Week 10 2009
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GWTJ
Mentor
I don't think we are giving Elway his due here. Perhaps because he played during the 49'ers dynasty and Marino's career also.
Here is a guy who really did take an average team to great heights. The Broncos have always been mediocre. They didn't have great defenses. They didn't have any other stars on offense to help Elway. They finally got Davis in the late 90's. And maybe Shannon Sharpe, maybe.
Elways had the arm, the legs, the gunslinger attitude and the pedigree of a QB who brought his team back in the 4th quarter better than anyone. He has also retired having won more games as the starting QB than any other QB. Farve has since broken his record.
Elway took his team to the Super Bowl five times. Any other QB's doing that? The answer is no. He holds the record.
This is just my opinion but if you put Elway on the 49'ers of the 80's or 90's or put him on the Colts or Patriots of the 2000's those teams would be better than they were/are. Since the only difference would be the QB, I have to give the nod to Elway as, still arguably, the best ever.
The Broncos would have been NOTHING without him.
The two QB's that I think might be slightly overrated are Montana and Brady. No doubt they are top ten all time, but the great coaches and surrounding talent they had are partly responsible for their success and status.
Steve Young was great but he just wasn't in the same league as Elway when it came to throwing the ball. And Elway was probably a faster runner, he just wasn't a 'running QB'. Although he is the only QB in history with 50,000 yards passing and 3,000 yards rushing.
I wish I had seen Unitas in his prime since he was the standard by which all QB's were judged.
Here is a guy who really did take an average team to great heights. The Broncos have always been mediocre. They didn't have great defenses. They didn't have any other stars on offense to help Elway. They finally got Davis in the late 90's. And maybe Shannon Sharpe, maybe.
Elways had the arm, the legs, the gunslinger attitude and the pedigree of a QB who brought his team back in the 4th quarter better than anyone. He has also retired having won more games as the starting QB than any other QB. Farve has since broken his record.
Elway took his team to the Super Bowl five times. Any other QB's doing that? The answer is no. He holds the record.
This is just my opinion but if you put Elway on the 49'ers of the 80's or 90's or put him on the Colts or Patriots of the 2000's those teams would be better than they were/are. Since the only difference would be the QB, I have to give the nod to Elway as, still arguably, the best ever.
The Broncos would have been NOTHING without him.
The two QB's that I think might be slightly overrated are Montana and Brady. No doubt they are top ten all time, but the great coaches and surrounding talent they had are partly responsible for their success and status.
Steve Young was great but he just wasn't in the same league as Elway when it came to throwing the ball. And Elway was probably a faster runner, he just wasn't a 'running QB'. Although he is the only QB in history with 50,000 yards passing and 3,000 yards rushing.
I wish I had seen Unitas in his prime since he was the standard by which all QB's were judged.
indianwhite
Guru
Top 6 QB's All-Time:
1. John Elway
2. Steve Young
3. Peyton Manning
4. Joe Montana
5. Brett Favre
6. Dan Marino
1. John Elway
2. Steve Young
3. Peyton Manning
4. Joe Montana
5. Brett Favre
6. Dan Marino
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
I would put Steve Young as the best qb ever. He has the highest all time passer rating and could also run.
I think the greatest QB ever was Greg Landry because I traded half my football card collection to get a copy of his card in 1970. And in any discussion about all time greats it's just a matter of opinion. LOL
Some great posts in this thread though I can't believe the time and effort some of you guys put into it. Makes for good reading though! bigunreal's post really put it into perspective for me.
And hey what about a P-nut siting!! Been a while hasn't it? What's up?
Some great posts in this thread though I can't believe the time and effort some of you guys put into it. Makes for good reading though! bigunreal's post really put it into perspective for me.
And hey what about a P-nut siting!! Been a while hasn't it? What's up?
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Alworth No.19 said:
Yeah, I agree on Elway, I simply forgot b/c I typed up the list real quick without giving it much thought. Bart Starr of the original Packer Superbowl teams- should also be in the discussion- according to my pops who was a big fan.
