Caste Free WR Draft Projections

[Don Wassall]

all i need to know about Andy Brodell is to look at what he did in the Alamo Bowl in '06 against a Texas secondary with 4 future NFL defensive backs.

6 catches, 159 yards, and 2 touchdowns.

if he's fully recovered from his hamstring injury, i'd take him in a heartbeat.

oh, he can return punts, too. listen to the announcer burst, "HE CAN FLY!"

Brodell is a beast when healthy.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Riggins:

On the list you opened the thread with, who is black and who is white?

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Another long post, but I must clarify some things about these somewhat depressing rankings and this is a thread I started afterall.

Unfortunatley only 3 on my top 20 list currently are white (Collie, Hartline and Swift). However, I may jump Kole Heckendorf (my number 2 small schooler) up onto the list as number 19 or 20, when I hear more about him from his Pro-day. I have only watched Kole once on t.v, I don't really know enough about him as a small school prospect yet (mostly just what I've read; I have gotten a mixed sense of his route running from reports, but he is very fast with good hands and a burst and has good size.) From what I do know he's good a prospect, but not quite elite. I ranked him only from what I know.

I actually know more about black small schooler Ramses Barden. I have heard glowing praise for him, but he isn't overly fast. However, he is huge (6'6 225) lbs. and is physical, runs pretty good routes, adjusts to the ball well and doesn't drop a lot of passes (could be another Plaxico Burress without the gun problems, lol).

Barden runs a 4.55-4.6 forty, which is pretty impressive for his size and he had ridiculous production at Cal-Poly.

This just seems like a bad year for the top white WR prospects to me. Many of the most talented ones had run happy offenses or a QB that didn't throw downfield much (Brodell, Hartline). Some had or are coming off, serious injuries (Lyons; a great slot prospect before he got hurt bad, & Brodell; who certainly used to have the speed for Split End, but he may have lost a little bit and his production wasn't very good this year in Iowa's run happy offense).

I still have a higher percentage of white WRs in my top 50 than the percentage of white "starters" in the FBS, which is definitely no more than 20% by my estimate. However, many are late round picks or only FA worthy this year. This shows, that even in a bad draft year; the white guys are proving that they deserve higher numbers demographicly in the FBS for sure by the prospect rankings.

I saw dwid's footage of Peterman and I got a better sense of him, than from watching him only once this year on t.v (he caught a lot of passes in the Michigan game so it was a good one to watch) and what I read on NFLdraftscout and other reports.

Peterson is very talented, but his production doesn't "blow you away" in the Northwestern offense and the early report I got of him from Scout.com and NFLdraftscout.com was that he runs only in the 4.6 range. I recently have seen 4.5 from a newspaper article and J.C says he ran in the 4.4 range for Northwestern coaches at some point.

Next year is a much better year for white offensive skill players. From my current knowledge I will have at least 4 white WRs in my top 10, maybe even six. I have two white guys (Gerhart, Sharp) in my top 5 RBs (Gerhart #2 in his first injury free year starting full time) and Sharp #4 even though his production didn't blow you away; but that's b/c of how Kansas used him at the beggining of the year. Sharp came on real strong when they tailored the running plays to his strengths and gave him more carries; Sharp sometimes needs a few carries early in the game on a drive to get his instincts going; he has freakish abilities.

Things are indeed improving, and next draft year may be the first signs, NFL draft speaking wise, of this site and Youtube having more of an influence.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

something that may be more helpful than ranking the players would be to compare them to current pros... i mean, virtually zero of the white wideouts who are available will be drafted anywhere near where they should be drafted. so doing such a ranking system is inherently flawed, in my opinion, because of the Caste System that is in power.

i just think it might be more beneficial to compare the white wide receivers to the black receivers who are currently playing (or have played) in the NFL that they most resemble. or even compare them to another prospect who is in the current draft class.

most every wideout is built like, moves like, runs routes like, has hands like, and has comparable athletic/size measurables to someone else, so why not do a comparison-contrast rather than a ranking system that is not going to even be close to how the draft pans out.

this would do two things:
1) it would blow up the whole ridiculous idea that every white receiver has to be compared to Ed McCaffrey, Ricky Proehl, or Wes Welker.
2) it would make for much better arguments/discussions later on with drunken white fans who insist that whitey isn't as good as blacky.

just something to think on. i can get it started, if you guys think it is a worthy idea. and then together we can build on it from there.

