Educating on Caste System Bias.

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I think the biggest reason the caste system isn't breaking down is b/c of the strong perception of blacks that they are much better athletes than whites. Black athletes feel insulted if a white starts in front of them at a speed postion, whether it's RB, WR or CB.

Even though there are less blacks in Canada, I live in the Toronto area and there are a fair number of blacks here. I have had a few incounters with a couple blacks from my neighborhood and one at work talking about sports. There is one black I work with, who I hang out with sometimes, who I consider a friend. We had a conversation about a year ago and discussed Matt Jones, he thought Matt Jones is only fast for a white guy! I debated him on this. In further debate he also said that he thought Mike Alstott is overrated b/c he's the only white who can run the ball and produce!

I mentioned to him players such as Luke Staley the 2001 Doak Award winner and players with Freak athleticism like
Travis Jervey. I mentioned the top boxers in the world right now in the heavier weight classes are white, and that whites are the top performers in the 400 meters right now, and have consistantly been doing well in the 200 meters and triple jump, and have been dominant in the high jump. I told him the only two events in short track that whites haven't been doing well in is the 100 meter and long jump!...and even in the 100 meters as of 2003, only 39 blacks had ran sub 10 100's and that two whites, in history, have run a 10 flat.

At the beginning of the conversation we were debating back and forth, but then I started monopolizing a bit. So I jokingly said "I guess I'm ranting a bit!"
He told me "that's alright this is interesting stuff...you know alot about this." He had heard of Jeremy Wariner, and knew that Brent Barry won an NBA slam dunk contest, but appeared to feel they are just extreme anomolies of the white race...He asked me..."if whites are good enough to start at RB or CB, than why don't NFL coaches play them? The coach wants to put his team in the best position to win."

I told him my feeling is that since there is such a strong stereotype out there that whites aren't fast enough, and can't jump b/c of movies like "White men Can't Jump", that I felt many black athletes would feel very insulted if a white started in front of them at HB, CB or WR...I said "it's easier for a coach to bench a white tail back when the other 3 or 4 on the team
are black than cause a stir. A player with a Keshawn Johnson personality might cause a problem for a coach by not accepting being a second stringer to a white player!" I told him whites get funneled out of positions like TB, after H.S, and are converted to postions like LB that Div 1 will give them a chance at a schoolarship for and that even Tony Dungy has eluded to this.

The only reason I was able to have a debate like this with him is because we're friends, and he is an educated black with a college degree. He's the only black person I have ever had the gumption to tell my stance on this issue. The conversation ended with him asking me "Then what percentage of starting NFL tailbacks should be white? I told him my estimate is about 30-35%. He said "I don't know about that, but I think you may have a point on this issue!"

Then a couple weeks later when we were at
lunch at work, he told me that he had looked some of the things I was telling him about track and Luke Staley winning the Doak Award up on the internet, b/c he thought I may have been wrong on these facts! He told me "You must really like to cheer for white athletes...knowing this much about them." I told him "I do a little bit."
I then asked him: I bet you cheer for black athletes, and he admitted that he cheers for black quarterbacks and is a huge fan of Michael Vick! We both had a good laugh about this.

So the question is; where do we go from here? I think the only way the caste system will fall is if athletes like Andrew Rock, who I have read was not given a schoolarship to any of his top college choices for track, speaks out on this issue! The guy has often been placing second in the whole United States in the 400 meters, and was clearly discriminated against. White athletes, who have clearly been discriminated against are going to have to start gripping about their circumstance!
And if the discrimination continues there should be lawsuits filed. This my friends is the only way the Caste
System will fall!
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[Bunnyman]

Good points. Keep educating people. I try to do the same -- but usualy in a cautious way.

 

[mark b.]