I revised my GOAT list:
1. Montana (Very cerebral and always showed up in the big games..aka Cool Joe)
2. Manning (Eli, jk. Should become #1 before long)
3. Brady (Wayne, jk. Should become #2 before long)
4. Elway (Two time Superbowl champ with great stats)
5. Favre (One time Superbowl winner, most TDs and yards all time, but also the most INTs-Has a better career QB rating than he gets credit for)
Honorable mention (in no particular order):
Brees (very cerebral and accurate, makes great reads), Warner (he's revived his career, has the 2nd highest career completion percentage with enough attempts to qualify), Young (Vince, jk...would be higher if he'd started longer..and he did have amazing receivers, a great scrambler too), Marino (great stats, accurate, never won the big game though), Bradshaw (four time Superbowl winner...gunslinger), Starr (Haven't seen enough highlights to analyze him), Tarkenton (I like the old highlights of Tarkenton scrambling around buying time with his legs and then completing passes)
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
I loved reading through all of the QB ranking posts here, and every single one of them is as good as any other. I have to agree with bigunreal's assessment that great quarterbacks are often assisted greatly bytheir surroundings, but that the best will take that experience and be great even with mediocre supporting casts. Look at Montana when he left the 49ers for a stint with the Chiefs. Still great. Favre was great even with the Mangini Jets, until he suffered the arm injury and continued to play. Alworth #19 mentions one of the all-time greats, Otto Graham. His Browns teams were not always that fantastic, but he was the ultimate winner and competitor. I would encourage Caste-ers to take a look at that fantastic QB from the days when football was watchable without a penalty-a-play with the blackletes of today.
Last of all, look at the entire list of players by all of the posters. One thing that they all have in common is that they worked (or work) at their trade ALL OF THE TIME. They are the ones watching film constantly. First to practice and last to leave. Off-season programs designed to make them better. Then there is Vince Young and Jamarcus Russell............
Last of all, look at the entire list of players by all of the posters. One thing that they all have in common is that they worked (or work) at their trade ALL OF THE TIME. They are the ones watching film constantly. First to practice and last to leave. Off-season programs designed to make them better. Then there is Vince Young and Jamarcus Russell............
forty-four
Guru
IMHO (Modern era)...
1. Joe Montana
2. Steve Young
3. Peyton Manning
4. John Elway
5. Brett Favre
1. Joe Montana
2. Steve Young
3. Peyton Manning
4. John Elway
5. Brett Favre
DixieDestroyer
Hall of Famer
I'd go with...
1) Montana
2) Unitas
3) Marino
4) Elway
5) Favre
Young, Manning, Staubach, Bart Starr, Otto Graham & Bradshaw round out my top 10.
***Slingin' Sammy Baugh was one of my favorites.
1) Montana
2) Unitas
3) Marino
4) Elway
5) Favre
Young, Manning, Staubach, Bart Starr, Otto Graham & Bradshaw round out my top 10.
***Slingin' Sammy Baugh was one of my favorites.
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
1. Steve Young- the best ever. Young was very mobile and very accurate
2. Joe Montana- no explanation needed here
3. Peyton Manning- Manning is an animal. Once his career is over he may be the best of all time.
4. Tom Brady- unbelievable stats from a guy who was a 6th round pick and was expected to be only average
5. Elway-was unstoppable in Denver
6. Favre- this guy can win on any team
7. Marino- he set alot of qb records but was sometimes inconsistent that's why he has dropped so far
8. Troy Aikman- noone mentions him here but he was very good as well.
9. Kurt Warner- is very consistent and always finds a way to win.
10. Jim Kelly
My top 10 list would go like this. I don't know much about the old-school quaterbacks so I have listed more recent players.
2. Joe Montana- no explanation needed here
3. Peyton Manning- Manning is an animal. Once his career is over he may be the best of all time.
4. Tom Brady- unbelievable stats from a guy who was a 6th round pick and was expected to be only average
5. Elway-was unstoppable in Denver
6. Favre- this guy can win on any team
7. Marino- he set alot of qb records but was sometimes inconsistent that's why he has dropped so far
8. Troy Aikman- noone mentions him here but he was very good as well.
9. Kurt Warner- is very consistent and always finds a way to win.
10. Jim Kelly
My top 10 list would go like this. I don't know much about the old-school quaterbacks so I have listed more recent players.
Alworth No.19
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Bigunreal,
Good points, of course. As in any sport, the luck of the draw has much to do with a player's ultimate performance. Had Young, for instance, never gotten out of Tampa, there is little to believe that he would be mentioned as one of the greatest QBs ever, although the same talent he always had would been there. Here's an anecdote that supports your points.