 

[Maple Leaf]

something that may be more helpful than ranking the players would be to compare them to current pros... i mean, virtually zero of the white wideouts who are available will be drafted anywhere near where they should be drafted. so doing such a ranking system is inherently flawed, in my opinion, because of the Caste System that is in power.

i just think it might be more beneficial to compare the white wide receivers to the black receivers who are currently playing (or have played) in the NFL that they most resemble. or even compare them to another prospect who is in the current draft class.

most every wideout is built like, moves like, runs routes like, has hands like, and has comparable athletic/size measurables to someone else, so why not do a comparison-contrast rather than a ranking system that is not going to even be close to how the draft pans out.

this would do two things:
1) it would blow up the whole ridiculous idea that every white receiver has to be compared to Ed McCaffrey, Ricky Proehl, or Wes Welker.
2) it would make for much better arguments/discussions later on with drunken white fans who insist that whitey isn't as good as blacky.

just something to think on. i can get it started, if you guys think it is a worthy idea. and then together we can build on it from there.

Well Jimmy, you are correct in my opinion, that not every white receiver has to be compared with the very best of the white receivers. If every black receiver had to live up to the standard of the top 2-3 black receivers to get drafted then what would the NFL do for want there of?

It may be worth mentioning that any of the top 50 producing receivers in D-1 -regardless of race- could be considered worthy candidates for the 5th or 6th receiver position on any NFL team.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

something that may be more helpful than ranking the players would be to compare them to current pros... i mean, virtually zero of the white wideouts who are available will be drafted anywhere near where they should be drafted. so doing such a ranking system is inherently flawed, in my opinion, because of the Caste System that is in power.

i just think it might be more beneficial to compare the white wide receivers to the black receivers who are currently playing (or have played) in the NFL that they most resemble. or even compare them to another prospect who is in the current draft class.

most every wideout is built like, moves like, runs routes like, has hands like, and has comparable athletic/size measurables to someone else, so why not do a comparison-contrast rather than a ranking system that is not going to even be close to how the draft pans out.

this would do two things:
1) it would blow up the whole ridiculous idea that every white receiver has to be compared to Ed McCaffrey, Ricky Proehl, or Wes Welker.
2) it would make for much better arguments/discussions later on with drunken white fans who insist that whitey isn't as good as blacky.

just something to think on. i can get it started, if you guys think it is a worthy idea. and then together we can build on it from there.

That's a great idea, let me start off by saying that Austin Collie, Larry Fitzgerald and Michael Crabtree all have very similar strengths as WRs. They all run great routes, have great hands, have a good burst off the line (especially Collie) and are physical and tough. However I think Crabtree and Fitz have a "slight" edge over Collie in how physical they play; and Crabtree has slightly better top-end speed than Collie. These guys all can project as Flankers for sure or even Split-Ends (That's what Fitz plays mostly) without the elite speed that you usually covet for that role.

None of those guys as far as I can tell run faster than 4.5 or so electronic timed at their best, but have other amazing gifts other than elite speed. I am guessing that Crabtree and Collie will both run around a 4.55, which is solid but not great, at the combine, Larry Fitz ran a 4.63 if I recall.

Eric Decker is also somewhat similar to these guys, but IMO is stronger than Collie and plays more rugged. I think Decker might even be a better prospect than Crabtree, the guy is just a beast who even played through a great deal of pain for most of this season.

Who would you guys compare Jordan Shipley to? He doesn't have any real weaknesses. Maybe playing with a rugged style is his weakness, lol, very unlike Decker...Maybe you could compare Jordan Shipley to Kevin Curtis or Greg Jennings with a little less top-end speed? Shipley could play the slot, or flanker, or split-end. He's very versatile.

Tyler Grisham seems like a great slot prospect to me, but I am not sure which black slot-man I would compare him too. Typical that he's been described as "Little Welker" even though he is a 3 inches taller than Wes.

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[dwid]

I dont think Crabtree is more physical than Collie, i know Decker definetly is. Im not sure what you mean by physical, like outmuscling the db to catch the ball or breaking tackles? because ive seen him break quite a few tackles. As for outmuscling the DB he never had to do that much it seemed because he always seemed to get seperation or find that soft spot in coverage. He didnt seem to have a problem of going up to get the ball if the db was right on him though.

Another thing, they both played in offenses that you could say would pad their stats, but Collie had the better YPC at around 14 and Crabtree at 12. Crabtree only had 3 games with catches that went for more than 30 yards in his senior year. Collie had 12 his senior year. You could argue competition is why Collie had better stats if you want but in Tech's offense it was all about Crabtree it seemed like. Everything ran through him, most of the plays were designed to go to him, granted i didnt watch alot of tech though. With BYU, Collie was not always the center of everything, alot of passes went to the tight ends like Pitta, and alot of them went to the backs.