I've had numerous discussions with blacks about whites not getting to play certain positions and have had mixed results. Usually the better educated ones are more likely to see your point. Unless white athletes who have been victims of the caste system are willing to speak out in a way that draws national attention then all of this will be in vain, and that will be difficult considering the medias love affair with the black athlete. It makes them feel better about past injustices. I call this a form of mental reparations. Whites have been in a guilt mode for the last 40 years, and athletic events which blacks star in make them feel better.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Here are some links about discrimination...I have more on my other computer but it isn't working right now.

http://www.vdare.com/blog/091704_blog.htm [url]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060305 /ai_n16189406[/url]<a href="http://http://sil.mcmaster.ca/Archive/050120/sports/050120sportslumsden2.html" target="_blank">
http://sil.mcmaster.ca/Archive/050120/sports/050120sportslum sden2.html</a>

The links didn't work so try pasteing.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[REDNOSE]

I like Don Beebe even more after reading the second article about whites not being given a fair shake. He hits the nail on the head saying that he wasn't even taken serious when he ran a 4.2 forty at the combine. By the way, you rarely hear his name along with the likes of neon deon sanders when the combine records are being spoken about. I wonder why?

 

[Sark6354201]

Here are some links about discrimination...I have more on my other computer but it isn't working right now.

http://www.vdare.com/blog/091704_blog.htm [url]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060305 /ai_n16189406[/url]<a href="http://http://sil.mcmaster.ca/Archive/050120/sports/050120sportslumsden2.html" target="_blank">
http://sil.mcmaster.ca/Archive/050120/sports/050120sportslum sden2.html</a>

The links didn't work so try pasteing.

http is in the url twice, that's why they aren't working.

 

[jcolec02]

can you post those articles on this board???

 

[Leonardfan]

Here is an educational piece for those believers in the caste

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trb23Rz6BpQEdited by: Leonardfan

 

[backrow]

great stuff Leoanrdfan... poor Cowboys

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

here's the interview with Beebe... it also touches on Tommy Z's career. as i've mentioned before, he was a phenomenal high school corner, and Beebe talks about it a bit. he doesn't go as far as he could, but he definitely addresses the issue straight up...

Some gray in black-white issue</font>
Chicago Sun-Times, Mar 5, 2006
by Taylor Bell

Several weeks ago, a college recruiter called Aurora Christian coach Don Beebe to inquire about running back Matt Russell.

"Is he black or white?" the recruiter asked.

Russell is white. He is a 5-10, 184-pounder with 4.59-second speed in the 40-yard dash who has virtually no chance of scooting around a sizable barrier that saw only one white tailback starting in Division I and none in the NFL during the 2005 season.

"I know how it feels," said Beebe, a 1983 Kaneland graduate, who played in the NFL for nine seasons. "I was a white kid from a small school, and I had to prove I could play with the big boys. I was a wide receiver who had to take a long route to the NFL. I had to prove myself.

"We live in a society where black athletes definitely are going to get the better look. I tell scouts: `Look at the numbers. Look at the 10- or 40-yard dash. Look at agility, vision in the open field. Look at the tape. Evaluate a kid not by the color of his skin but by his talent.' That's what I said about Russell. What does color matter?"

Russell is expected to sign with Grand Valley State in Allendale, Mich., the top-rated Division II program in the nation, in the next few days. It was the only school to offer him a full scholarship.

"I'm disappointed that he isn't going to a Division I school," Beebe said. "There is no question in my mind that he has the kind of talent to play tailback or safety in Division I. It is a sad situation, like the black man in society. We've come a long way since the 1950s in society and athletics, but we still have a long way to go."

There is a taboo in football recruiting, a subject college coaches don't dare to discuss in public. It is a hush-hush issue among more than a few Chicago-area coaches, who publicly are reluctant to accuse college recruiters of racism but privately question why white running backs, wide receivers and defensive backs aren't being sought by Division I programs.

It's a black-and white issue, but it isn't about racism; it's about winning and perception. Who can run faster? Who is more athletic? Who is smart enough to play quarterback? Which tailback is most explosive? Who can cover a wide receiver or outrun a cornerback?

