Educating on Caste System Bias.

Don Wassall

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Brewer was a record setting high school tailback in Ohio who wasn't recruited by any I-A schools to play the position. There was an MSM article, now probably lost in cyberspace, about Ohio State's lack of interest in Brewer, wherein the excuse was given by the head coach or someone from the coaching staff, without using explicitly racial terms, that he just wasn't the Buckeyes' "type" of back.
 

Weltner

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Don't be surprised if Beebe gets fired from his job,and never gets hired for any football team,at any level,ever again.
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As far as explaining the Caste System to people, there will always be people who either don't want to admit that it exists, or are just mentally incapable of grasping the concept. The best response from people is, "Oh, thats just an excuse, stop making excuses for the fact that Whites are just slower...". Then I start rifling off names of White players who have been screwed, along with their 40 times.

From here (if the debate even gets this far), I then proceed to ask them where these talented White players are, and why they are not in the NFL. To which I am then given ONE of three answers...

1. Who?

2. Well, they may be fast, but that doesn't mean
that thay're talented as well.

3. Blacks are just better, leave it at that.


Three classic responses that I get from clueless, White idiots every time I try and explain the Caste System to one of them. Sometimes, I don't know why I even bother.
smiley7.gif
Edited by: Ground Fighter
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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White Shogun said:
I can tell you a couple who would not be at the top of my list - Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith. Sanders lost more yards than he gained and Smith had the benefit of one of the best O-lines to ever play the game.

I definitley agree with you on Emmitt Smith. There are definitley whites with more potential than him. He had one of the best O-lines ever. He had Moose Johnson blooking for him. He had a great QB in Aikman and good receiving targets like Irvin, Alvin Harper and the white TE I forget his name to counter his running. Smith was not very fast. His only good skills were vision to find the huge holes, good cutback ability, and good power.

I definitley disagree with you on Sanders though. He lost yards because he was willing to take risks to get the big runs, b/c of his ability. He had bad O-lines and bad passing games to compliment him, and still averaged 5 yd/ carry for his career. This is second to only Jim Brown. He would have had more TD's but they sometimes wrongly took him out in goaline...b/c of his size. He is one of the few RB's to go over 2000 yds. and had 14 100 yard games in a row. I think this was in 1997. There has never been a runner with moves that good even Gale Sayers!

Anyway, I am taking off my top RB list b/c you can't really make a list of that b/c so many white guys are funneled out of that postion and never given a chance...Even some of the most athletic LB's like Keith Brooking would probably make a better HB than some blacks in the league.

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

backrow

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let's not get carried away... Jervey was a terrific physical specimen, but he wasn't a well developed RB! i think Staley had a tremendous upside, both athletically and in football terms, he was a complete player that could only get better and better. i honestly think that Staley would be a perennial 1K/15 TDs rusher throughout his career. EVEN had he stayed with Lions
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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Yeah Jervey definitley had his problems like fumbling, but I think he had great untapped potential. He played scared because he was always in Holmgren's doghouse! He had great ability if developed properly.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

White Shogun

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The problem with Sanders is that he would gain 15 yards on one play, then 1 yard the next and lose 5 yards the play after that. Then he'd rip off another 20-30 yard run when the Lions got the ball back; his average would be 10 yards per carry but the Lions are still punting the ball and losing games because he'd often lose yards on second or third down.

He was a great running back, but is he the guy you want to hand the ball to on 3rd and 3 in a playoff game?

Mike Vick is an electrifying runner too, but again - is he the guy you want quarterbacking your team when the chips are down?

Going around the league right now, I'd pick the following backs over Barry Sanders:

Willie Parker
Rudi Johnson
LaDanian Tomlinson
Larry Johnson
Tiki Barber
Marion Barber
Clinton Portis
Brian Westbrook
Shaun Alexander
Steven Jackson

If Fred Taylor wasn't injured so often, I'd take him over Barry, too.

I'd also choose to start Ahman Green in his younger days, Robert Smith, Jamal Anderson, Terrell Davis, Marshall Faulk, and Curtis Martin, among others, over Sanders. I'd have used Barry as a change of pace back, but not as a regular ball carrier. He was too inconsistent, IMO.
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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I found more links to articles on discrimination and I found a listing of 40 times of WR's from the last two years from a Caucasian WR's of America blog. There was an arguement I found where one poster claimed that white WR's just don't fit in b/c they are not fast enough. Another poster responded the same way I would have w/ a statistical arguement comparing white WR's to black ones.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/columns/story?columnist =mortensen_chris&id=2025109
-about Matt Jones who was called by an opposing college coach "deceptivly fast" -4.37 is apparently deceptively fast if your white!

