Black QB’s and sustained drives

[referendum]

One indicator to me of a good QB is whether he can consistently lead his team on a long sustained drive on a regular basis. By this I mean something like a 12 play 75 yard drive ending in a TD, with a nice mix of short and long passes and rushes, something like a west coast offense type drive.
What I've noticed about many black QBs is their inability to do this for their teams. For instance in the Washington game on Thursday, Campbell's only TD drive started with great field position. I remember last year that Tennessee would often score TD's when they got the ball in great field position after a turnover. This may be a trend worth watching, though I suppose the QB rating inherently reflects this as well.

 

[ThatBlackGuy]

One indicator to me of a good QB is whether he can consistently lead his team on a long sustained drive on a regular basis. By this I mean something like a 12 play 75 yard drive ending in a TD, with a nice mix of short and long passes and rushes, something like a west coast offense type drive.

What I've noticed about many black QBs is their inability to do this for their teams. For instance in the Washington game on Thursday, Campbell's only TD drive started with great field position. I remember last year that Tennessee would often score TD's when they got the ball in great field position after a turnover. This may be a trend worth watching, though I suppose the QB rating inherently reflects this as well.

I hate to break it to you, but i watched my man, J.T Osullivan do exactly what you just described several times, and hes white. While i watched Mcnabb blast the Rams, and watched Marc Bulger make terrible reads and mistakes and get knocked around. Very few NFL Qbs are good, white and black. At the moment are the best QBs white? Yes. But that doesnt take away from the fact that guys like Mcnabb and Gerrard still maintain and manage offenses that have at the least, gone to the playoffs. You are cherry picking here in my opinion.

 

[Bart]

I hate to break it to you, but i watched my man, J.T Osullivan do exactly what you just described several times, and hes white. While i watched Mcnabb blast the Rams, and watched Marc Bulger make terrible reads and mistakes and get knocked around. .

O'Sullivan was only a sixth round pick, and has barely thrown a couple dozen passes as a back up in his entire career before last Sunday's game. But of course, white QB's had better play great from the get-go or they will be hammered. As for Bulger, are you serious? When healthy and with a good o-line, he has played very well.

 

[celticdb15]

TBG not to nitpick but St Louis has the worst o-line i have seen. Put any qb back there black, white, purple they will not be able to do their job and get the ball to their playmakers.

 

[Don Wassall]

TBG's post shows, despite his protestations, that he's here as a troll. "Very few good QBs" in the NFL? Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Cutler, Anderson, Warner, Delhomme, Rodgers, Rivers, Eli Manning, Bulger, Hasselbeck, Pennington, Garcia, Edwards, Favre, McNabb, Garrard, and two pretty good Week One performances from Ryan and Flacco. And Brady Quinn still awaiting his chance.


My guess is that at least half a dozen white QBs currently playing will make the Hall of Fame (Brady, P. Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Palmer and Favre), and several others mentioned above may also turn out to be all-time greats. The truth is that there are many good quarterbacks in the NFL, just not many good black ones. And McNabb is injury prone and Garrard has done it for just one season so far.

 

[Deadlift]

While i watched Mcnabb blast the Rams, and watched Marc Bulger make terrible reads and mistakes and get knocked around.

Right here your angle is, "black QB's can do it too." McNabb went out and did what he was supposed to do. How many White QB's are going to throw all over the Rams? How many of them are going to do what they're being paid to do?

Jay Cutler threw all over Oakland. How many other White QB's are going to do the same? How many White QB's are going to throw all over Cincinnati? How many White QB's are going to throw all over Cleveland?

Very few NFL Qbs are good, white and black.

A weak attempt at trying to be "fair" or "diplomatic"...

It's also incorrect.

At the moment are the best QBs white? Yes.

Are you implying that White QB dominance will end at some point? If so, how will this come about? Also, do you know what positional dominance is?