"Loose hips and fast-twitch muscles are two things that college coaches have told me for years when they bring up the names of white kids who are trying to play tailback, wide receiver or cornerback," recruiting analyst Tom Lemming said.

Those are the buzzwords that were bandied about at the NFL combine last week in Indianapolis. Loose hips refer to an athlete's flexibility, his ability to turn on a dime. Fast-twitch muscles refer to an athlete's burst, his ability to react more quickly.

"It all comes down from the NFL," Lemming said. "How many white cornerbacks are playing in the NFL? Jason Sehorn was one. Over the last 30 years, coaches have been raised to think white kids can't play the skill positions. The same prejudice that once kept black quarterbacks out of the NFL is keeping white tailbacks, wide receivers and defensive backs out of the league."

For years, African Americans weren't perceived to be smart enough to play quarterback in college or the NFL. But Doug Williams forever changed that jaded philosophy when he led the Washington Redskins to the Super Bowl championship in 1988. But the misperception remains that white players aren't physically equipped to play the other skill positions.

Former Buffalo Grove star Tom Zbikowski, the Sun-Times Player of the Year in 2002, was dubbed "too slow," even though he was timed in 4.3 seconds for 40 yards. Recruited to Notre Dame by then-coach Tyrone Willingham, Zbikowski spent only three days at cornerback before being switched to safety "because whites aren't supposed to be fast enough or athletic enough to play cornerback."

"If I had been timed in 4.4 or 4.5, the NFL scouts never would have looked at me," Beebe said. "But when you set a record at the combine [Beebe and Deion Sanders were timed in 4.2], it opened up a lot of eyes. Even then, some scouts still were skeptical. After three years in the NFL, after playing in the Super Bowl [with the Buffalo Bills], media people from ESPN and big-city newspapers asked if I had black ancestors."

Beebe was a 5-10, 165-pound wide receiver at Kaneland. In high school, he never was timed for 40 yards. Western Illinois was the only school to offer him a full scholarship; Northern Illinois offered him a half-ride. He sat out for three years, then enrolled at little-known Chadron State in Nebraska.

"When I ran 4.2 at the combine, no one believed it," Beebe said. "Twenty-one teams sent scouts to Chadron State to re-time me. They couldn't believe that a white kid could be so fast. Today, we believe blacks are dominant to whites in sports. But I believe whites can play at any level."

Zbikowski is trying to disprove the myth, as former Joliet Catholic star Mike Alstott once did. As a high school senior, the 6- 2, 200-pound running back was hailed as the Sun-Times Player of the Year. But he was recruited by only one college, Purdue. Later, he became an All-Pro fullback in the NFL.

"Tommy got a lot of offers as an athlete, but colleges said he'd be a safety, not a cornerback, because he wasn't fast enough or his hips weren't loose enough," said Ed Zbikowski, Tom father.

"There is no question that Zbikowski could have played cornerback," Beebe said. "But the perception is whites can't play cornerback or tailback. Jason Sehorn proved he could play cornerback in the NFL. If there was one, there are others. But it won't change unless coaches are unafraid to play whites at skill positions."

Edited by: Jimmy Chitwood

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Thats the best mainstream article I have read yet. More, and I mean a lot more people are going to have to raise this issue and then confront the media and coaches about it.

 

[pt.guard2]

Very interesting articles.

I can state from experience that there is a definite ingrained perception that a black player should be superior at the "speed positions" in football, from both black and white players and coaches.

I played wide receiver in an inner city HS and whenever I beat some DB deep it was a much bigger deal because I am white. It wasn't as if I couldn't run.....I had pretty good speed and was faster than a lot of DB's, but it was a much bigger deal for a black DB to get beat by a white receiver. Although there was a lot of trash talk I was used to it by HS and the added pressure of not getting beat by a white guy actually helped me to get open, since they were pressing so hard that a double move usually was all it took to get free.

I also played pt. guard in HS, but did not get the same response when I outplayed someone, since there was the impression that this was a position that white kids could play...and we had some players in the recent past like Stockton, Price and now of course Nash and Hingrich to prove that point.

