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Discussion in 'Baltimore Ravens' started by Guest, Apr 17, 2008.
Oh, a moderately talented, oft-injured, inconsistent (BLACK) quarterback retired?
Give me a break, NFL Live.
The game will be richer for having lost him.
Never mind the fact that he's a former co-MVP and has over 30,000 career passing yards along with 5,000 rushing yards (which is on the top 5 best rushing-passing combos in league history) and the fact that he turned the Ravens from a 5-11 team to a 13-3 team.
McNair's been praised here, but the fact is that he was washed up and was constantly banged up as well. He had some verygood years and was always a team first guy who cared about winning, not his personal statistics. But it was time for him and the Ravens to move on. He stayed on too long andhad becomea joke.
I don't think he was necessarily washed up (his 2006 numbers can prove that). 2007 was an awful year, definitely, but it was an aberration from an otherwise stellar career.
Roethlisberger had the same in '06. Any guy with the bad luck to get put on the shelf that much in a single season and of course his production will go down, regardless of the color of his skin.
Even Johnny U, the single greatest person to ever play the game, had some awful games and never once played all four quarters of a Super Bowl.
2002 and 2006 were the only two seasons of his final seven in which McNair didn't miss games because of injury. He was an injury prone quarterback and that eventually took a toll on him, as he mostly lost the ability to throw downfield with accuracy. He was the ultimate dink and dunk throwerby '06, as the Ravens offense had become painful to watch. He had a nice career and the Titans had some strong teams while he was with them, but he was a shell of that QB for the most part the past few years. It's never easy for an athlete to know when to retire, but my guess is that the Ravens organization was relieved when he made his announcement.
I'm not arguing for him to be in the Hall of Fame by any means; I'm just saying that he's not the awful human being and bottom-rung player that he's been made out to be here.
As far as his propensity for the short pass, well, that was Billick's system for almost any quarterback (let's not forget that Trent Dilfer didn't have too many deep throws in his brief Ravens tenure, the TD strike to Brandon Stokley in SBXV notwithstanding). Even with Kyle Boller at the helm we had the fewest pass plays for 30+ yards in the entire league (the exact statistic, for most of his tenure, at least, reminds one of a donut; in his '06 games his only really deep passes were total YAC efforts by Mark Clayton, who also provided McNair with the longest completion (87 yards against KC in a game I got to see in person) of his time in the city on the Bay).
Impressive career numbers, most definitely, but not a Hall of Famer by any means, if only for the lack of a ring. However, as far as the oft-disputed "legendary toughness" comment, well, I'd like to see how many other QB's spent as much time in the OR and still managed to walk to the fridge for a beer, let alone step onto the field and get hit dozens of times on a weekly basis.
I do think the injuries caught up with him last season and, frankly, as a Ravens fan since day 1 (when Vinny T ran in the first score in franchise history) I'm glad he knew when to hang up the cleats; it just remains to be seen whether Cam Cameron and his stable of KB, a seventh-round product-of-a-system (but still an amazing talent and passable backup) in Troy Smith and a D-II standout in Joe Flacco can turn Baltimore, who has always had one of the best receiving corps in the league, into an offensive powerhouse or whether Billick's aggressively conservative era has done generations of damage.
Well, we can certainly agree that Brian Billick was anything butan "offensive genius," a label his huge ego certainly didn't mind being called. And also that McNair is not a Hall of Famer, though I think he will eventually get in when his eligibility is nearing an end, much like the campaign for Art Monk paid dividends this year.
As far as McNair's toughness, I've always found it interesting that white quarterbacks that get hurt a lot are dismissed simply as that, injury prone, while black ones like McNair and Byron Leftwich are toasted for their toughness. Did anyone ever call Chris Chandler tough? He was always a standing joke; well, maybe McNair, who seemed to injure just about every body part during the course of a season,was worthy of being fodder for jokes too instead of always being spoken about reverently.
I've not personally heard of Byron Leftwich referred to as "tough" on the same level as McNair and, to be honest, I think in his case it'd be just an excuse to have something positive to say about the guy (akin to saying the ugly chick your friend wants to set you up with has "a great personality") just because he was never more than a subpar quarterback.
As far as Chris Chandler, well, he has impressive career numbers and just as many Super Bowls as McNair (and as many Super Bowl wins) but the fact of the matter is that McNair, in a shorter career, put more total yards, touchdowns, and a better winning percentage on the board than Chandler.
Of course, I have nothing positive to say about ANYONE who was drafted by a team that I refuse to acknowledge exists.
But as far as the injury-prone kiss of death label, I've seen it applied to QBs of all ethnic backgrounds (watch a week's worth of Around the Horn and PTI and you'll wonder if anybody in the league ISN'T made of porcelain). Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Chad Pennington, Donovan McNabb, and yes, even McNair and Leftwich for their toughness label also had the injury sticker put on their helmets as well.