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635155947,00.html
-on Kevin Curtis who was handtimed in college at 4.2 and blew by Deangelo Hall in an NFL game last year -ran a 4.42 at the combine

On Mike Hass:

http://oregonstate.scout.com/2/509288.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/s ports/1142490735248690.xml&coll=7


-on discrimination against whites

http://www.sportsline.com/spin/story/9600690

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200608 13/PKR0205/608130608/0/theme
http://www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/200 2/10/03/Opinion/An.Open.Letter.To.Paul.Tagliabue-1412739.sht ml?norewrite200609201107&sourcedomain=www.mic

On average combine results (listed in the right column) from the last 2 years
http://www.nfl.com/draft/analysis/expert/brandt/wr
http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2004/04/20/2/

On white RB discrimination:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_19991217 /ai_n13842253
http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/olympics.html
-This article says that the 10 second barrier has been broken just over 200 times in a ten year span.

-All these articles talk about sprinting
http://www.iaaf.org/GLE06/news/Kind=2/newsId=34313.html
http://www.cstv.com/sports/c-track/stories/082304aae.html
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002635.html
-this Jeremy Wariner article states that 40 blacks in history have broken the 10 second mark as of Aug 27 2004. That is not all that dominant in my opinion if the 41st fastest guys in history are white!




Comparing Slow black receivers to slow white ones in the last 2 years I do agree that white WR's are held to a higher standard. Here are the Combine results from Nfldraftscout.com.
Jason Avant 6′1 (mid 4th rd.) only ran at Pro Day: 40 yd- 4.62. Maurice Stovall 6′4 (Late 3rd rd.) -4.57
Mike Williams 6′4 (Early 1st rd.) -4.56 Larry Fitgerald ran 4.63 in college 4.5 Pro Day. Michael Clayton 6′3 (mid 1st) 4.6 Keary Colbert 6′1 (Late 2nd rd) -4.6
Marques Hagans 5′10 (mid 5th rd.)-4.67 (former QB) prospect at either WR or RB. -now thats a joke, when Eric Crouch who was almost as productive as Vick running the ball in college isn't allowed to be a RB only a WR and runs a 4.47 and an elite shuttle time.
-Very slow black WR's from other years Anquan Bolden 6′1 (mid 2nd) -4.72 in college
Ernest Wilford 6′4 (mid 4th rd.) -4.76 -PRO Day, Brandon Lloyd -4.62

-Now the caucasian guys. Mike Hass 6′1 the winner of the Biletnikoff award for the nations most productive DIV I WR (early 6th) -(now Bears practice squad) -4.59, Combine -4.58 and 4.5, PRO Day and had a ridiculously fast cone drill time at PRO Day as well as an above average vertical of 36 1/2 but did not perform well at the combine.
John Standeford One of the top WR's in Pac 10 history 6′3 (undrafted) -4.56

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

Leonardfan

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Just an interesting little thing I notice about all the morons who post on other sports/nfl/draft sites. I think they think if they worship these affletes it makes them cooler and feel some sense of belonging because of their obvious miseduaction. The numbers of people bashing white players like Weddle and Leonard is pretty alarming. They obviously are afraid of great white players and it makes these draft dorks fight even harder. Its pretty pathetic when someone from your own race would rather defend a player based on skin color and deny any athletic ability to a white player. I think its funny how they worship these black players, its nice to come to a place like this. None of us worpship any white players, we just root for them and want them to be sucessful and we do not put them on pedestals like alot of others put affletes on them. Im glad to be able to come to a forum that denounces the myth of black superiority. Just that I would throw that out there.
 

Don Wassall

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Leonardfan said:
Just an interesting little thing I notice about all the morons who post on other sports/nfl/draft sites. I think they think if they worship these affletes it makes them cooler and feel some sense of belonging because of their obvious miseduaction. The numbers of people bashing white players like Weddle and Leonard is pretty alarming. They obviously are afraid of great white players and it makes these draft dorks fight even harder. Its pretty pathetic when someone from your own race would rather defend a player based on skin color and deny any athletic ability to a white player. I think its funny how they worship these black players, its nice to come to a place like this. None of us worpship any white players, we just root for them and want them to be sucessful and we do not put them on pedestals like alot of others put affletes on them. Im glad to be able to come to a forum that denounces the myth of black superiority. Just that I would throw that out there.


That's very well said. Far from being "extreme," we're quite level-headed and fair-minded here. To be an aware American these days, no matter what your background, is to not "worship" anything or anyone, nor to accept anything from the media at face value. Scrape away the media's glitz and glamour and you find a hollow center. Personally, my concern is howwe go about first liberating and then rebuildingthis failed multicultural, multiracial imperial experiment in mindless deracinated consumerism. Edited by: Don Wassall
 

Weltner

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ToughJ.Riggins said:
I found another great article from the Chicago Sun Times. This appears to be a great paper! They appear willing to report taboo subjects such as white athlete discrimination, if there is strong evidence.


Questions continue to lurk under surface of recruiting
Chicago Sun-Times, Dec 17, 1999 by Taylor Bell

I'm not saying the only reason the two best running backs in the Chicago area aren't being recruited by major colleges is because they are white.