Also, Big 12 defenses weren't exactly that good. So i dont think Crabtree has better top end speed than Collie. If anything they are about the same, maybe giving Collie the edge.

Jordan Shipley is very quick and has good initial burst, but i dont see any problem with his top end speed either. I would say hes somewhere in between Curtis and Welker but not as physical as Welker. Yes i am comparing a White player to other Whites heh, but they are all great White players and the ones i am most familiar with.

Decker is similiar to Fitz and he kind of reminds me of a Marques Colston type (I am familiar with Colston being a Saints fan), but i think Decker might be a little faster. Out of all the White prospects at WR, i think he probably the best. Too bad he is not coming out this year, but i guess its a good thing since this draft is deep at wide receiver.

edit: collie and crabtree were both not seniors but you know what i mean, their final college year

I dont know who to compare Eric Peterman to. He is quick and good at getting yards after the catch. I also believe he runs around 4.4something.
I suggested on a Jaguars forum that they should draft Peterman since Garrard likes to dink and dunk so much

. Peterman would be a great fit for that type of offense as he is already kind of used to it.Edited by: dwid

 

[whiteathlete33]

Decker is ranked very highly by almost every anti white site on the net. That is promising.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I'm just waiting for the Pro Day and Combine results. Austin Collie is a tough player and he has good speed. dwid is right about the BYU offense though. Not everything was designed to go through him, unlike Texas Tech and Crabtree.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I can't wait to see what Austin Collie runs today. If he runs a 4.5 or better; he might actually be a better prospect than Crabtree. They are similar players; with Crabtree having a slight edge in physicality IMO. I predict Crabtree would be a 4.55-4.6 guy at the Combine if he ran.

I'm expecting Hartline and Means to both run high 4.4s, with maybe Means even dipping into the low 4.4 range. Swift seems like a mid 4.5 to low 4.6 guy.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Bump: Post Combine re-rankings done with more time put into watching highlight videos. I now have 11 white WRs getting drafted caste-free! Too bad there are so few white starters in the FBS; so considering that, 11 white WRs drafted are pretty good rankings by me for whites.

I try to be completely race neutral when ranking players and as I said I don't have enough time to make these rankings as accurate as a fair minded person who does this for a living would.

 

[j41181]

Bump: Post Combine re-rankings done with more time put into watching highlight videos. I now have 11 white WRs getting drafted caste-free! Too bad there are so few white starters in the FBS; so considering that, 11 white WRs drafted are pretty good rankings by me for whites.

I try to be completely race neutral when ranking players and as I said I don't have enough time to make these rankings as accurate as a fair minded person who does this for a living would.

11 WR's is music to my ears!

I'm as neutral when it comes to the race of players as they come. After all, results count more than race itself. But given the incredible following football has among whites, there should be as many whites as there are blacks in the NFL. If things were caste-free, there would be several white RB's, WR's, CB's, and LB's in the entire NFL.Edited by: j41181

 

[RBNY123]

so who are the eleven.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Check the first page. All the 35 guys ranked I think should be drafted this year. At the bottom of the first post I list all the whites and give a quick breakdown of their playing style and list their round projections.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Just updated my analysis for the WRs on the first page. Go white guys! I'm sort of excited for this draft, but next years should be the one that might be the best in the last 20 years for white speed position players!

Edited to add: There are so many top white WRs and RBs next year what will the caste system be able to do?Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[DWFan]

I think RB is so far entrenched in the caste system that we might be waiting awhile for things there to change. What chances Hillis gets will mean a lot. But man I hope you're right about how many WRs get taken! BTW happy to see you back.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I think you may have misunderstood, I only think 3 white WRs will get drafted this year with the caste system (Collie, Hartline and Means), but in a fair world around 13 would get drafted. There are lots of talented guys. I meant who "I think" should get drafted. I think next year will be even better though. I'm expecting more than 5 white WRs to get drafted next year. Eric Decker is a beast and may be the best WR overall next year and Shipley may be #2 on my ranking list next year!