After the 1976 season Dan Fouts decided that he was underpaid and demanded to renegotiate his contract with the Chargers. Fouts was represented at the time by Howard Slusher, who was basically the Steve Boras of football agents, who used the holdout as a means of gaining bargaining leverage. In 76, the Chargers had finished 6 - 8, and Fouts, although flashing signs of brilliance, finished year with mediocre numbers and 75.4 passer rating. The Chargers stood firm, so Fouts sat out training camp and the beginning of the regular season. The Chargers brought in James "Shack" Harris from the Rams to run their offense. (Harris was, for all intents and purposes, the first black QB in the NFL, a Grambling grad and pocket passer much like Doug Williams.) The season progressed, and the Chargers were just about as good under Shack as they were under Fouts, bascially a .500 team, but lower scoring. Litigation over Fouts' holdout ensued (I don't remember which party initiated it.) So while the season was progressing Fouts' trial was progressing alongside of it. When Fouts was finally crossed examined, the Chargers' attorney asked him why he believe he was entitled to a new, more lucrative contract. Fouts answered that he believed he was the best QB in the NFL. By all accounts this brought down the house, with the spectators laughing their collective ass off. The Chargers' attorney followed up by asking "Oh,you think you are good as Terry Bradshaw?" and Fouts answered "No, I think I'm better the Terry Bradshaw." Again, general mirth was heard around the court room.
Anyway, after ten games of the 77 season, the parties came to an agreement. Fouts rejoined the Chargers, took over starting from Harris, and had two big games back to back, in leading the Chargers to their two highest point totals of the season. However in the final two games, both losses, Fout stunk it up, throwing no TDs and five INTs in the two games. The Chargers finished 7-7, and Fouts' "I'm better than Bradshaw" crack circulated around the league to great amusement. Then, after a slow start in 1978, the Chargers fired Tommy Prothero as head coach and brought in Don Coryell. Air Coryell was born. In 1979 Air Coryell took off and Fouts began putting up historic numbers, and he was named first team all-pro over, among others, Terry Bradshaw (it helped that the Chargers beat the Steelers 35-7 during the 79 regular season, the worst loss the Steel Curtain suffered during their Super Bowl Years.) Had the Chargers stuck with Prothero, or hired some less innovative head coach, Air Coryell would have never happened, and Fouts likely would have played out the string of a mediocre career. He still would have thought he was better than Terry Bradshaw; he just wouldn't have gotten the chance to prove it. This has probably happened a lot over the years: To be a QB in NFL you have to think that you're as good as anyone, even Manning and Brady; but if you never get a chance to prove it under the right circumstances, no one else will ever know.
Edited by: Alworth No.19
Good points, of course. As in any sport, the luck of the draw has much to do with a player's ultimate performance. Had Young, for instance, never gotten out of Tampa, there is little to believe that he would be mentioned as one of the greatest QBs ever, although the same talent he always had would been there. Here's an anecdote that supports your points.
After the 1976 season Dan Fouts decided that he was underpaid and demanded to renegotiate his contract with the Chargers. Fouts was represented at the time by Howard Slusher, who was basically the Steve Boras of football agents, who used the holdout as a means of gaining bargaining leverage. In 76, the Chargers had finished 6 - 8, and Fouts, although flashing signs of brilliance, finished year with mediocre numbers and 75.4 passer rating. The Chargers stood firm, so Fouts sat out training camp and the beginning of the regular season. The Chargers brought in James "Shack" Harris from the Rams to run their offense. (Harris was, for all intents and purposes, the first black QB in the NFL, a Grambling grad and pocket passer much like Doug Williams.) The season progressed, and the Chargers were just about as good under Shack as they were under Fouts, bascially a .500 team, but lower scoring. Litigation over Fouts' holdout ensued (I don't remember which party initiated it.) So while the season was progressing Fouts' trial was progressing alongside of it. When Fouts was finally crossed examined, the Chargers' attorney asked him why he believe he was entitled to a new, more lucrative contract. Fouts answered that he believed he was the best QB in the NFL. By all accounts this brought down the house, with the spectators laughing their collective ass off. The Chargers' attorney followed up by asking "Oh,you think you are good as Terry Bradshaw?" and Fouts answered "No, I think I'm better the Terry Bradshaw." Again, general mirth was heard around the court room.
Anyway, after ten games of the 77 season, the parties came to an agreement. Fouts rejoined the Chargers, took over starting from Harris, and had two big games back to back, in leading the Chargers to their two highest point totals of the season. However in the final two games, both losses, Fout stunk it up, throwing no TDs and five INTs in the two games. The Chargers finished 7-7, and Fouts' "I'm better than Bradshaw" crack circulated around the league to great amusement. Then, after a slow start in 1978, the Chargers fired Tommy Prothero as head coach and brought in Don Coryell. Air Coryell was born. In 1979 Air Coryell took off and Fouts began putting up historic numbers, and he was named first team all-pro over, among others, Terry Bradshaw (it helped that the Chargers beat the Steelers 35-7 during the 79 regular season, the worst loss the Steel Curtain suffered during their Super Bowl Years.) Had the Chargers stuck with Prothero, or hired some less innovative head coach, Air Coryell would have never happened, and Fouts likely would have played out the string of a mediocre career. He still would have thought he was better than Terry Bradshaw; he just wouldn't have gotten the chance to prove it. This has probably happened a lot over the years: To be a QB in NFL you have to think that you're as good as anyone, even Manning and Brady; but if you never get a chance to prove it under the right circumstances, no one else will ever know.