But you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who saw the Class 6A championship game that Naperville Central's Ryan Clifford hasn't got the moves, quickness and toughness to play in Division I.

Until Clifford took off like a rocket, scoring a state-record 51 touchdowns, most observers targeted Hinsdale Central's Mike Mangan as the leading ball-carrier in the state.

Neither of them is drawing much interest from big-time recruiters. Both have been invited to visit Ball State. Maryland is considering Mangan. Illinois dropped Clifford from its shopping list, but Indiana made a last-minute call and invited him to visit this weekend.

Are they too slow, too small or too white? It is a taboo subject among college coaches. Even high school coaches don't want to talk about skin tones. It reminds of 20 to 25 years ago, when black quarterbacks were a controversial issue in college and professional football.
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"Remember when no one wanted to recruit or sign a black quarterback?" recruiting analyst Tom Lemming said. "And if they did, he was shifted to cornerback or wide receiver. Now we have the same problem with extremely productive white running backs.

"The colleges won't talk about it, like black quarterbacks weren't talked about. But it still goes on. Recruiters claim white running backs aren't explosive enough or fast enough. But Clifford has what it takes. Recruiters say they love him but they can't get final approval."

Naperville Central coach Joe Bunge doesn't think it is a racial issue. The area's other top running backs, Schaumburg's Jason Hawkins and Barrington's Dan Pohlman, are white. Pohlman chose Northwestern over Illinois. Hawkins picked Northern Illinois. After rushing for nearly 3,000 yards, he could have switched to a Big Ten school but elected to honor his commitment to NIU.

"White isn't an issue. Those days are past," Bunge said. "I think Ryan can play in the Big Ten. Guys his size are playing in the NFL. (Georgia Tech quarterback) Joe Hamilton isn't big, but he was a finalist for the Heisman Trophy. There are many cases where kids with great heart are successful.

"I'm disappointed in the recruiting process. Here is a kid who has done things that no one else in state history has accomplished, but college coaches are reluctant to offer a scholarship. Are they saying that Ryan can't do something or play somewhere to make a team better?"

Hinsdale Central coach Ken Schreiner is baffled by lack of interest in Mangan. He understands the recruiting process is an inexact science, that schools have certain needs, that some athletes are priorities and some aren't.

"We're talking about two of the top backs in the state, including a kid (Clifford) who is the poster boy for high school football in Illinois this year," he said. "I would think there are colleges that would show more interest than none at all. Mangan brings as much or more to the table than others we have had who are succeeding in Division I. I know how hard kids work to put themselves in position to be considered for a scholarship. And I know hard work doesn't guarantee success. But you would think Clifford and Mangan would command more consideration on their merits."

Lemming said Mike Alstott (Purdue), who was offered only one scholarship as a Joliet Catholic senior, Mark Edwards (Notre Dame) and Tim Dwight (Iowa) were exceptions to the stereotype. But Ohio's 1998 Player of the Year, running back Ryan Brewer, a 5-9, 180- pounder, received no offers from Big Ten or Mid-American schools. He played for Lou Holtz at South Carolina as a freshman.

"I understand college football is a multimillion-dollar business and coaches have jobs on the line and don't want to stick their necks out," Bunge said. "They are looking for a prototype player. But there is more to the game than size. The will to win, emotion and spirit count for something. Spirit is more important than size, strength and speed."

Copyright 1999
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.



And this written SEVEN years ago?And there's been more stories like this.And has anything improved for us?
 

Weltner

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White Shogun said:
The problem with Sanders is that he would gain 15 yards on one play, then 1 yard the next and lose 5 yards the play after that. Then he'd rip off another 20-30 yard run when the Lions got the ball back; his average would be 10 yards per carry but the Lions are still punting the ball and losing games because he'd often lose yards on second or third down.

He was a great running back, but is he the guy you want to hand the ball to on 3rd and 3 in a playoff game?

Mike Vick is an electrifying runner too, but again - is he the guy you want quarterbacking your team when the chips are down?

Going around the league right now, I'd pick the following backs over Barry Sanders:

Willie Parker
Rudi Johnson
LaDanian Tomlinson
Larry Johnson
Tiki Barber
Marion Barber
Clinton Portis
Brian Westbrook
Shaun Alexander
Steven Jackson

If Fred Taylor wasn't injured so often, I'd take him over Barry, too.

I'd also choose to start Ahman Green in his younger days, Robert Smith, Jamal Anderson, Terrell Davis, Marshall Faulk, and Curtis Martin, among others, over Sanders. I'd have used Barry as a change of pace back, but not as a regular ball carrier. He was too inconsistent, IMO.



Damn right Sandres was overrated.All you need to do is look at all of his playoff game stats to see how truly overrated he was.He could put up the numbers during a regular season game,but in the games that were important,he all but disappeared.
 
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