 

[Alpha Male]

You think an article like this would get some exposure on ESPN with a player like Don Beebe backing it up. Nope, the media wants none of it!

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

and here's the bottom article. it's about Canadian phenom Jesse Lumsden... i really like the way the article refuses to say black, and instead always says "minorities." give me a break!

Canadian athlete tries to dispell football stereotypes</font>
Chris Black

So we all know now that Jesse Lumsden is a legit pro prospect.

Scouts and coaches admittedly were caught off-guard by his performance at last week's East West Shrine game. In fact, Colin Lindsay at the Great Blue North Draft Report (gbnreport.com) said in his recap of the week, "the most intriguing back in San Francisco was Jesse Lumsden of McMaster, one of two players from Canadian universities. Lumsden showed excellent patience and vision, along with exceptional upfield acceleration once he found the seam."

In fact, Lindsay and his staff had Lumsden rated as the second-best performer out of 27 skill position players (behind only Louisville quarterback Stefan Lefors, who threw three touchdown passes), and the seventh-best out of 51 total offensive players.

But what many people may not know about Lumsden's week in San Francisco is that he's fighting an uphill battle in more than one respect. While his efforts to rise above the stereotypes of a Canadian football player are well documented, he's also trying to break racial prejudices as well.

A quick look at NCAA and NFL rosters the past couple seasons show some tough numbers for Lumsden to try and beat. In 2003, 98 per cent of running backs were minorities. In 2004, there were 117 schools in division I-A football, and two had a starting white running back.

A current CIS player who is a minority has friends attending schools in the U.S. and said that he thinks the cold shoulder Lumsden received in San Francisco was about more than just coming from Canada.

"Those guys are fighting for their livelihood down there, and to them, Jesse is an anomaly," the player said. "A white guy trying to break through at running back or wide receiver is trying to break moulds that they have for people. It's a lot like black quarterbacks a few years back.

"I just wonder if he was an offensive lineman instead who was a physical freak, like 6'7", 320 pounds, just made for the position the same way Jesse is made for running back. Would there be the same type of controversy? I don't think so, because seeing a white guy on the offensive line isn't so different."

Back in September 2004, Orlando Sentinel writers Chris Harry and Charles Robinson put together an extensive feature looking at the dominance of minorities at the running back position. The insightful piece looked at everything from genetics to youth environment to prejudicial scouts and coaches.

Tony Dungy, head coach of the Indianapolis Colts, told the writers that he believes younger players are "funneled" to positions based on race.

"You've got guys in high school, white players, who are discouraged from being wide receivers, defensive backs or running backsâ€â€￾I think we have that," Dungy said. "It's 'this position is a black position or white position.' I definitely believe they are channeled early on."

Doug Williams, the first black quarterback to play in a Super Bowl back in 1988, told The Sentinel that colour is just a by-product of the most important factor for a running back: speed.

"A lot of it boils down to athletic ability," Williams said. "If you have a kid who's been productive who's a black running back and he's running a 4.8 [in the 40-yard dash], and you have a white kid who's been productive who's running a 4.5, make no mistake, the 4.5 is going to be the kid getting the opportunity."

However, the Sil's source in the CIS said that the white kid Williams mentions who's running the 4.5 usually won't last at running back by the time his college career is done.

"You look at a guy Jesse's size with his speed, if he would have went down south, they would have converted him to linebacker or safety in his freshman year," the player says.

Or fullback, NFL fullback Mike Alstott told The Sentinel. "No one was interested in me playing tailback," Alstott says of his recruitment period, when he was 6'0", and 205 pounds.

The simple fact though is that these young players, whether entering the college or pro ranks, are willing to do anything to achieve their dream, and don't sit back and think about stereotypes or prejudices when they're told to switch positions.

"I just question whether Jesse would have caught the same amount of flack down there in San Fran if his name was Jamaal Lumsden," the CIS player asked.