Look at the Madden games, which are doing more to shape peoples' perceptions of the league more than ever, and the roles assigned by default to every player in the league. I don't see the band-aid (Injury Prone Player) relying on levels of melanin to be applied.
While Favre has to get traded when he changes his mind, ESPN just had a blurb about the Black-loving Ravens wishing McNair would return. They added that the "veterans" on the team were strongly supporting Troy Smith getting the starting job over Kyle Boller and Joe Flacco. Be nice if ESPN would just be honest and just say the black players on the team wanted Troy Smith. I predict Troy Smith will be named the starter by the start of the season. These days coaches are owned by the black players.
The problem is they don't care about winning as much as they do about race. They care more about taking home fat paychecks and securing positions on the team for their 'homies' than they do winning.
I remember reading in Jimmy the Greek's biography that he used to rate teams on the racial divisiveness. These days if you have a lot of vocal rabble rouser types your team is going to fall apart quickly. Just look at Cincy and their problems last season.....
Great post and very true. A commentary on the racial cohesiveness of black NFL players. Although I'm not sure that Boller will ever be anything more than an average starting QB in his career, why switch to the inexperienced Troy Smith when you just want to fill a gap until Flacco is ready? The majority of black players are pulling for Smith and I believe for most of them it has to do fully with race! Blacks really love their black QBs, but black QBs have it easy now. Whites like us are called racist for pulling for underdog white RBs who have effectively become a modern version of the old black QB!
Smith stunk in the game he started. One thing in Bollers favor Cam Cameron the new offensive coordinator for the Ravens dosen't like Smith as much as he likes Boller. I think Ultimately he will go with Boller because he has more experience and can actually play well when given the oppurunity.
I agree with Tough J, Boller simply isn't a very good QB. IMO he was drafted on athletic ability alone(4.5 speed, throwing 65 yards on one knee etc...) but the Ravens overlooked the fact that he had a sub 50 completion percentage for his career at Cal. He's had plenty of chances to prove he was worth his draft status but has not done so as of yet. As a Ravens fan I want the QB out there that can get us back to the Super Bowl and I assure you Boller isn't him.
As far as the blacks rooting for Troy Smith that's probably the case. I'm sure the white players are rooting for Boller or Flacco. It doesn't really mean anything though. My buddy's dad was an assistant trainer with the Ravens for about 3 or 4 years. From what I saw from some training camp practices and even during the few times I actually got to be in the locker room, most of the black players grouped togther especially the younger ones, and so did the white players.
To me it's ok to root for your own and I'm pretty sure if Smith gets his chance and fails then the players white and black will want the guy in there who will get the W's. Hell if there was a one armed Pakistani QB on the roster and the players thought he could get them to the Super Bowl they'd root for him too.Edited by: sportsfan #1
Boller has most definitely not had plenty of chances. Unlike Tavaris Jackson or Vince Young, Boller has never been handed the starting job; like most all young white QBs, when he has played he has had to constantly look over his shoulder (as well as listen to the boos of the drunk white fans who never boo the likes of Tavaris or Young). With a young white QB like Boller, every incompletion and every interception is scrutinized by the jock sniffers in the media and drunk white fans alike.
If black QBs were held to the same standard, Vince Young would have been treated less favorably after his pedestrian rookie year than Rex Grossman was after the Bears went to the Super Bowl. Young surely would never have been voted the offensive rookie of the year or made the Pro Bowl with his ridiculous stats; every jock sniffer on television would have scoffed at any white QB with those mediocre numbers. After last season's horrendous numbers, a white Vince Young would have been benched before it ended, and already been labeled a "bust." The Titans would also have brought in a real contender for the starting QB job in the off season. The same thing goes for Tavaris Jackson. With those numbers from last season, and the alleged talent the Vikings have everywhere else, he'd be getting the Grossman treatment for sure if he was white. The team would also be bringing in real competition for the QB position.
If Troy Smith does anything positive at all during the next preseason game, he'll be named the starter. Anything. The only reason he hasn't been declared the starter already is because he has looked so horrible in practice, and hasn't done anything in the games. Boller is clearly and unequivocally the better player. However, he has the dreaded skin pigmentation disorder that plagues all our favorites, and that is far more important than any ability or skill. Edited by: bigunreal
While I don't agree with your assessment of the competition between Boller and Troy Smith, I do welcome you to Castefootball. I think that as time goes by and you share with the men here on CF, you'll start changing your mind on the issues being discussed here.
You came on this site because you have your doubts as to what's going on and now all you need is final comfirmation. Your in the right place.
Take care Sir.
"The same thing goes for Tavaris Jackson. With those numbers from last season, and the alleged talent the Vikings have everywhere else, he'd be getting the Grossman treatment for sure if he was white. The team would also be bringing in real competition for the QB position."