Edited by: Alworth No.19
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
Brilliant analysis of Fouts and others, Bambi!
Electric Slide
Mentor
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1. Joe Montana
2. Brett Favre
3. Dan Marino
4. Vince Young
5. Peyton Manning
6. Tom Brady
7. Jim Kelly
8. John Elway
9. Troy Aikman
10. Kurt Warner.
Oh sorry, for number 4 I meant Steve Young, not Vince. Hope all of you enjoyed that joke for my 500th post!
2. Brett Favre
3. Dan Marino
4. Vince Young
5. Peyton Manning
6. Tom Brady
7. Jim Kelly
8. John Elway
9. Troy Aikman
10. Kurt Warner.
Oh sorry, for number 4 I meant Steve Young, not Vince. Hope all of you enjoyed that joke for my 500th post!
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
Great post Alworth! Its been fun seeing what everyone thinks about the greatest QBs ever. I used to think Joe Montana was the best, end of story. Now though, I have to consider Peyton Manning. Those two are at the top, followed by Favre and Young, then Elway, Marino, and Brady.
Another all time best quarterback thread. Why not? The best of the best are White men. Hard to judge different eras, so I will limit my top choices to relatively recent times.
Brady, Montana, Young and Manning are the cream of the crop. I favor Brady and Montana because they performed fantastically well with all the chips on the line. MONEY players with ice water in their veins.It is the post season that defines true greatness, separates the men from the boys. The game is played at a higher level. So much quicker, more intense. The pressure on every play is incredible. Young would be next. All three would be close, but Young was a great passer AND runner. No one like him, really. Not so easy to decide.
Manning next. Great numbers, but has not always played well in big games. He has been called a choker ( unfairly in my opinion) he has thrown that monkey off his back. Good for him!
Now I'm going to catch some flak. I am not enthralled with the big armed gunslingers like, Elway, Marino, Fouts and Favre.Fun to watch, but they just throw too damn many interceptions. Drives me nuts. They can look spectacular at times, but kill you more than we'd like to admit.
To me, the TD to INT ratio is a huge factor in evaluating QB's. Most people have no idea. I was watching a Packer game a few weeks ago at a relative's home and this ratio came up. Some of the guys didn't realize it's significance. They didn't know how great the differences can be over a career.McNabb has a very good ratio, but his other stats are weak in comparison to the better QB's.
Young had the best ratio until Brady passed his mark.
Comparisons:
TD'sINT'sRatio
Brady 21692 2.34
Young 2321072.16
Manninng3531722.05
Montana2731391.96
Brees1871081.73
To me Brett Favre is the Pete Rose of football.Numbers accrued by longevity.Both were durable and amassed stats. Pete had more hits than anyone in history, but that does not make him the best hitter. Brett has more touchdowns"¦
Brett's ratio is 1.538. He's thrown 481 TD's and has tossed 313 INT's. both records.Yes, lots of scores, but tons of picks.At 313 INT's Brett would have to have thrown 734 TOUCHDOWNS to equal the ratio of Tom Brady.
To put things in perspective Brett would need 253 more touchdowns without a single interception to tie Tom's ratio.Marino's ratio is similar to Favre's. Elway's is much worse.
Edited by: Bart
Brady, Montana, Young and Manning are the cream of the crop. I favor Brady and Montana because they performed fantastically well with all the chips on the line. MONEY players with ice water in their veins.It is the post season that defines true greatness, separates the men from the boys. The game is played at a higher level. So much quicker, more intense. The pressure on every play is incredible. Young would be next. All three would be close, but Young was a great passer AND runner. No one like him, really. Not so easy to decide.
Manning next. Great numbers, but has not always played well in big games. He has been called a choker ( unfairly in my opinion) he has thrown that monkey off his back. Good for him!
Now I'm going to catch some flak. I am not enthralled with the big armed gunslingers like, Elway, Marino, Fouts and Favre.Fun to watch, but they just throw too damn many interceptions. Drives me nuts. They can look spectacular at times, but kill you more than we'd like to admit.
To me, the TD to INT ratio is a huge factor in evaluating QB's. Most people have no idea. I was watching a Packer game a few weeks ago at a relative's home and this ratio came up. Some of the guys didn't realize it's significance. They didn't know how great the differences can be over a career.McNabb has a very good ratio, but his other stats are weak in comparison to the better QB's.