Edited by: Jimmy Chitwood

 

[jcolec02]

amazing that beebe didnt flinch and said that whites could play "AT ANY LEVEL"...very incouraging stuff...

 

[Bart]

Here is an educational piece for those believers in the caste

Jack Lambert was something else, no doubt about it.Found another one about Dick Butkus, but he is featured for only 2 - 1/2 minutes. He just ran over and smothered people.He seems like a cross between a gorilla and a grizzly bear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Naju8fxyHgEdited by: Bart

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Chris Harry and Charles Robinson of the Orlando Sentinel write in an article entitled "Endangered Species:"

Since Craig James ran for 1,227 yards and was voted to the Pro Bowl in 1985, 95 running backs have combined for 235 1,000-yard rushing performances over those 18 years. None has been white.

While minorities make up more than 70 percent of the NFL, running back is even more exclusive. In 2003, 98 percent of the NFL's running backs were minorities. The NFL kicked off the 2004 season Thursday night, but today marks the traditional opening weekend, and none of the 32 teams has a white tailback as a first- or second-teamer...

A white running back hasn't led the NFL in rushing since Green Bay's Jim Taylor ran for 1,474 yards in 1962 or been drafted in the first round since Penn State's John Cappelletti was chosen 11th overall by the Rams in 1974.

There are 117 colleges playing Division I-A football in 2004, and none was scheduled to start a white tailback this weekend. Two schools -- Nevada, with Chance Kretschmer, and UAB, with Dan Burks -- have starting white tailbacks who are injured. Kretschmer, who rushed for 1,732 yards and 15 touchdowns as a freshman in 2001, received no scholarship offers and attended Nevada as a walk-on. Burks was a star high school player in Birmingham who was thought to be too slow to play for any "major" school...

A second article, also posted on Jon Entine's site, by this brave pair called "THE BLACK QB COMPARISON: Getting people to talk is problematic" documents that while it's hard to get the so-called experts to shut up about the supposed shortage of black quarterbacks, almost nobody wanted to talk on the record about why blacks 100% monopolize the glamorous tailback position in the NFL. (Tailback is the second most glamorous position after only quarterback. On the other hand, tailbacks seem to get chewed up and spit out faster, with shorter periods of brilliance than at other positions.)

Bobby Bowden of Florida State, however, is so old and successful that he spoke freely:

When Florida State Coach Bobby Bowden was asked to explain the decline of the white running back, he laughed so hard, he actually grabbed on to the reporter posing the question...

"You go with the best, and it just happens to be there are more minority tailbacks than there are non-minority," says Bowden, who has spent nearly 50 years in the college ranks. "Why? I don't know. There's just more of them. They run better, jump higher.

"God has made every man different. He's even made our races different. There are some races that are smaller than others. There are some races that are taller than others. There are some races, it seems like they have more athletic ability than others. It just seems they [minority tailbacks] have more talent as runners than my race. I think that has something to do with heredity, you know?"

Certainly, but the interesting question here is not whether blacks have more natural potential on average than whites at tailback (that's obvious), but whether genetic differences fully account for the huge gap seen in the NFL.

I think it's likely that stereotyping against white tailbacks raises the black percentage at the position from, say, 90% or 95% to 100%. It's easy to picture, say, star Chicago Bears linebacker Brian Urlacher as a tailback knocking over would-be tacklers as he powers into the end zone. But, somebody probably told him somewhere along the way that he'd have a better chance to make it to the NFL as a linebacker, and he's certainly done that. The Caste Football website makes the point that white football players at black positions like tailback and cornerback are discriminated against.

When you see a white walk-on rush for 1,732 yards as a freshman, like Kretschmer did, you've got to figure that racial prejudice played a role in his not getting any scholarship offers. (Just like it did in the case of white 400m sprinter Andrew Rock, who won a gold medal as one of the six members of the US 4x400m relay team, but ran for a Div. III college because nobody would give him a scholarship. White 400m gold medalist Jeremy Wariner did get a scholarship to Baylor -- when you are that fast, your race can't slow you down.)

