Viktor Bryzgin

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Marian Woronin's 10.00 in 1984 adjusted for a 10.11 and Macro's 10.03 from last year in Mexico City adjusted for a 10.10. Shirvo's 10.03 stayed 10.03. Bryzgin was the only white guy under 10.00.
 

white lightning

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Another great sprinter from a little more recent was
Geir Moen.He had personal bests of 10.08 and 20.31.
He was built very powerfully.He won a european worlds
indoor championship.
 

Colonel_Reb

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Until someone runs a legit 9.95 or so, no one will believe it.
 

bigman

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Bryzgins time is questionable.. Moen was a good sprinter. It seems that tthe frequency of white elite 100m sprinters is very very small...
 

Colonel_Reb

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Compared to the number of black sprinters at the college level and above, I imagine it would be very small, considering the effect the Caste System has had on them.
 

white lightning

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I really believe that there are a pretty good number of
white sprinters in this country if we had a talent
program that started out when they are young.We don't
even really look for them because of the stereotype.If
a small country like germany,poland and greece can have
some,you know a country the size of the U.S. would
have alot more because of our huge population.
 

JD074

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I hope so. But the other possibility is that the genetic difference
is significant enough that blacks may always dominate 100
meters, but not so significant that whites don't have a chance in
other sports. I've been pretty much convinced that there are
whites good enough to compete with blacks in other areas, like
the running back position in football, for example. But I'm not
convinced about the 100 meters. That's the elite of the elite as
far as explosive speed goes.

I'm not an expert, but it seems like there's no leeway there. A
sprinter can't be like Jerome Bettis or Emmitt Smith and get by
on skill and experience. They have to be more like Barry
Sanders.There aren't those "intangibles" that make up for the
lack of elite-level explosiveness and speed. There are
probably a few out there, but the stars haven't aligned just right
for them yet, for whatever reason. I just don't know.
 

surfsider

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My inclination with regard to the 100 accords with you JD074. What keeps me from being 100% convinced is the history of the event. The most dominant factor in the Olympic 100 meters has been not race but the United States. I went over some of this stuff I think in response to Black Guy but in a nutshell...1936 Jesse Owens, 1948 the next Olympics owing to the war, it was a black sweep Harrison Dillard and Barney Ewell of the U.S. and LaBeach of Panama yet 12 years later it was a white sweep Armin Hary of Germany, David Sime of the U.S. and Peter Radford of Great Britain. In '64 Bob Hayes led a black sweep but 8 years earlier in '56 Bobby Morrow and Thane Baker of the U.S. were followed by Hector Hogan of Australia to complete a white sweep.

So for decades, blacks and whites competed head-to-head with sometimes the best sprinters being black and sometimes white. Then, beginning in the mid 60's blacks begin to dominate and American whites all but ceased to exist as a force in the 100 and to a lesser extent the 200 and 400( in '64 the winner was Michael Larrabee. Quite white.). And of course, no white man has gotten under 10 seconds. The strong presence of blacks on the roll of great American sprinting suggests that they may indeed possess, on average, an inherent speed advantage. Yet, I wonder how and why then whites were so long able to run with them timewise or even better them. Why is it that blacks have kept progressing and whites have stalled? Why is it that Bobby Morrow and Thane Baker could run 10.2 50(!) years ago and now it is almost impossible to find an American white that can get under 10.3 on any kind of regular basis. Or, why is it that black sprinters weren't always 2 tenths faster than whites from the get go? Why did that difference only manifest itself in the last thiry years or so? I hope others might find these questions of interest and respond. I can't believe that,even conceding a speed advantage to blacks,that there wouldn't occasionally at least(the numerical odds etc...)be whites capable of running within the same range. For myself, I think many whites are shackled by the presumption of the advantage and therefore shy away from the event. Also, I believe coaches, parents etc. exert pressures subtle and otherwise that influence decisions that keep whites away from the sprints. I think that, as with football and other team sports, sometimes people that should know better just ignore what is right in front of them. Wariner was lucky to grow up in Texas where the color-blind Clyde Hart is coaching but you can't tell me that Andrew Rock shouldn't have gotten a scholarship to a Div. 1 school. I think that talented white high school sprinters are seen as, if not flukes, then as bodies to be made into linebackers, safeties and slot receivers.
Apologies for the lengthy ramble. I'll quit now.
 

Colonel_Reb

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That was good insight surfsider. If we could answer the question you pose, I guess we'd be sitting pretty.
 

jaxvid

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No need to apologise surfsider, it was a good post. I imagine if someone was going to try and answer your question (why the black dominance now, but not then) they might cite the same reasons you feel whites are not as competitive now:

1) blacks did not compete in large enough numbers to feature the "best of the best"

2) blacks were effected by a social ethic to not be better then the white man

Also worth looking at is that nearly all US sprinters are developed in colleges which were either not open or not an option for those blacks that might have been great runners. Although note that this would also be true for whites assuming athletic talent is somewhat inverse to intelligence so the "dumber" non college guys would be faster then the "smarter" guys that went to college.

this is no longer true however as anyone can go to college no matter whether they can read and write or not.
 

surfsider

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Thanks Jaxvid and Reb. I think Jaxvid's first point is certainly a plausible one that might account for black sprinting dominance now. While I agree that blacks were certainly not encouraged by society to prove themselves as equals or better, sports is one of the first best areas where a minority that has suffered oppression can find an outlet to get some sort of satisfaction against that majority. With Jesse Owens being a much lauded Olympic hero especially within the black community I would think that it would only have encouraged more blacks to compete in track. Of course, wanting to and being able to are different things.
 

surfsider

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To play devil's advocate to your first point Jaxvid, I would suggest that the blacks that were able to compete at let's say the high school level and excelled would have some chance at going to college. Owens went to Ohio State(not on a track scholarship though, he worked several jobs between setting world records). The 1936 silver medalist Mack Robinson (like his brother Jackie Robinson) went to UCLA. This is in the early 1930's. Owens and the Robinsons and others blacks that would have been the "best of the best" in segragated high schools were too tempting for some colleges to ignore and would be brought on board one way or another so that the "best of the best" or at least a healthy portion of them would have had a chance to hone their talents at the collegiate level. The schools would be in essence cherry picking the best black talent.
 

JD074

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Great post, Surfsider. It's definitely true that young white
athletes are shying away from track, as well as other areas. It
may be quite a while before the stars align just right. Not too
long I hope.

I think that, as with football and other team sports, sometimes
people that should know better just ignore what is right in front
of them.


That sums it up perfectly.
 

bigman

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I think the talent differential between whites and blacks in the 100M must be a factor.. That and the fact that white kids today are soft, coddled and lack the mental toughness to train hardagainst the odds and produce...they rather shy away from sports that are competitive and take up skateboarding and surfing...it this were not the case we would see aDaveSime or aBobby Morrow every year... but we dont... the country is soft.


Can anyone imagine an american of scotch Irish descent becomeing a jack dempsey today?... NOT.
 
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