For instance, no matter how many sacks Kerney and Allen and Kampman accumulate, DE is NOT a White-dominated position. The sheer number of black DE's makes this the reality. Interestingly enough, White QB's are under-represented in College Football, but they still account for most of the dominant QB's. Many of these QB's will hit the NFL soon.


I have an interesting story for you. Seahawks' wide receiver, Nate Burlson, is out for the season. On ESPN's "Mike and Mike" morning show, John Clayton put 2 names out there that the Seahawks' might contact. Guess who they were?? I'll help you out, they were Keenan McCardell and Joe Horn. So, I ask, are washed-out players' along those lines going to determine whether Matt Hasselbeck is a bum or not?

Do you believe that there's a Caste System? Do you want to watch all-black football? If you want to watch all-black football, you are certainly entitled to that view. And, football is VERY black anyways. You should be in heaven. Just end the charade already! I apologize if someone hasn't mentioned this, but there are sites like blackQB.com and blackathlete.com.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

TBG, there are probably two black QBs currently in the top 13 in the league IMO. That would be Gerrard and McNabb, although Gerrard is very borderline. McNabb looked to be a top 5 QB before his injury problems IMO.

A 2:11 ratio of black to white is pretty darn good considering that blacks are only 13% of the populous. Of course this is partly b/c black QBs will continue to get far longer and better chances to show they can play than whites.

Brees and Palmer IMO haven't done enough to prove they are likely going for the hall of fame yet, but the other 4 Don mentioned are all going to get in IMO. Of course Rothlisberger is a projection considering he is so young. Phil Simms hasn't even made the hall yet, so it is harder to get in than people think.

There are lots of up and coming good white QBs right now. There is one black QB, Russell, that we haven't seen enough of to know if he will make the top 11 in the league. Campbell is mediocre at best right now and has been around a while. Vince Young has regressed and is probably going to stay in the bottom third of QBs in the league. Fat chance Tarvaris Jackson will ever come around IMO, he just plainly sucks but will be groomed as a starter until the drunken fans call for the coaches head.

Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB. Whites have a more noticeable advantage at O-line and blacks have a more noticeable advantage at CB IMO. All other positions should closely represent the ratio of blacks to whites in the United States with some small disparities. See the Vince Young thread in the Titans forum Black Guy to get my opinion of what the racial representation of the NFL should be without the caste system.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[whiteathlete33]

No matter how hard they try they can't get good black quarterbacks. Akili Smith was supposed to be great and look what happened to him. Culpepper was decent but he was hyped up more than any quarterback in recent memory. If the league thinks it's going to create a Warren Moon for every team then it's fooling itself.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I might add, that I don't think we will see a black Tom Brady in my lifetime, just my opinion. We won't see a white Barry Sanders either, but IMO there will be a white out there in my lifetime that could have the impact of a Barry Sanders with his own running style.

Eventually it will happen just like with the white DE. A white RB will make it through and become a Pro-bowler. Why? This is because any white RB that actually makes it through would have to be comparable to Jared Allen caliber for his position. The first guy won't make it through unless he has Pro-bowl potential. The system just won't allow it right now. Could it be Sam McGuffie? Could it be Brandon Wegher or Rex Burkhead? I think things are changing a little. Keep your head up fellow posters the information age will slowly crack away at the caste system. But until then we will have to be patient.

 

[White Shogun]

Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB, but are discernibly better at O-line and blacks are discernibly better at CB IMO.

TJR, if whites are only "slightly" better at QB, a position which they clearly dominate, in what position would you say whites are superior at all, if any? O-line, and that's it?

 

[Bear Backer]

This is the deepest I have EVER! seen the young talent level at starting QB position in my lifetime, but of course all we hear is how weak the QB position is from the talking heads in the media, because they have an agenda to sell. That agenda is undoubtedly the pro black NFL caste system and the push for more black "dual threat" QB's like Vince Young and Michael Vick.

