Thanks Don. So that's what happened to Terry Bradshaw, explains a lot of things. Only kidding, I don't mind his antics, it's part of the schtick. Jack Lambert was one heck of a linebacker, wasn't he? Lambert, Ham and Russel were about as good a crew as you could get.
Who is the greatest NFL Qb ever to play?
- Thread starter onewarrior5
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The Steelers had a great linebacking crew during their glory years, plus a very good safety in Mike Wagner.
John Banaszak and Steve Furness played a lot too as the fifth and sixth d-lineman. Overall theyaveraged 11 white starters out of 22 on their Super Bowl teams (7 on offense 4 on defense), which was less than the average number of white starters at that time but more than any NFLteam has had for a number ofyears. Chuck Noll was a bit "daring" for his era, openly coddling and favoring blacks and starting a fair amountof them, butwhen Bill Cowher took over after the '91 season he quickly put into place a virtually all-black starting lineup, akin to what Jimmy Johnson was doing with the Cowboys.
John Banaszak and Steve Furness played a lot too as the fifth and sixth d-lineman. Overall theyaveraged 11 white starters out of 22 on their Super Bowl teams (7 on offense 4 on defense), which was less than the average number of white starters at that time but more than any NFLteam has had for a number ofyears. Chuck Noll was a bit "daring" for his era, openly coddling and favoring blacks and starting a fair amountof them, butwhen Bill Cowher took over after the '91 season he quickly put into place a virtually all-black starting lineup, akin to what Jimmy Johnson was doing with the Cowboys.
Doc Holliday
Guru
I gotta go with Joe Montana.....Every now and then I'll hear someone say that Montana was a product of Jerry Rice.....Then I have to remind them that Montana won 2 super bowl BEFORE Jerry Rice.....
Doc Holliday makes a very good point about Montana taking the Niner's to a couple Super Bowls before Rice arrived on the scene. After Joe, it was Steve Young who led the way. I heard Dwight Clark make a comment about Joe that was revealing. He said Joe made all his receivers better by throwing a very catchable ball. He didn't like to put the receiver in a position which made him too vulnerableor force him to make a circus catch. He had great touch.
Tom Brady is a lot like Joe in that regard.. Brady is a technician but has shown he can gun it pretty damn well if he wants to.Jaxvid said he would choose Steve Young to build a team around. The way the game is headed today, he might be right. I would then also consider a young Rich Gannon who played the position his last several years about as well as anybody. Too bad he spent so many years as a back-up. He could run well and throw with great precision and he certainly had the disposition of a field general.
Tom Brady is a lot like Joe in that regard.. Brady is a technician but has shown he can gun it pretty damn well if he wants to.Jaxvid said he would choose Steve Young to build a team around. The way the game is headed today, he might be right. I would then also consider a young Rich Gannon who played the position his last several years about as well as anybody. Too bad he spent so many years as a back-up. He could run well and throw with great precision and he certainly had the disposition of a field general.
Tom Brady is indeed reminiscent of Montana. Both excel at winning the big game. And neither fit the NFL's new mantra of "great athlete." Montana could scramble and runwell but was on the small side with spindly legs. Brady is "slow," but ranks with Peyton Manning as today's best at sensing and avoiding pressure.
Brady should be getting the media attention that Michael Vick receives.
Brady should be getting the media attention that Michael Vick receives.
sport historian
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Bart, yes I saw the footage you mention. It was one of those NFL Films features first shown about 20 years ago. It shows Jurgensen messing around in practice. He throw a pass behind his back. It must have gone 20 yards on a line and hit the receiver in the chest. You have to see it to believe it. I had read that Jurgensen could throw a pass behind his back. Indeed, he could.
Jurgense was always known in his playing days as the most accurate passer in football. I remember a Redskin-Dolphin game on TV in Sonny's last year of 1974. He played the whole game and led a comeback to beat Miami, the defending Super Bowl champs. Miami's famous zone defense couldn't stop a 40-year old Sonny Jurgensen.
I remember once listening to KNOX St. Louis radio. They were talking about an upcoming Card-Redskin game. Jack Buck told the fans to come out early to see Jurgensen warm up. "It's one of the great sights in sports," Buck said.
