UFC 69

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Triad

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Main Card Bouts:

Georges St. Pierre (169.5) vs. Matt Serra (169.5)
Roger Huerta (155) vs. Leonard Garcia (154.5)
Diego Sanchez (168.5) vs. Josh Koscheck (170.5)
Mike Swick (184) vs. Yushin Okami (184)
Kendall Grove (185.5) vs. Alan Belcher (184)
Preliminary Bouts:

Heath Herring (245) vs. Brad Imes (260.5)
Thales Leites (186) vs. Pete Sell (186)
Luke Cummo (170) vs. Josh Haynes (171)
Pete Spratt (170.5) vs. Marcus Davis (169.5)


Lackluster main event but overall a strong card. Sanchez-Koscheck actually hate each other.
 
I am most interested in the Herring and Swick fights here. Don't like Koscheck much and hope Diego embarrasses him.
 
I'm very interested in Diego v Koscheck. There are rumors circulating on the net that Diego and / or members of his family confronted Koscheck and threatened him. Diego seems to be going further and further off the deep end.

On the other hand, Koscheck was challenged by a fan at some club and the guy actually showed up at Kos' studio. Koscheck let the guy in and they went a few rounds. Koscheck went really easy on the guy but still owned him. The guy was grateful afterwards that Koscheck let him into the studio and agreed to roll with him.

At the weigh-ins yesterday, Diego shoved Koscheck and made a scene. I used to like Diego but I'm not sure who I want to win this fight anymore. I'll watch the interviews and the entrances and make up my mind then.

I like GSP but hope that Serra makes a fight out of it.

I am very interested in Swick v Okami as well. Should be a good fight. I hope Belcher KO's Kendall Grove. I have no love for 'Da Spider.' How many guys can have 'Da Spider' as a nickname anyway?

And I'm not sure why Huerta v Garcia is on the main card, unless it's to pander to the Hispanic vote the UFC believes will be tuning in to watch Diego Sanchez.
 
I don't care for Koshchek either, but that Diego, what a little pr'ck. I'll take anyone over him.
 
You guys need to check out the video of the weigh in at www.UFC.com. Diego Sanchez is a d***.

I'm rooting for Koscheck, despite the fact I think Sanchez will own him.
 
WTF? Serra stops GSP in round 1, wow, what an upset!

And Diego gets his first loss.

Does Serra now defend against Kos?
 
Now I know why they put Huerta v Garcia on the main card. By far the best fight of the night. Those guys went at it for the full five minutes of every round non-stop. Huerta wins a UD.

Koscheck wins by UD over Diego. I felt tense watching this fight, but the truth is, it was very boring. Koscheck pecked at Diego for three rounds to win it. Diego hit Koscheck maybe twice during the entire fight.

Serra hit GSP with a looping left hand that caught GSP on the back of the head. He staggered and slipped and got caught on the chin with another shot. He stumbled to the fence, slipped again and Serra was on him raining blows. GSP fell to his back and looked unsure of himself and had no answer. It didn't look like he was KO'd or unaware; he just looked like he couldn't figure out his next move and got pummeled trying to think of a way out.

Grove won with what looked like side arm triangle choke. Belcher was literally put to sleep.

Okami won a decision over Swick in a more or less lopsided win.
 
One has to wonder what the UFC matchmakers are thinking now. Tonight's results shake up the 'mega fight' scenarios on multiple levels.

Did they really think Koscheck had a chance? What about Serra? This killed the build up they'd have had for a Matt Hughes - Diego Sanchez fight, or a GSP-Hughes rematch. But then again, now that some of these other guys have won, it makes alternate matchups that much more intriguing. The welter weight belt has the potential to change hands several times over the next few fights.

Swick was derailed from his marquee matchup against Rich Franklin or Anderson Silva. He was being primed for a title shot but he'll have to win another fight or two now as well. Anybody think Okami could beat Anderson Silva?

Me, neither.
smiley17.gif
 
I was disappointed the Sanchez - Koschek fight was so boring, but not
surprised at the result. I actually thought going in that Koschek was going
to take Sanchez out. I thought Koschek beat Sanchez back when they
squared off on TUF. I was sure at that time Sanchez was given the win
because the UFC is looking to push blacks and browns - due in no small
part to the treatment the UFC gets from the media in terms of the champs
being "too white". Look at the hatchet job the LA Times attempted. Other
people felt Sanchez was given the win in that one because Koschek was
exhausted at the end of the fight while Sanchez looked ready to go. Looks
shouldn't factor into anything, only what's going on in the ring.

GSP being toppled is disappointing, but I have no doubts he'll be back. I
also have no doubt that if Serra has to fight GSP or another decent fighter
for his first defense, the title will again change hands. Edited by: Colonel Callan
 
Colonel Callan said:
I thought Koschek beat Sanchez back when they squared off on TUF. I was sure at that time Sanchez was given the win because the UFC is looking to push blacks and browns - due in no small part to the treatment the UFC gets from the media in terms of the champs being "too white".
Click to expand...