There is basically one really top of the line black starting QB in the entire NFL and that is McNabb when Healthy. IMO Gerrard is a middle of the pack game manager on par with the likes of an aging Jeff Garcia or a Chad Pennington. There is certainly nothing wrong with that type of Journeyman player. They even fit the bill perfectly for a while for some teams who just need the QB not to screw up, they just are not the type of guy you want to build your franchise around. The rest of black QB's are Pathetic as in the case of Jackson, Very Bad in the case of Vince Young to borderline bad/acceptable in the case of Jason Campbell. Then there is the untested JaMarcus Russell who did not show much of anything in the way of promise during his debut except for in garbage time.

JT O'Sullivan is a horrible example to use when saying there aren't many good QB's in the game and is an obvious stretch. Why would anyone expect anything from JT O'Sullivan to begin with? A sixth year journeyman with no career starts to his credit until opening day 2008 and a grand total of 26 career passes thrown prior to that time, and Yet

he still managed to have a higher completion percentage and QB rating than any other black QB's with the exception of McNabb, and not counting the garbage time td's and rating of Russell, who played poorly for the most of his game. The trolling is so obvious.Edited by: Bear Backer

 

[Thrashen]

"Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB, but are discernibly better at O-line and blacks are discernibly better at CB IMO."

I guess we'll never know if whites are better corners than blacks....the caste system helped get rid of that controversy LONG ago.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB, but are discernibly better at O-line and blacks are discernibly better at CB IMO.

TJR, if whites are only "slightly" better at QB, a position which they clearly dominate, in what position would you say whites are superior at all, if any? O-line, and that's it?

There is basically virtually no discernible difference between blacks and whites at most positions WS, IMO with blacks and whites often having somewhat different playing styles. I have discovered this through watching game film.

The only reason I say that the league should be 40% black at RB and 60% white in a 13% black, 67% white country is b/c of the most elite black RBs darting cutting style. Whites tend to be slashers and lose a little more speed in transition and bounce more when making their cut. But whites "on average" have a slightly better burst, better tackle breaking skills and make that first cut through the line better (the cutback style).

The agile black style tends to be darting in another direction when on the move. Blacks also have slightly better speed on average. The NFL always wants to diversify their playing style, which would bring an increase in black players at certain positions as opposed to the population census, not based on ability. The NFL, if just between black and white, should be about 75% white and 25% black. Basically how it was in the late 60s.

I have seen white RBs like Sam McGuffie, Cory McCaffrey, Mike Trumpy, Rex Burkhead and Brandon Wegher who lose almost nothing in transition when making their cuts. Sam McGuffie, being the most elite of the bunch, could be one of the most agile RBs of all time in the NFL one day and his burst is off the charts. Sam may get the 10 yard dash electronic timed record. But even McGuffie tends to be a mix of slasher and darter. Sam bounces and redirects his momentum so far that it just takes the defender completely out of the play. Noel Divine for instance is an example of a darter.

I would probably give whites a slight edge at TE and FB and blacks a slight edge at Free Safety also. Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Thrashen, CB is the only position that through my watching game film I believe that blacks have a discernible advantage. But still, the NFL could be almost half white at the position IMO, with the large white talent pool to draw from. There would even be occasional whites that would make the Pro-bowl like an uninjured Jason Sehorn or Eric Weddle.

I am most concerned about the RB situation. It is pure racism that whites are not allowed to even touch the ball as a tailback and tailback is the second most glamourous NFL position and the most fun to watch. IT sickens me that people of my race are completely shut out of playing a position that we love and emasculated. IT is an outright brainwashing of the general public. Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[White Shogun]

Your percentages and argument belie your claim that you do not believe in black athletic superiority.

I hope you will re-read your posts with a critical eye. You state in your opening paragraph that there is virtually no discernible difference between blacks and whites at any position, yet, you then go on to explain why blacks are better running backs.

Your other posts on this topic indicate that you feel blacks are superior cornerbacks. In this post you now include safeties, although you limit black superiority with the clarifier 'slight'.