I think that the evidence for anti-white prejudice is true to a certain extent, but it can also be rational, both on the part of both coaches who have seen so many whites who looked great at all-white high schools not measure up in college, and on the part of individual white athletes who choose not to lower their chances for future success by trying to prove a particular stereotype wrong, and thus decide to play safety or quarterback or tight end or another position where whites are less uncommon.

My 1996 National Review cover story "How Jackie Robinson Desegregated America" is an in-depth depiction of how the free market makes racial discrimination unprofitable. (It was praised by Nobel Laureate economist Gary Becker.) It's an article of faith among economists that racial discrimination is irrational.

Yet, I think economists should also consider the evidence that rational profit-maximizing can lead to racial discrimination in cases like this where the genetic gap between the races is very big, but not quite as huge as it winds up looking in the NFL.

Unfortunately, economists almost universally shy away from thinking about genetic differences, so they tend to be complete nonstarters on issues like this. Can anybody think of any economist who has ever contributed anything interesting on the topic of biological racial differences?Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[White Shogun]

Riggins... what part of that post did you write and what part was quoted from the Orlando Sentinel and Entine's articles? Please use the quote feature. I have no desire to reread the Sentinel or Entine articles *again* while mining the post for your contribution to the thread.

Thanks.

 

[jaxvid]

The article posted by Riggins was written by Steve Sailer, as it references Sailers article about Jackie Robinson. Most of it has been posted here before also.

The Beebe article is great, exactly what we have been saying here for years. A lot of people wouldn't deny it they would just say "so what" which is just as bad.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Riggins... what part of that post did you write and what part was quoted from the Orlando Sentinel and Entine's articles? Please use the quote feature. I have no desire to reread the Sentinel or Entine articles *again* while mining the post for your contribution to the thread.

Thanks.

I worked hard to locate all three of those articles links (the links didn't work...read above thats why they were reposted), and didn't know that the last one wasn't posted by others b/c it had already been discussed! I didn't write any of it, it was all a VDare blog I found. In fact, If you want my analysis (although somehow, I doubt you care White Shogun) I would say that the percentage of black tailbacks in the NFL without a caste system would be slightly above 50%. Whites should make up about 35% or so, the other 10-15% would be Hispanic, mixed race or other, in my opinion w/o a caste system.

Interestingly, Hispanics are now the largest minority group , I think they are around 13-14% of the U.S population. Blacks are just above 12% of the U.S population. However, many Hispanics are part Native American and have smaller body frames. I think they are less likely percentage wise to have Running Back talent than whites. This applies, even more so w/ East Asians. I also think that 70-80% of FBs should be white. The best power runners are white in my observations, and as we've all discussed here the FB is underutilized.

If I honestly thought that only 5% of NFL tailbacks should be white, it wouldn't bother me enough to be here. The caste system is very strong! . Whites are talented enough to not only make an NFL roster as HBs, CBs or WRs but could be pro-bowlers. There are only two areas where whites have a slight disadvantage in my opinion and that is in pure speed and agility. Don Bebee, in my opinion, had the quickest burst (I bet he could have been the sole record holder over 10 yards) of any player to ever play in the NFL, even Deion!Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I found another great article from the Chicago Sun Times. This appears to be a great paper! They appear willing to report taboo subjects such as white athlete discrimination, if there is strong evidence.


Questions continue to lurk under surface of recruiting
Chicago Sun-Times, Dec 17, 1999 by Taylor Bell

I'm not saying the only reason the two best running backs in the Chicago area aren't being recruited by major colleges is because they are white.

But you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who saw the Class 6A championship game that Naperville Central's Ryan Clifford hasn't got the moves, quickness and toughness to play in Division I.

Until Clifford took off like a rocket, scoring a state-record 51 touchdowns, most observers targeted Hinsdale Central's Mike Mangan as the leading ball-carrier in the state.