Jurgense was always known in his playing days as the most accurate passer in football. I remember a Redskin-Dolphin game on TV in Sonny's last year of 1974. He played the whole game and led a comeback to beat Miami, the defending Super Bowl champs. Miami's famous zone defense couldn't stop a 40-year old Sonny Jurgensen.
I remember once listening to KNOX St. Louis radio. They were talking about an upcoming Card-Redskin game. Jack Buck told the fans to come out early to see Jurgensen warm up. "It's one of the great sights in sports," Buck said.
Jack Buck told the fans to come out early to see Jurgensen warm up. "It's one of the great sights in sports," Buck said. Thanks for the quote Sport Historian.
Sonny probably practiced while puffing a lit cigar. The more I think about it, I may have seen the footage of the behind the back pass in the early seventies. Maybe he did it several times, he was wearing a stocking cap if I remember correctly. What a character!
Sonny probably practiced while puffing a lit cigar. The more I think about it, I may have seen the footage of the behind the back pass in the early seventies. Maybe he did it several times, he was wearing a stocking cap if I remember correctly. What a character!
Id have to go with Montana... for those of us who saw him at NotreDame he was the ultimate QB athlete. Great arm great speed, and great clutch play.... if you ever get a chance to watch that Cotton bowl game: NDagainst Houston... it was a foreshadow of his NFL career...I think Steve Young is a close second .. both were supreme athletes the likes of which the NFLnever saw before and has yet to see again.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
You can thank Ole Miss for Joe getting to start when he did in 1977! They beat Notre Dame in Jackson, the Irish started Joe after that and went on to win the Nationa Championship.
I found some Otto Graham information that's pretty interesting. Talk about a winning record!
Nicknamed "Automatic Otto," Mr. Graham never missed a game as a pro while passing for 23,584 yards and 174 touchdowns. He finished with an astounding 105-17-4 regular-season record. He took coach Paul Brown's teams to the title game in each season from 1946-55. The Browns won four championships in the old All-America Football Conference and three NFL titles. He was MVP of the AAFC three times.
"The test of a quarterback is where his team finishes," Brown once said. "By that standard, Otto Graham was the best of all time."
Nicknamed "Automatic Otto," Mr. Graham never missed a game as a pro while passing for 23,584 yards and 174 touchdowns. He finished with an astounding 105-17-4 regular-season record. He took coach Paul Brown's teams to the title game in each season from 1946-55. The Browns won four championships in the old All-America Football Conference and three NFL titles. He was MVP of the AAFC three times.
"The test of a quarterback is where his team finishes," Brown once said. "By that standard, Otto Graham was the best of all time."
right winger
Guru
That's very impressive. Ten straight title games, that's a record that will never be approached.
white lightning
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I would have to go with Joe Montana but just barely.Terry
Bradshaw never gets the respect he deserves along with
alot of other qb's.Even Brady may beat them all if he keeps
winning Super Bowls.Steve Young to me was the most exciting
qb I have ever seen.What a competetor he was.He was a
running back playing qb but could throw with incredible
accuracy.What a exciting player!
Bradshaw never gets the respect he deserves along with
alot of other qb's.Even Brady may beat them all if he keeps
winning Super Bowls.Steve Young to me was the most exciting
qb I have ever seen.What a competetor he was.He was a
running back playing qb but could throw with incredible
accuracy.What a exciting player!
Jim Kelly deserves consideration despite four
frustrating Super Bowls. The guy was also very good for the
Houston Gamblers. He had over 35000 passing yards and a 60%
completion percentage.
Doug Flutie wasn't great in his NFL years, but was
just as good as anybody when he played in the CFL and USFL.
frustrating Super Bowls. The guy was also very good for the
Houston Gamblers. He had over 35000 passing yards and a 60%
completion percentage.
Doug Flutie wasn't great in his NFL years, but was
just as good as anybody when he played in the CFL and USFL.
White Shogun
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Really? My research shows his career stats are comparable to those of Mike "the phenom" Vick:
[url]http://www.castefootball.us/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=571&KW =flutie+vick[/url]
Trainer
Newbie
Joe Montana has to be up there - a great quarterback and leader.
Can't really find too many faults in JM.
One of the all-time greatest. Having a great team around him doesn't hurt either.