Young had the best ratio until Brady passed his mark.
Comparisons:
TD'sINT'sRatio
Brady 21692 2.34
Young 2321072.16
Manninng3531722.05
Montana2731391.96
Brees1871081.73
To me Brett Favre is the Pete Rose of football.Numbers accrued by longevity.Both were durable and amassed stats. Pete had more hits than anyone in history, but that does not make him the best hitter. Brett has more touchdowns"¦
Brett's ratio is 1.538. He's thrown 481 TD's and has tossed 313 INT's. both records.Yes, lots of scores, but tons of picks.At 313 INT's Brett would have to have thrown 734 TOUCHDOWNS to equal the ratio of Tom Brady.
To put things in perspective Brett would need 253 more touchdowns without a single interception to tie Tom's ratio.Marino's ratio is similar to Favre's. Elway's is much worse.
Edited by: Bart
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
I found this article online. It is an old article but mentions that in 1981 there were 4 white receivers in the Pro Bowl. http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/PKR0205/608130608/0/REGISTER01
Now check out the comment by Packers receiver coach Jimmy Robinson.
Packers receivers coach Jimmy Robinson has been coaching receivers for 21 years, including 17 in the NFL. Robinson said there's one simple reason why there are fewer white receivers in the NFL than ever before.
"Obviously, it comes down to talent," Robinson said. "Teams are committed to keeping the guys who are the best ones, regardless of color."
I guess we are all wrong here.Edited by: whiteathlete33
Now check out the comment by Packers receiver coach Jimmy Robinson.
Packers receivers coach Jimmy Robinson has been coaching receivers for 21 years, including 17 in the NFL. Robinson said there's one simple reason why there are fewer white receivers in the NFL than ever before.
"Obviously, it comes down to talent," Robinson said. "Teams are committed to keeping the guys who are the best ones, regardless of color."
I guess we are all wrong here.Edited by: whiteathlete33
bigunreal said:
Very interesting post. Lots of good examples. Compelling. Well, some teams may not have missed a beat and their replacement QB's may have performed as well and put up good numbers.
But, the Patriots certainly did not perform as well when Brady went down.
The year before they won all their seasonal games, then defeated all comers in the playoffs. They eventually lost the Super Bowl. They were ahead with only 1:20 seconds left in the game. Bruschi and Seau were high fiving each other after Brady's TD pass put them on top. It was not to be.
Brady's stats: TD'sINT'sYD'sComp % QBRTNG
508480668.9117.2
Cassel's 2111369363.489.4
With Brady at the helm they scored 589 points - with Cassel 410.
Oh, and the Pats finished 11-5 and just missed the playoffs.
Matt Cassel played well, but his numbers and the team's performance suffered greatly without Brady.
foreverfree
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whiteathlete, I couldn't find the Robinson quote in the article you linked.
bigunreal, per http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2008_games.htm ,the Patsies were 2-0, 3-1, 5-2, 6-3, and 7-4 in 2008 before losing the 12th game then winning the last 4. The first 7 wins were by 7, 9, 9, 34, 7, 10, and 20 points. Guess that constitutes a rough start (and middle)...
John
EDIT: Sorry I directed the first paragraph to Bart, not whiteathlete33. I changed the first word accordingly. bigunreal, I forgot to add the pro-football-reference.com link so I have since inserted it above.Edited by: foreverfree
bigunreal, per http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2008_games.htm ,the Patsies were 2-0, 3-1, 5-2, 6-3, and 7-4 in 2008 before losing the 12th game then winning the last 4. The first 7 wins were by 7, 9, 9, 34, 7, 10, and 20 points. Guess that constitutes a rough start (and middle)...
John
EDIT: Sorry I directed the first paragraph to Bart, not whiteathlete33. I changed the first word accordingly. bigunreal, I forgot to add the pro-football-reference.com link so I have since inserted it above.Edited by: foreverfree
Bart said:
Yes that was an interesting point. But after thinking about it I believe the examples were cherry-picked. All of the teams mentioned were ones that played well after the star QB went down but I bet there were many many more teams that failed miserably after the good QB got injured. It is just that those teams are not remembered because they had no lasting success after the starter went down. The point is true however that it is certainly possible for a team to play well after the loss of the starting QB.
I also wonder if that is less true nowadays when teams only play one QB. In the old days QB's were rotated out much more frequently which gave back-ups experience for when they had to fill in.
Also one of the best examples of the sub coming in was Earl Morrell for Johnny Unitas in Super Bowl III in 1969. People forget that Unitas was hurt that year, maybe that's why the Jets were able to win that Super Bowl?