like he will get in.

 

[Don Wassall]

I recently watched the end of a show on the NFL Network about the "Top Ten Hall of Fame Snubs." Quite surprisingly for that ultra-Caste network, the number one snub was White -- Jerry Kramer.

 

[sport historian]

I recently watched the end of a show on the NFL Network about the "Top Ten Hall of Fame Snubs." Quite surprisingly for that ultra-Caste network, the number one snub was White -- Jerry Kramer.

Jerry Kramer's absence from the HOF is a long-time controversy. Kramer was voted onto the 50th anniversary all-time NFL team announced in 1969. If he was one of the two best guards ever for the first 50 years, why isn't Jerry Kramer in the Hall?

There are several reasons. Some voters think enough of Lombardi's Packers are already in. Kramer came out with a book, "Instant Replay," about the 1967 season, Lombardi's last in Green Bay. It was a major best-seller at a time when books by players were not as common as now.

Jerry Kramer's block (Packer center Ken Bowman helped) on Cowboy DT Jethro Pugh enabled Bart Starr to score the winning TD in the Ice Bowl 1967 NFL Title Game. The block was played over and over on instant replay and gave the title to Kramer's book.

For one reason or another, many of people who vote for the pro football HOF seem to resent the publicity Jerry Kramer received. After their careers were over, some claimed the other Packer OG, Fuzzy Thurston, was better. Kramer, by the way, could also place kick. His 3 field goals were the difference in the Packer 16-7 win over the Giants in the 1962 title game.

It looks like Jerry Kramer will never be voted into the HOF. It is tough for offensive linemen to get in. My view is that the voters think there are "too many Packers."

 

[DixieDestroyer]

Good list Capricorn. At a minimum, I'd say Stabler, Kramer, Jacoby, Karras, "Mr.Falcon" Nobis & Ray Guy. In addition, I'd add Falcons iron man OT Mike Kenn...5x Pro-Bowl, 3x All Pro (1st team), 2x All-Pro (2nd team) & he started every game he played (251).

​

 

[white is right]

What about Pat Fischer (My favorite snub)? Also Ken Willard is a pretty big snub too. When Willard retired he was in the top ten in all-time rushing yards. IMO Ray Guy is probably the biggest snub as he universally regarded as the greatest punter in the history of the game. As for Black snubs Jim Marshall is probably the biggest snub.

 

[bigunreal]

Here's the broken record again- the biggest snub of all time is Jerry Smith. Until recent TEs like Sharpe and Gonzalez, Smith blew away any TE in history statistically, having nearly double the number of TD receptions as "superstars" like John Mackey and the most ridiculous HOF inductee ever, Charlie Sanders. Keep in mind that Smith was a complete player, too- he was known as the best blocking TE in the game, as well as having the best hands.

Other snubs are Jerry Kramer, Mick Tingelhoff, Bill Bergey, Gary Collins (voted to the all 1960 NFL team, and bitter about not being in the HOF), and numerous other white stars of the past.

But at this point, the HOF is controlled by the same forces that run the Caste System, so each year the new inductees are going to be reflective of that. There is undoubtedly now a strict quota for white players that will even be considered.

 

[sport historian]

Here's the broken record again- the biggest snub of all time is Jerry Smith. Until recent TEs like Sharpe and Gonzalez, Smith blew away any TE in history statistically, having nearly double the number of TD receptions as "superstars" like John Mackey and the most ridiculous HOF inductee ever, Charlie Sanders. Keep in mind that Smith was a complete player, too- he was known as the best blocking TE in the game, as well as having the best hands.

Other snubs are Jerry Kramer, Mick Tingelhoff, Bill Bergey, Gary Collins (voted to the all 1960 NFL team, and bitter about not being in the HOF), and numerous other white stars of the past.

But at this point, the HOF is controlled by the same forces that run the Caste System, so each year the new inductees are going to be reflective of that. There is undoubtedly now a strict quota for white players that will even be considered.

Jerry Smith was a very fine player who falls short of HOF caliber. He was never considered the best in the league at his position, his team didn't win a Super Bowl, and you can write the history of the NFL without him. Some of his stats came as a WR.

There is a big backlog of WRs from the 60s and 70s who won't get in. Gary Collins falls in this category.

By the way, did you notice that Chris Hanburger was inducted in the HOF?

 

[bigunreal]

I don't understand your antipathy towards Jerry Smith. Nor can I fathom how no one else here is lobbying for him. He played WR for one season, other than that his entire career was at TE. Yes, there are tons of white players who are more worthy of induction than lots of the blacks who have been inducted, but no white player has the kind of stats that Smith had in comparison to his peers.

If he was "never considered the best at his position," then the problem lies with those who are permitted to "consider" such things officially. His production was off the charts, when compared to any other TE from the dawn of the NFL until the 2000s.

John Mackey's stats are pathetic, yet he is "considered" great by the "experts." And Charlie Sanders....well, if anyone is interested in why I keep bringing him up, just google his stats. There are literally 100 TEs that are more deserving of being in the HOF. And by the way, he never played in a Super Bowl. Jerry Smith, like Jackie, played in one. Although that's really irrelevant to the question of whether any particular TE belongs in the HOF. I don't believe any TE can will a team to the Super Bowl.

What is even more remarkable about Smith is that his production was curtailed severely by idiotic coach George Allen, who utilized him mainly for blocking. If you can find highlights of Jerry Smith's acrobatic catches, do so. And compare them to Lynn Swann, for instance, or even Ray Berry. He was an astounding receiver, and, as noted, an incredible blocker as well.

However you measure it, Smith was a dominant all around TE, far better than anyone who ever played the position during his era, and for the next few decades afterwards. I don't care how many "experts" didn't "consider" him great, he was. Statistics are the most important measure of any player's worth. Without them, we are all just dwfs shouting at each other and spouting our own biaised opinions.