Elway should get some consideration. Not too many other QB's had the
pure arm strength as Elway. Elway was also quite the srambler early in
his career, remember?
As for Sonny Jourgenson, I did see that old NFL Films footage from way
back when and also could never forget the sight of SJ flinging a
football underhanded behind his back. It seemed to have more velocity
on it than most average QBs' have on their straight arm passes.
I was a little young for Jourgenson though - never saw him play.
Unitas and Marino also should be considered the elite of the elite.
Marino had that quick release and a great sense of pocket presence.
Unitas is just the classic old school quarterback that just kicks your ass on the field.
Bradshaw? Not overly impressed with Terry.
A good quarterback on a damn awesome team.
Not the key component of the 70s' Steelers teams at all.
TB had his moments, a solid arm but he had a plethora of weapons to work with.
Not even in the top 10 imho.
I say:
1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Unitas
4. Marino
5. Tarkenton
Can't really find too many faults in JM.
One of the all-time greatest. Having a great team around him doesn't hurt either.
Elway should get some consideration. Not too many other QB's had the
pure arm strength as Elway. Elway was also quite the srambler early in
his career, remember?
As for Sonny Jourgenson, I did see that old NFL Films footage from way
back when and also could never forget the sight of SJ flinging a
football underhanded behind his back. It seemed to have more velocity
on it than most average QBs' have on their straight arm passes.
I was a little young for Jourgenson though - never saw him play.
Unitas and Marino also should be considered the elite of the elite.
Marino had that quick release and a great sense of pocket presence.
Unitas is just the classic old school quarterback that just kicks your ass on the field.
Bradshaw? Not overly impressed with Terry.
A good quarterback on a damn awesome team.
Not the key component of the 70s' Steelers teams at all.
TB had his moments, a solid arm but he had a plethora of weapons to work with.
Not even in the top 10 imho.
I say:
1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Unitas
4. Marino
5. Tarkenton
I found an interesting article comparing Unitas to Starr by Allan Barra.
Most overrated great quarterback: Johnny Unitas. Most underrated: Bart Starr. I made this point more than a year ago, but all the sentimental postmortems of Unitas' career make it necessary to reiterate a few facts. First, while Unitas was undeniably one of the three or four or five greatest quarterbacks in NFL history, he has been vastly overrated as a big-game player. The legendary 1958 and 1959 title-game victories over the New York Giants weren't merely the most famous championship games that Unitas ever won, they were the only championship games that Unitas ever won. Johnny U's entire 1960s career was one long frustrating attempt to live up to that early big-game glory. He never came close, a fact which seems to have eluded otherwise astute NFL historians such as Paul Zimmerman and Peter King.
Second, Bart Starr dominated Unitas in head-to-head matchups during the 1960s, winning 10 of 15 straight up and consistently beating the teams Unitas couldn't (for instance, the Jim Brown-led Cleveland Browns of the mid-sixties and the '67 "Fearsome Foursome" L.A. Rams). At the time, it was argued that Starr's success was due to the marked superiority of the Packers over the Colts from 1960 to 1967, but a quick glance at the record shows us that isn't true. Over that eight-year span, the Packers won just a handful more games than the Colts. The Packers won five championships in those eight years to the Colts' none, primarily because the Packers -- primarily because of Bart Starr -- were better in big games. At one point, in '65 and '66, they beat the Colts five straight times.
Most overrated great quarterback: Johnny Unitas. Most underrated: Bart Starr. I made this point more than a year ago, but all the sentimental postmortems of Unitas' career make it necessary to reiterate a few facts. First, while Unitas was undeniably one of the three or four or five greatest quarterbacks in NFL history, he has been vastly overrated as a big-game player. The legendary 1958 and 1959 title-game victories over the New York Giants weren't merely the most famous championship games that Unitas ever won, they were the only championship games that Unitas ever won. Johnny U's entire 1960s career was one long frustrating attempt to live up to that early big-game glory. He never came close, a fact which seems to have eluded otherwise astute NFL historians such as Paul Zimmerman and Peter King.