 

[dwid]

Im glad you liked the Peterman video Tough.J, but did you see the Morris video? I feel he is highly underrated and should be ranked a little higher. He was hurt with a hamstring injury in the beginning of this season which hindered his performance, i feel he couldve made around 1,000 yards if it werent for that

and hes been stuck at H receiver which is the inside guy on the left side (of course he didnt always line up like that, different formations required variation on where he lined up of course). Harrell usually looked for Crabtree first, then the Y receiver who is the inside guy on the right side. 2007 that was Danny Amendola who had 109 catches for over 1,245 yards 6 tds and Morris had 75 catches for around 800 yards with 9 tds.

Last year the spot that Amendola had was manned by Detron Lewis who had 76 catches for 913 yards and 3 tds. Britton was the outside receiver on the the left side and had 35 catches for 577 yards and 6 tds (he dissapeared during games), and then the other inside receiver who was Morris again with season close to 800 yards and 74 catches and another 9 tds, (with an extra 2 rushing tds) had he been without the hamstring injury i think he wouldve been closer to 1,000 yards, because Lewis didnt get open as much as Amendola. Personally I think Morris shouldve moved over to the Y spot where Amendola was previously since thats how Harrell usually went through his progressios, he wouldve had more catches and more yards. The second progression shouldnt have 76 catches and the 3rd progression have 75.

Of course theres no way to tell how he wouldve done but it definetly shows how good Amendola was, getting 109 catches and over 1200 yards and then production drops off with the guy filling in the spot getting around 30 less catches and around 300 less yards. But i do think Morris wouldve gotten around the same as Amendola, and without the hamstring injury probably around 1,000 yards even at the H spot which is amazing to me. (Amendola played the H spot in 2006 and had around 50 catches for 500 yards, switching over to the Y spot in 2007 his production more than doubled)

So technically Morris should be the 3rd or 4th read, depending on the play and what the defense is showing. (of course there were situations where he was the first read based on the play, if the offensive coordinator sees something or what the qb saw on his pre snap read.)

The H receiver also has to come out in certain packages.

Hes very quick, he runs great routes and has great hands. Hes very slippery and even though hes 5'8 he doesnt go down easily. Arm tackles dont seem to phase him that much, he will slip right through them. And from what ive heard and read, he doesnt run a 4.5, he runs around a low 4.4. I think he can be a great slot receiver at the next level.Edited by: dwid

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

You may be right about Morris. I have seen your video of Morris and he looks pretty impressive, but you have to remember that this is a very strong WR class this year (the RB class is average according to draft gurus) and being 5'8 usually hurts for a WR more than a RB unless you're an absolute stud or complete slot machine type. This is b/c QBs prefer big targets who have long reaches. Morris also has the reputation of being a product of a pass happy offense. NFLdraftscout lists Morris's 40 time at 4.47. It is just my best guess from what I've read and watched of him that he would run about a 4.52 if he was at the Combine. The Combine is a slightly slower track and guys usually run about .05 slower there than on their college's track. I found out that NFLdraftscout gets the athletes 40 time from the college's best estimate of them or if available if they actually ran for scouts.

I don't know for sure where Morris should be ranked, but I can tell you I certainly don't think he should be a day one pick this year, I think he's a late round guy, but he might be better than 7th round.

BTW: I actually think Vinny Perretta is a slightly better athlete than Morris (the guys an athletic freak), but his production wasn't as impressive. I also dropped Tyler Grisham down in my rankings b/c he ran a 4.65, but the more disappointing part was that he only ran a 1.6 flat 10 yard clip. Grisham's agility numbers were pretty good though, which means he cuts well to make up for his lack of ideal burst. Grisham also didn't perform well on the bench press.

There are just so many guys to figure this out perfectly, but I definitely think all 15 guys I listed warrant a serious look by the NFL to make rosters and the top 7 white WRs in my rankings could be absolute studs. Out of the lower ranked guys the two I think have the most potential are Vinny Perretta and Dicky Lyons if he has recovered from his serious injury. The other 6 guys I am less excited about, but still have NFL level skills.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

One guy I would like more info on is Todd Peterson of Nebraska, I only have seen him play once last season (if anyone could help me out I'd appreciate any info; I know a lot more about Nate Swift due to dwid's Youtube video). From what I've read and what little I've seen of Peterson, I don't think he is legit NFL roster material. He seems like simply a training camp guy to me, but I could be wrong.

I had previously said the same thing about Ross Lane from what I knew and it looks like I turned out to be right. He ran a 4.9 40 at Northwestern Pro Day and only jumped 26.5 inches. He's a brilliant route runner, has great hands and is tough, but as a WR you have to draw the line somewhere for speed. I think a 4.8 is as slow as a WR can possibly be nowadays in the NFL, no matter what his other gifts are.