Do you mean Sanchez was the TUF champion because they're pushing blacks and browns, or do you mean Sanchez was given the win over Koscheck because they're pushing blacks and browns? Because I have some inside info that may skew your theory: Koscheck isn't white.
 
I can't believe GSP lost that badly.

How about Nog coming over to UFC? For a minute I thought Dana was going to announce Fedor but it was Nog. So who does he fight first?

Hughes will be WW champ again and retire on top.
 
UFC on ESPN
Check it out, includes Serra highlights.
 
Poacher said:
Hughes will be WW champ again and retire on top.
Click to expand...

Did you see how happy he was after the fight?
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He's probably thinking to himself, "Yes! Now I can fight Serra for the title instead of GSP! Sweet!"


And I have to wonder if upsets like this will negatively impact the UFC. If a champion can be beat by someone who's perceived as a second tier guy, what does that say about so-called "UFC champions?" Don't get me wrong, I still like GSP, and I still think he's extremely talented. And after seeing the fight on Youtube, I have to say I really enjoyed it, and I'm happy for Serra. But I think this downgrades the UFC champs to a certain degree. Compare this fight to Calzaghe/ Manfredo. Although it wasn't a very good fight, the boxing champ did exactly what he was supposed to do against a second tier guy. Edited by: JD074
 
I believe we have a misconception of what constitutes a second-tier fighter in MMA by the mainstream audience, particularly in comparison to boxing.

I don't have any actual statistical date to support what I'm about to say. I am basing what I say on observations I have made over several years as a fan of both boxing and mixed martial arts, and as a participant in martial arts / hand-to-hand training.

I believe the talent pool in MMA is far, far larger than it is in boxing. There are good MMA schools all over the country now. There are BJJ/MMA gyms in places that are hours away from the nearest boxing gym. Instead of having boxing 'smokers' like you used to in the old days, you now have local MMA shows, even in very small towns or communities with only a few thousand people. So there are more people training, more people fighting, and thus harder to judge a fighter by his record when he makes his UFC debut with 7 wins and 3 losses. How good is he really? What has been the caliber of his competition? Truth is we (and even the UFC match makers) can't be sure til he fights a 'known' commodity.

Furthermore, 'promoters' like those in boxing do not yet have the reigns in MMA. They can't pick and choose who they want to ascend to greatness yet, quite as easily as they do in boxing. Even in organizations like Pride and the UFC, where they market certain fighters heavily, those favored often do lose to upstarts or fair poorly and only eke out a decision over previously 'unknown' fighters. The most recent case in point is not Matt Serra, who has actually been training in MMA for over six years, it's Sokoudjou, an Olympic black belt in judo who has just defeated two of Pride's best light heavyweights in back-to-back fights, Nogueira and Arona, by KO's set up with one punch. Sokoudjou's record before his fight with Nog? 2-1.

Because there are no 'boxing promoters' per se yet involved in MMA, you have no one coddling fighters to 20-0 records before they start fighting contenders. MMA fighters are fighting everyone from complete unknowns and contenders from the beginning of their careers. A boxer with a couple of losses on his record at say, 20-2, is almost a journeyman, whereas that's a great record for an MMA fighter.

The fact is there are far more ways to lose in MMA than there is in boxing. It is much easier to KO someone with MMA gloves than boxing gloves. You can be KO'd by punch, knee, or kick, you can be cut by elbows sufficiently to order a doctor's stoppage; and you can be submitted hundreds of different ways by an opponent using any of your four limbs and your head and neck. It isn't surprising that an MMA champion will lose more often than a boxing champion when there are hundreds of more ways one can lose, they're fighting against men drawn from a much larger talent pool than boxing, and the men they're fighting may be new to that organization but that doesn't mean they're new to MMA.

Many of the men who fight in MMA have well-established backgrounds in collegiate wrestling, kickboxing, judo, competitive jiu-jitsu, and other combat sports. Just because a guy is fighting in the octagon for the first time doesn't necessarily mean he has no combat sport experience. Fedor was a sambo player first, Cro Cop a kickboxer, Couture a wrestler, and so on. So a champion who loses to someone who the public thinks is obscure or an also-ran may say more about the public than about the fighter himself. You don't get cauliflower ears from training for 6 months and then stepping into the octagon!

There is also the problem of appearances. People are notorious for assuming that the fighter with the bodybuilder-type, more cut physique will dominate his opponent regardless of whether they know anything about the true skill levels of either man. The more people watch MMA the more they will learn that appearances can definitely be deceiving.

I have been following MMA a long time, but I still underestimate fighters and my predictions are often wrong. We watch a fighter get demolished in a fight on television. Two years later we see that same fighter again for the first time since then, facing another fighter we've been watching regularly for two years. We assume the one we've been watching will demolish the first fighter; after all, didn't we watch him lose to Joe Shmoe two years ago? But we haven't seen the fights he's had since then; we don't know what training he has undertaken to fix holes in his game; we don't know what kind of shape he is in, his current mental state, none of that. It's the nature of the sport right now because there are so many fighters, so many organizations fighting, that we cannot know and keep track of who everyone is fighting and the caliber of their competition. But boxing has so few good fights by comparison it is easier to judge who we think will win. But upsets still happen - Maskaev KO's Rahman; Wladimir out points Sam Peter, and Sam Peter outpoints James Toney?