Neither of them is drawing much interest from big-time recruiters. Both have been invited to visit Ball State. Maryland is considering Mangan. Illinois dropped Clifford from its shopping list, but Indiana made a last-minute call and invited him to visit this weekend.

Are they too slow, too small or too white? It is a taboo subject among college coaches. Even high school coaches don't want to talk about skin tones. It reminds of 20 to 25 years ago, when black quarterbacks were a controversial issue in college and professional football.
Advertisement

"Remember when no one wanted to recruit or sign a black quarterback?" recruiting analyst Tom Lemming said. "And if they did, he was shifted to cornerback or wide receiver. Now we have the same problem with extremely productive white running backs.

"The colleges won't talk about it, like black quarterbacks weren't talked about. But it still goes on. Recruiters claim white running backs aren't explosive enough or fast enough. But Clifford has what it takes. Recruiters say they love him but they can't get final approval."

Naperville Central coach Joe Bunge doesn't think it is a racial issue. The area's other top running backs, Schaumburg's Jason Hawkins and Barrington's Dan Pohlman, are white. Pohlman chose Northwestern over Illinois. Hawkins picked Northern Illinois. After rushing for nearly 3,000 yards, he could have switched to a Big Ten school but elected to honor his commitment to NIU.

"White isn't an issue. Those days are past," Bunge said. "I think Ryan can play in the Big Ten. Guys his size are playing in the NFL. (Georgia Tech quarterback) Joe Hamilton isn't big, but he was a finalist for the Heisman Trophy. There are many cases where kids with great heart are successful.

"I'm disappointed in the recruiting process. Here is a kid who has done things that no one else in state history has accomplished, but college coaches are reluctant to offer a scholarship. Are they saying that Ryan can't do something or play somewhere to make a team better?"

Hinsdale Central coach Ken Schreiner is baffled by lack of interest in Mangan. He understands the recruiting process is an inexact science, that schools have certain needs, that some athletes are priorities and some aren't.

"We're talking about two of the top backs in the state, including a kid (Clifford) who is the poster boy for high school football in Illinois this year," he said. "I would think there are colleges that would show more interest than none at all. Mangan brings as much or more to the table than others we have had who are succeeding in Division I. I know how hard kids work to put themselves in position to be considered for a scholarship. And I know hard work doesn't guarantee success. But you would think Clifford and Mangan would command more consideration on their merits."

Lemming said Mike Alstott (Purdue), who was offered only one scholarship as a Joliet Catholic senior, Mark Edwards (Notre Dame) and Tim Dwight (Iowa) were exceptions to the stereotype. But Ohio's 1998 Player of the Year, running back Ryan Brewer, a 5-9, 180- pounder, received no offers from Big Ten or Mid-American schools. He played for Lou Holtz at South Carolina as a freshman.

"I understand college football is a multimillion-dollar business and coaches have jobs on the line and don't want to stick their necks out," Bunge said. "They are looking for a prototype player. But there is more to the game than size. The will to win, emotion and spirit count for something. Spirit is more important than size, strength and speed."

Copyright 1999
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[White Shogun]

I am interested in what you have to say, Riggins. I just may not agree with you all the time.

Why do you believe that blacks would still dominate the tailback position if there was no caste system? Like you said, the black population is only about 12% (low end), so why should we expect that they would make up more than even 20% at the most? It seems to me that you believe in some sort of black athletic superiority- just less of it. There may be some small variance by position, e.g more white linemen, but I personally do not believe that blacks are so superior at running with the football that they would still dominate more than 1/2 the tailback positions in the NFL. In fact, I see no reason why whites could not dominate running back the same way blacks do now under the caste system. Why shouldn't they? It isn't the 100 meters, after all.

As for the post I questioned earlier - I wasn't able to read the links and didn't know the post quoted was from Sailer's blog. Sailer's name wasn't mentioned in the post I was asking about.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I am interested in what you have to say, Riggins. I just may not agree with you all the time.