 

[RBNY123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX3Hcckfao

there is a vid of vinny peretta he seems to be a very good player, is it likely that he will be drafted

 

[whiteathlete33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX3Hcckfao

there is a vid of vinny peretta he seems to be a very good player, is it likely that he will be drafted

I have never heard of him. I checked Nfldraftscout and he has a 40 time of 4.43. He even ran a 4.35 which is extremely fast. They have him ranked as the # 58 receiver.

I think it is highly unlikely he will even get a free agent look. His best receiving year was last with 36 catches. He does have excellent speed though.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I hope Perretta does get drafted, but I'm predicting he is a priority FA as of now. Perretta's production wasn't elite and he's a bit small, but he's an athletic freak and could have done much better if Boise State played him more early in his career and threw to him more. NFLdraftscout only ranks Perretta 58th, so hopefully scouts of some NFL teams will value him more than that. I will be very disappointed if he doesn't get a shot, b/c he has a lot of upside and could turn out to be a good NFL WR. Perretta has more upside than Nate Swift, even though I rank Swift higher.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX3Hcckfao

there is a vid of vinny peretta he seems to be a very good player, is it likely that he will be drafted

I have never heard of him. I checked Nfldraftscout and he has a 40 time of 4.43. He even ran a 4.35 which is extremely fast. They have him ranked as the # 58 receiver.

I think it is highly unlikely he will even get a free agent look. His best receiving year was last with 36 catches. He does have excellent speed though.

Sorry, I see you already mentioned his NFLdraftscout ranking. NFLdraftscout is probably more fair than your average service (meaning it still sucks) and they actually have guys who have worked as NFL scouts working for them. I am just hoping that somebody will realize that Perretta is better than his production indicates and will be brazen enough to take this unheralded white WR.

 

[dwid]

You may be right about Morris. I have seen your video of Morris and he looks pretty impressive, but you have to remember that this is a very strong WR class this year (the RB class is average according to draft gurus) and being 5'8 usually hurts for a WR more than a RB unless you're an absolute stud or complete slot machine type. This is b/c QBs prefer big targets who have long reaches. Morris also has the reputation of being a product of a pass happy offense. NFLdraftscout lists Morris's 40 time at 4.47. It is just my best guess from what I've read and watched of him that he would run about a 4.52 if he was at the Combine. The Combine is a slightly slower track and guys usually run about .05 slower there than on their college's track. I found out that NFLdraftscout gets the athletes 40 time from the college's best estimate of them or if available if they actually ran for scouts.

I don't know for sure where Morris should be ranked, but I can tell you I certainly don't think he should be a day one pick this year, I think he's a late round guy, but he might be better than 7th round.

BTW: I actually think Vinny Perretta is a slightly better athlete than Morris (the guys an athletic freak), but his production wasn't as impressive. I also dropped Tyler Grisham down in my rankings b/c he ran a 4.65, but the more disappointing part was that he only ran a 1.6 flat 10 yard clip. Grisham's agility numbers were pretty good though, which means he cuts well to make up for his lack of ideal burst. Grisham also didn't perform well on the bench press.

There are just so many guys to figure this out perfectly, but I definitely think all 15 guys I listed warrant a serious look by the NFL to make rosters and the top 7 white WRs in my rankings could be absolute studs. Out of the lower ranked guys the two I think have the most potential are Vinny Perretta and Dicky Lyons if he has recovered from his serious injury. The other 6 guys I am less excited about, but still have NFL level skills.

I like Vinny but i just cant see how he can be ranked ahead of Morris. Morris is a slot machine, hes quick, hes beaten guys like Nic Harris who are supposed to be going early in the draft.

If you wanna subtract from his 40 yard dash then i think you would have to do the same for Vinny and say he runs about a 4.48 and hes only 1 inch taller than Morris with less production.

Boise State also has a pass happy offense and is in a weaker conference. I know Big 12 doesnt exactly have the best defenses but id rank the WAC a little lower. I havent seen much of Vinny, the main Boise State games ive watched this season were against Louisiana Tech and Southern Miss and I dont remember him doing much,

I can see him as a team's 4th WR at best right now, although he does have the athletic ability to improve on. I am downloading some other Boise State games to look at him more and possibly make a highlight.

I can see Morris being a consistent factor as a teams number 3/slot receiver.

I wish both of them the best but given that the measurables arent that much different and the production favors Morris, id have to go with Morris over Vinny at the moment