Second, Bart Starr dominated Unitas in head-to-head matchups during the 1960s, winning 10 of 15 straight up and consistently beating the teams Unitas couldn't (for instance, the Jim Brown-led Cleveland Browns of the mid-sixties and the '67 "Fearsome Foursome" L.A. Rams). At the time, it was argued that Starr's success was due to the marked superiority of the Packers over the Colts from 1960 to 1967, but a quick glance at the record shows us that isn't true. Over that eight-year span, the Packers won just a handful more games than the Colts. The Packers won five championships in those eight years to the Colts' none, primarily because the Packers -- primarily because of Bart Starr -- were better in big games. At one point, in '65 and '66, they beat the Colts five straight times.
foreverfree
Mentor
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- 902
Bart said:
You have a link for that article, Bart?
If Johnny U had pulled off that comeback in SB III, and perhaps survived George Andrie's smackdown in SB V, I imagine he might not have made the list. OTOH there was Unitas' fumble in a late 1966 game with GB at Memorial Stadium that cost Balt. the game and the Western Conference title.
You mentioned the '67 Rams. I thought what happened to the Colts in 1967 was one of the all time unsung quirks of sports. It's not every year that a pro football team loses just one regular season game *but misses the playoffs*, but in '67 the Colts went 11-1-2. So did their Coastal Division mates the Rams. The Colts' loss and one of the ties were against George Allen's Rams, *who won the tiebreaker as a result*. The loss came in the season finale at the Coliseum, something like 34-10, ending LA's 12 year playoff drought. IIRC both teams' ties came in the same consecutive weeks in midseason, tying each other at Memorial Stadium and tying again the following week in separate games. That was a classic divisional duel.
Of course for me this is all hearsay/readsay because I was 6 years old in 1967 and living in the Philadelphia area and didn't get into spectator sports until after Super Bowl V in January 1971, so I missed most of the Unitas heyday.
I challenge anyone to bring up Unitas' overratedness (is that a word?) on the Ravens board of baltimoresun.com/talk.
JohnEdited by: foreverfree
Foreverfree,I actually have always liked Johnny Unitas. After his death, Bart Starr called him the greatest QB ever. I do agree with the writer that Starr was underrated. How about the year Tom Matte was forced to play quarterback instead of halfback. The Colts did pretty well with him running the show. I don't know if Barra is right about all of his over/under achievers's list but it is interesting.
[url]http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/barra/2002/11/08/overra tedunderrated/?sid=1119489[/url]
[url]http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/barra/2002/11/08/overra tedunderrated/?sid=1119489[/url]
foreverfree
Mentor
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Thanks for the link, Bart. I'll read the article when I get a chance.
BTW in my previous post I forgot include a couple of phrases. I've edited that post and the added phrases are flanked by asterisks. 1967 was the first year of the NFL's tiebreaker system and the league had no wild cards back then, leaving the Horseshoes out in the cold despite their lone loss. IIRC Unitas was sacked 7 times in that loss to the Rams.
Johnny's spirit lives on in Maryland. A statue of him is outside Ravens Stadium (I choose to ignore the stadium's sponsor), Towson University's stadium bears his name, and 19th Street in Ocean City, MD has been renamed Johnny Unitas Way. By coincidence, Ocean City's street signs are in Colt colors.
John
BTW in my previous post I forgot include a couple of phrases. I've edited that post and the added phrases are flanked by asterisks. 1967 was the first year of the NFL's tiebreaker system and the league had no wild cards back then, leaving the Horseshoes out in the cold despite their lone loss. IIRC Unitas was sacked 7 times in that loss to the Rams.
Johnny's spirit lives on in Maryland. A statue of him is outside Ravens Stadium (I choose to ignore the stadium's sponsor), Towson University's stadium bears his name, and 19th Street in Ocean City, MD has been renamed Johnny Unitas Way. By coincidence, Ocean City's street signs are in Colt colors.
John
Joe Cool.
In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes 1,142 yards
and 11 touchdowns with an impressive zero interceptions, earning him a
quarterback rating of 127.8.
In 1993, the town of Ismay, Montana temporarily changed its name to Joe, Montana. Ha
Edited by: Deacon
In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes 1,142 yards
and 11 touchdowns with an impressive zero interceptions, earning him a
quarterback rating of 127.8.
In 1993, the town of Ismay, Montana temporarily changed its name to Joe, Montana. Ha
Edited by: Deacon