And yes, I was aware Hanburger was inducted. It was about time, although you wouldn't know he existed from the coverage on ESPN.

 

[white is right]

Jerry Smith was a very fine player who falls short of HOF caliber. He was never considered the best in the league at his position, his team didn't win a Super Bowl, and you can write the history of the NFL without him. Some of his stats came as a WR.

There is a big backlog of WRs from the 60s and 70s who won't get in. Gary Collins falls in this category.

By the way, did you notice that Chris Hanburger was inducted in the HOF?

Historian was Dante L. considered the better Brown wide out when they played? I wasn't around when they were both playing , thanks!

 

[sport historian]

Historian was Dante L. considered the better Brown wide out when they played? I wasn't around when they were both playing , thanks!

I assume "Dante L." is Dante Lavelli, who played for the Browns from 1946-56 and you want me to compare him to Gary Collins, who played from 1962-71. They are similar players but Lavelli is in the HOF and Collins isn't.

When you compare players from different eras, you have to rank a player with those of his own time. When Lavelli played, there were fewer outstanding wide receivers. This made it easier for him to make the HOF. In addition, the Browns won 3 NFL titles while Lavelli played and 4 AAFC titles.

Gary Collins played on one championship team in 1964. He was MVP in the title game. There are a lot of good receivers from the 60s and 70s who will not make the HOF.

There is a lot of "my guy has numbers as good as so and so who is in the HOF." For example, Collins has supporters who say his stats are about the same as Lynn Swann's. So do a lot of wide receivers who won't make the HOF.

 

[Jack Lambert]

Hanburger was elected? From ESPN's coverage, the only people who I thought got in were "Prime Time," Shannon Sharpe and Marshall Faulk.:crazy: They barely even talked about Richard Dent, from what I saw. Of course, Richter, Hanburger, and Sabol were mentioned even less than Dent was.

 

[white is right]

I don't understand your antipathy towards Jerry Smith. Nor can I fathom how no one else here is lobbying for him. He played WR for one season, other than that his entire career was at TE. Yes, there are tons of white players who are more worthy of induction than lots of the blacks who have been inducted, but no white player has the kind of stats that Smith had in comparison to his peers.

If he was "never considered the best at his position," then the problem lies with those who are permitted to "consider" such things officially. His production was off the charts, when compared to any other TE from the dawn of the NFL until the 2000s.

John Mackey's stats are pathetic, yet he is "considered" great by the "experts." And Charlie Sanders....well, if anyone is interested in why I keep bringing him up, just google his stats. There are literally 100 TEs that are more deserving of being in the HOF. And by the way, he never played in a Super Bowl. Jerry Smith, like Jackie, played in one. Although that's really irrelevant to the question of whether any particular TE belongs in the HOF. I don't believe any TE can will a team to the Super Bowl.

What is even more remarkable about Smith is that his production was curtailed severely by idiotic coach George Allen, who utilized him mainly for blocking. If you can find highlights of Jerry Smith's acrobatic catches, do so. And compare them to Lynn Swann, for instance, or even Ray Berry. He was an astounding receiver, and, as noted, an incredible blocker as well.

However you measure it, Smith was a dominant all around TE, far better than anyone who ever played the position during his era, and for the next few decades afterwards. I don't care how many "experts" didn't "consider" him great, he was. Statistics are the most important measure of any player's worth. Without them, we are all just dwfs shouting at each other and spouting our own biaised opinions.

And yes, I was aware Hanburger was inducted. It was about time, although you wouldn't know he existed from the coverage on ESPN.

Mark Bavaro nearly did in 87'. That season might have well been the greatest ever by tight end. Of course modern tight ends like Gonzalez have benefited from more wide open offenses so their numbers are greater than guys like Smith or Todd Christensen.

 

[sport historian]

Jack Butler and **** Stanfel, two players from the 1950's, will be on the HOF ballot next January as Seniors nominees. Ken Anderson did not make the cut. Jerry Kramer was again on the list but was rejected.

 

[white is right]

Historian missed this but 20 Seniors candidates are on the nomination list for the hall of fame in 2020 and quite a few all decade players still won't be inducted to Canton. On the list Mac Speedie looks to be a lock. Speedie always blamed the late Paul Brown on his omission from Canton.


PS, Ken Willard was snubbed again and his wait will drag on, also how is Roger Craig a seniors nomination? https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...lists-pro-football-hall-fame-centennial-class

 

[sport historian]

Historian missed this but 20 Seniors candidates are on the nomination list for the hall of fame in 2020 and quite a few all decade players still won't be inducted to Canton. On the list Mac Speedie looks to be a lock. Speedie always blamed the late Paul Brown on his omission from Canton.


PS, Ken Willard was snubbed again and his wait will drag on, also how is Roger Craig a seniors nomination? https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...lists-pro-football-hall-fame-centennial-class

There is no case for Ken Willard to be in the HOF. Craig has been considered (and rejected) several times, far more significant player than Willard.

 

[white is right]

There is no case for Ken Willard to be in the HOF. Craig has been considered (and rejected) several times, far more significant player than Willard.

I meant eligible in terms of years since his retirement not on quality of career. Craig IMO deserves at least a look and may be the last NFL player to have played a significant chunk of his career at fullback(less a true seniors candidate from the 70's or earlier).

PS, what about the Horse? Alan Amache was on the all decade team of the 1950's he has an iconic moment in the "Greatest game ever played" his rushing totals for his era was in the Willard range. His career while short was memorable and impactful.

IMO the seniors committee could have a few ten year classes to clear up the back log of players on all decade teams or more borderline recent retirees like Welker may never have more than a bingo type shot of making the hall of fame.