I totally agree with your post, accept the fact that the Vikings recently drafted QB John David Booty from USC. I do realize that caste-troll Brad Childress named Jackson the starter, however, I don't think Booty was drafted just to sit behind a QB who can barely throw 40 yards (and is a slow-footed, non-flashy black QB).
You're correct that Jackson is perhaps the least talented QB to ever play in the NFL, but I think the Vikings do realize this incredibly obvious fact and ARE looking to replace him....even though his precious skin color could allow for the sissy boys in the media to fawn over him with undeserved praise for years to come.
As far as Boller, I think he's had it pretty rough on that crappy, offensively anemic team. He had tons of pressure from the "fans," he shared a locker room with a murderous thug (LB Ray Lewis), a conviced cocaine dealer (RB Jamal Lewis), and the caste-genious supreme (coach Brain Billick).
Sportsfan #1 - When you throw a young, polite, athletic, handsome white QB into the mix with the true lowlifes on "YOUR" favorite team....what do you expect to happen?
You think?! Holy Diversity Batman, that's racist!
Publicly and vociferously? I don't think so.
And bigunreal... preach it, brother. Truth.
Everyones entitled to their own opinion. I accept and respect that. One of the reasons I joined this site is because it deals with white bias in the sports world. I can't speak for everyone on this site but I'm 100% objective. If a white player isn't getting a chance I'm against that. But if a white player does get an opportunity and flop like Boller, then I'm not going to make excuses for his poor play. From what I've read on this forum as well as some of the others on this site I can assume that if Boller was black, given his same lousy play,the community here would be calling for his head.
Jackson and Young are irrelevant to me and the subject of the Ravens. Again, I want to see my team do well like most sensible fans. As someone who's been to nearly every Ravens home game the last three years I can say white, black, or green Kyle boller is not the answer for us at QB.
Sportsfan #1, what did you think of Boller's play during the last part of the 2005 season, when he was one of the most highly rated NFL quarterbacks? Despite the herky-jerky fashion in which he had been used up until then, he seemed to be coming into his own. Then the Ravens hired Steve McNair, who threw three-yard passes to his tight endsand ten-yard passes to his receivers during 2006before becoming completely washed up by '07as Boller went back to the bench.
Boller may not be the answer, but he has never gotten an opportunity of more than a few games before being benched or injured. However I don't think he ever will succeed in Baltimore until the "culture" of the organization is changed. Given the nearly all-black makeup of the team year after year and its leadership by Ray Lewis and friends, if any team should have a black starting QB it's the Ravens.Good luck to Joe Flacco.
No disrespect intended, but what on earth does "the nearly all black makeup" of the Ravens have to do with Kyle Boller's play? Let me ask you this if I may good sir, if Kyle Boller were black, given his struggles what would you say of him as a QB? Would you say he should be benched? Would excuses for hisinept play be made?All the excuses in the world can be made for any player. We can go on for days about the "culture" of the orginzation, but in the end poor performance is poor performance period.
As for Boller's play during the end of 2005, it was a nice little stretch and I actually started to believe what I was seeing, but as is clearly evident to anybody willing to look at the stuation with an unbiased and objective eye, it was obviously an abberation!
Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers I'm just a die hard Ravens fan who wants to see them succeed.
Boller never looked good to me, and he's had a lot of chances now. I don't have a problem with the Ravens starting Boller yet again in 08, but I don't expect much from him.
Read this article by black writer Jason Whitlock and maybe you'll understand what I mean by giving a quarterback an environment to succeed in: http://www.castefootball.us/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6534&a mp;a mp;a mp;PN=6
As far as Boller, "if Kyle Boller were black, given his struggles what would you say of him as a QB?" that's a moot point because no black QB drafted in the first round has ever been jerked in and out of the starting lineup with no continuity like Kyle Boller has.
And why was Boller's fine play at the end of 2005 an "obvious aberration"? How do we know when he began the 2006 season as a backup again? He wasn't allowed to build from that fine finish.
I'm not saying Boller is star material. We'll never know for sure now. Brian Billick was a quarterback killer. Boller was never given any continuity by the coaching staff, and the fans and mediawere on him from the beginning the way they are with many white quarterbacks (see Eli Manning and Drew Brees among many examples), proclaiming him an immediate bust. I see him as a victim of Billick and Caste System expectations that white quarterbacks must succeed immediately, whereas highly drafted black quarterbacks are patiently given several years by the coaching staff and by the media and fans.
Let me turn your question around for you -- if a white quarterback had performed as poorly as Tavaris Jackson, Vince Young and Kordell Stewart for a minimum of two consecutive years, do you think he would still be treated with the same kind of kid gloves as those quarterbacks were/are?Edited by: Don Wassall