Whites, in your view, hold only slight advantage at quarterback (???), TE, WR, and offensive line.

You go on to say that the racial demography of the NFL should be 75% white and 25% black, as though this is harmonious with your claim that you feel whites and blacks are 'equal.' Newsflash: Stating that the NFL should be 25% black is the same thing as saying that blacks are superior athletes, because they are only about 15% of the population. Evidently, blacks are so superior even in your eyes that whites, despite having a huge advantage in population, are so inferior to blacks that they cannot even maintain their statistical share of player positions available in the NFL.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Incorrect, b/c whites are 67% of the populous and I said they should make up 75% of the NFL "if just between black and white". I didn't say that blacks are superior RBs to whites, just that they usually have a different style and the NFL always wants to diversify it's style.

I think from 1967-1970 the NFL was around 75% white. It would seem to me unreasonable that the NFL was racist at that time, with the South just getting over segregation, but the north liberalizing. I think overall the late 60s to early 70s policies of our country were basically racially neutral, unlike the anti-white racism of today.

Plus a 16-17% black, 83-84% NFL based on population demographics would have less racial competition and comparison, which IMO brings some of the fun to the game. I have a lot of ethnic pride and I like to see people of my ancestry compete with other groups. That is what the Olympics were actually founded on if you think about it.

 

[Bart]

I think overall the late 60s to early 70s policies of our country were basically racially neutral, unlike the anti-white racism of today.

Actually, with the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, andsubsequent formation of the Equal Employment Opportuniy Commision,our governmentbecame everything but racialy neutral. Itis nowan anti-white, juggernaut, gaining more and more momentumeach passing day.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I think overall the late 60s to early 70s policies of our country were basically racially neutral, unlike the anti-white racism of today.

Actually, with the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and subsequent formation of the Equal Employment Opportuniy Commision, our government became everything but racialy neutral. It is now an anti-white, juggernaut, gaining more and more momentum each passing day.

Well, I am not aware of all the aspects of the Civil Rights act, but I am sure that some of it contained anti-white legislation which started a trend. Segregation may have been a good idea in theory, b/c of the inevitable racial tension that develops from putting different cultures/ ethnic groups together. However, everything I have read has said that segregation was separate but unequal.

It was bound to end, now we just have to do our best to make peace as much as we can and stay out of ghetto thug neighborhoods that contain ethnic gangs that hate whites. Middle Class suburbs for the most part are pretty safe, so I don't see the doom and gloom everywhere. I just moved to Jersey from peaceful Canada. NJ unlike Canada has lots of crime, but so far I haven't felt like I'm in danger in the middle class neighborhood I'm living in.

I personally feel though that the late 60s NFL is how it should be. I think it was pretty fair. Sorry for the long post.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Getting back to black QBs, McNabb seems to like Desean Jackson a lot and I hope this doesn't screw Curtis. They might even move Curtis back to the slot, but my guess is they will start both Curtis and Jackson and bring in one of the others for the 3rd WR role. Even the NFL couldn't actually demote Curtis to 3rd after 1110 yards on 77 catches could they?

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

TJR,

i hate to call you out, but there is one thing you always miss, mate. you talk about things "on average."

professional athletes are considered better than average by definition, meaning each individual is somewhere relatively near the top end of the bell curve for whatever physical attributes are needed to succeed in whatever sporting endeavor said athlete is competing in. erego, no single player is average.

each individual athlete is supposedly measured on his/her individual ability. "averages" mean, or rather, should mean absolutely nothing.

therefore, all this talk of blacks "on average" or whites "on average" business is moot. if you want to be more accurate, you should say something to the effect of "more likely per unit of population" if you think a certain ethnic group possesses some sort of inherent genetic advantage.

just trying to be helpful.

also, that whole "running styles" business is bunk. there are many successful running styles currently on display in the NFL, from the gliding cutbacks of Adrian Peterson to the straight ahead mashing of Brandon Jacobs to the darting/slashing style of Michael Turner). but somehow i am supposed to believe whites can't do any of them? ha!