Why do you believe that blacks would still dominate the tailback position if there was no caste system? Like you said, the black population is only about 12% (low end), so why should we expect that they would make up more than even 20% at the most? It seems to me that you believe in some sort of black athletic superiority- just less of it. There may be some small variance by position, e.g more white linemen, but I personally do not believe that blacks are so superior at running with the football that they would still dominate more than 1/2 the tailback positions in the NFL.

Well, I'm glad you are interested in what I have to say ,thanks for the compliment

..I'm sure I have agrivated some with my habit of ranting...And even worse, I sometimes rant buzzed on this forum, which makes me sound less intelligent than I am, lol.

As far as me believing in black athletic superiority at HB, I only believe they have a slight advantage in agility and speed. I think Whites have a slight edge in power, cognitive recognition, and maybe vision. So maybe I should consider what you are saying as far as it not being a 100 meter dash.

Unfortuanatley though, I have yet to see a white runner with the potential of fairly recent black stars such as Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders or probably even Tomlinson (Jim Brown I have seen little film of). These are the rare talents that fans remember. Even Luke Staley and Jervey I don't think were quite at that level.

Maybe though, eventually, we will see a white runner who is a blend of Jervey and Alstott. This could be just as good as Barry Sanders in it's own way! Bo Jackson was kind of just that though, he was more of a "freak athlete" than Jervey and almost as powerful as Alstott. The guy had more potential than any RB who ever played the game!

The NFL would probably still find a way of making this white Jervey/Alstott blend a running FB though! His yard per carry would probably go down to the low 4's from having to share carries, being used in 3rd and short and goaline specialty, with no FB to help him...and fans would be too stupid to get it! He would probably still end his career with less than 10,000 yards rushing.

And I'm not saying Alstott is soley a power runner. He has very good quickness, and good agility for a big man. The guy is below average in the speed department though for a runner. This keeps his potential below the elite status of the 3 black stars I mentioned.

And I also know, that Barry Sanders was only fast, not super fast. I saw him get caught from behind a couple times by corners on very long runs. However, his elite quickness, agility, vision, balance, lack of fumbling, and good leg drive for a small man, makes his talent off the charts. He also was good at hiding behind his O-line b/c of his small stature! and would have annialated Emmitt Smith's career stats if he played in the same situation!

Shogun, I was interested in what your list of the top RB's of all time is...based on potential. If you'de care to tell me I'd be interested!

 

[White Shogun]

You don't see the white Bo Jackons or Barry Sanders or LaDanian Tomlinsons or whomever because those guys aren't allowed to play the position. White men are rarely ever given the opportunity at all, even when they're standouts in college. I'd like to see some of them get the same benefit of the doubt like the black players do. Even Ron Dayne is still totin' the rock, but where are all those white running backs listed in your sig?

Think of all the great white running backs in high school who are slotted to receiver or safety or linebacker because they can't get a scholarship to run the ball. Think of all the lost potential caused by the slotting that starts in Pop Warner and goes all the way to the pros. Given the numbers and white interest in football, there is no way that our race could not produce great running backs like Tomlinson or Jackson, given the opportunity.

I haven't put together a list of top RB's of all time, but I can tell you a couple who would not be at the top of my list - Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith. Sanders lost more yards than he gained and Smith had the benefit of one of the best O-lines to ever play the game.

 

[Kaptain]

A reference to Ryan Brewer in the article! I've written on him before because his phenomenal performance in the one game he was allowed to start at RB was a thing of beauty. Brewer got his chance because all his criminal teammates got suspended for criminal activity before the bowl game. Ryan was I believe a little used junior WR. They switched him to RB for that one game out of absolute necessity. He electified the crowd with something like well over a 100 yards rushing and 3 TDs. His black opponents were so angry that after his last two TD's he was hit in the endzone incredibly late (several seconds late) - small scuffles ensued both times. Just watching how much the fans loved a dominant white RB and just how much black players hated him was quite a paradox to watch.