People point out that there are a lot of upsets in MMA; the truth is there are a lot of upsets in boxing, it's just that there are fewer fights on television than compared to MMA, and fewer fights still that even matter to the average fan. These days it takes a real fan of boxing to order a PPV; but people are regularly ordering an MMA PPV every single month. Six of the largest 8 PPV last year were MMA - not boxing.

So although some will say that GSP's loss to Serra, and other fights like it, is bad for MMA, I think otherwise. I hope instead that people will be inspired to learn more about the sport of MMA itself and the men who fight in it.

The only caveat that I will add is that the more popular MMA becomes, the more the mainstream takes an interest, the more we will see boxing-style influences enter the sport, and along with it, the caste system. So I say enjoy it while it lasts.
 
JD074 said:
If a champion can be beat by someone who's perceived as a second tier guy, what does that say about so-called "UFC champions?"
Click to expand...

If Mike Tyson can be beat by James Douglas, what does that say about so-called "Boxing champions?"

The Serra fight was the biggest upset in MMA history. Do not read into it too much.


Edited by: nevada
 
Can't believe that GSP lost to Serra. That's one of the reasons I love MMA because this kinda stuff can happen at any time, plus contrasting styles make for great fights,quite often. Very disappointed by the Swick loss, he's a devastating striker and I hope that loss doesn't derail his climb up the rankings too much. Shogun, I didn't see the weigh-in. what got you so upset with Diego?
 
Nevada said:
The Serra fight was the biggest upset in MMA history. Do not read into it too much.
Click to expand...

How long have you been watching MMA?
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guest301 said:
Shogun, I didn't see the weigh-in. what got you so upset with Diego?
Click to expand...

The weigh ins were on an elevated stage outdoors. After the fighters weighed in, during the stare down for photos, Diego shoved Koscheck hard enough that he almost fell of the platform. He was mouthing words at Koscheck and had his hands balled into fists. Typical pre-fight antics that we expect from people like James Toney and Hasim Rahman, but not in MMA.
 
nevada said:
White Shogun said:
How long have you been watching MMA?
Click to expand...
The first tape I rented was UFC 4 in 1994.
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Then you have to realize that there have been bigger upsets than Serra over GSP.
 
Good posts! After seeing Diego pull that crap during weigh-in's & his damned Mariachi entrance...I was glad to see Kos win. I'm not a Kos fan, but he did what he had to in order to win (kept it standing, because Diego had the BJJ advantage). Kos looked like a better striker than Diego & fought to win.

I was glad to see Serra bring the strap back to the U.S. I think GSP is a nice guy who's incredibly talented, but I had to pull for the American (even a "Noo Yawka"
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). Hopefully, Matt Hughes will win the strap back asap. I'd like to see Hughes destroy Kos too.

I was hoping Swick would win as well, but I'm betting he'll bounce back strong.

Edited by: DixieDestroyer
 
White Shogun said:
Then you have to realize that there have been bigger upsets than Serra over GSP.
Click to expand...
Several MMA articles have mentioned how big the upset was. Not sure what they were going by. I think Serra was a 10-1 underdog with the gamblers.
 
White Shogun said:
Do you mean Sanchez was the TUF champion because they're
pushing
blacks and browns, or do you mean Sanchez was given the win over
Koscheck because they're pushing blacks and browns? Because I have
some inside info that may skew your theory: Koscheck isn't white.[/
QUOTE]

I know Koschek's background - it was discussed here way back when!
smiley2.gif

However, Sanchez is 'identifiable' as the hispanic, the 'brown' guy, the
kind of guy they want to push. Look as Koschek. They can't really push
him as black. Sanchez has been given a helping hand like Rashad. But
that can only take you so far.

As far as Sanchez goes, I hope he tanks. Can't stand him.
Click to expand...
 
Triad said:
White Shogun said:
Then you have to realize that there have been bigger upsets than Serra over GSP.
Click to expand...
Several MMA articles have mentioned how big the upset was. Not sure what they were going by. I think Serra was a 10-1 underdog with the gamblers.
Click to expand...

I looked up the odds for this fight after reading your post. St. Pierre was -1000 to win. Those are huge odds but I don't know the odds on all the other fights in MMA history, either. But just because people bet money heavily on one fighter doesn't necessarily mean the other fighter is that much of a dog, either.

I'll admit I might be in the minority on this one. In my opinion, Sokoudjou's KO wins over Nog and Arona were bigger upsets than Serra over GSP, and both those fights were just in the past few months. And there are fifteen years worth of fights between UFC 1 and GSP v Serra, not to mention all the Pride FC fights, too.

But what do I know? I thought Sylvia would beat Couture, Gomi would beat Diaz, Sanchez would beat Koscheck, Franklin would beat Silva, Arlovski would beat Sylvia, and Saldana would beat Cro Cop. Okay, kidding about the last one but you get the picture. I thought GSP would beat Serra, too. I just don't see it as the biggest upset in MMA history.
 
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