and as for cornerback, whites used to be pretty darn good out there on an island. at least until the late 60s/early 70s. of course, there was a completely different technique taught back then (maybe it was a corner method more effective for whites than blacks?), and the current technique wasn't taught until after the switch to negroes came on full swing. in fact, you'll still see the old-school technique taught at many white high schools if you pay attention.

maybe once disco music began white people couldn't move their hips anymore.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

You are correct JC. The way I should explain the on average is "on average among the elites". I actually did write that once, but it just sounds too long. These athletes are certainly on the far end of the bell curve. Genetically there are lots of theories. One scientific study found that African American's gene pools are more diverse.

Also it is certainly possible for freaks on the end of the bell curve for different ethnic groups to have different tendencies. And as far as my analysis of different styles, it just is my opinion from watching highlight film. I feel I have skill watching game film, but I am no expert. Of course their are lots of exceptions to my opinions of running styles among the races. Maybe I should say a general tendency.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[GWTJ]

Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB,

That's a pathetic, pathetic statement. I guess whites make only "slightly" better pitchers too.

Maybe Nevada had a point when he called out ToughJ on some of his posts.

 

[Don Wassall]

I think overall the late 60s to early 70s policies of our country were basically racially neutral, unlike the anti-white racism of today.

Actually, with the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, andsubsequent formation of the Equal Employment Opportuniy Commision,our governmentbecame everything but racialy neutral. Itis nowan anti-white, juggernaut, gaining more and more momentumeach passing day.

It just took sports a while to get up to speed, as is true withmany anti-white policies. The federal government began affirmative action under Richard Nixon, just one of a slew of very unconservative policies during his time in office.


Nixon was another of those"conservative" non-conservatives the Republicansspecialize in offeringup as the "lesser of two evils." This obvious charade has been going on so long, it's really sad to see how many Americans still play their part in the same destructive script. I'm sure 36 years ago, McCain backers would be making the exact same arguments as they are today -- "We must support Nixon. McGovern is an extreme radical and will finish off the country. Nixon is the lesser of the two evils and is better for white people." blah blah blah blah.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Basically IMO, whites are "slightly" better at QB,

That's a pathetic, pathetic statement. I guess whites make only "slightly" better pitchers too.

Maybe Nevada had a point when he called out ToughJ on some of his posts.

It's not really all that inaccurate. McNabb used to be a top 5 QB IMO before his injury problems and new stars emerged, he isn't quite there anymore. My quick estimate of the top 15 QBs would be:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Ben Rothlisberger
4. Drew Brees
5. Tony Romo (he's got great receivers)
6. Brett Favre, we'll see how he does with average WRs and older age.
7. Carson Palmer
8. Donovan McNabb if he stays healthy
9. Eli Manning
10. Derek Anderson
11. Matt Hasselback
12. Jay Cutler
13. Jake Delhomme
14. David Gerrard
15. Kurt Warner

So that is two black QBs in the top 14 or a 2:12 ratio of black to white, which is around representative of blacks to whites in the U.S populous with a slight edge to whites. Of course IMO I don't think that there will ever be a black Tom Brady and the most elite of elite QBs will remain white.

And oh yeah blacks are "slightly" worse swimmers too...(joking on the last part)

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

So White Shogun, what positions do you think blacks or whites have an advantage at in football?
I will now evaluate after heavy thinking any position where I think there is a small disparity.

Slight advantage for elite whites:
QB, DE, DT, MLB, RB in power formations or zone blocking schemes, Slot WR.

Slight advantage for elite blacks:
FS, speed RB or RB in spread, Split End WR.

More noticeable advantage for whites:
TE, FB, OL.

More noticeable advantage for blacks:
CB.

Basically no discernible difference (racially neutral):
OLB, SS, Flanker WR.

Basically overall this shows whites might be slightly better football players and the only positions blacks would have an edge at are ones where speed is crucial.




Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins