I love watching the guys in the ufc and pride and think it's truly the best and most "real sport" in the world. I do have a question though for the more knowlegable members of this site. How would legendary fighters like chuck norris(in his prime) and the late bruce lee perform in this kind of tournament? Better question...if the rules were lessened and certain types of kicks, chops and pressure point manipulation were allowed... would guys like chuck liddell and randy couture still be among the best? Are these guys true martial artists in the most deadly extreme sense of the world? I may have watched too many karate movies for my own good. I don't know if my question is stupid or not!
true martial artists
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White Shogun
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Norris was a middleweight kickboxing champion in his heyday, and was supposedly the first guy to ever use a reverse spinning round house kick to the head in competition successfully.
Norris has also undertaken to study Brazilian jiu jitsu with the Machado brothers, and from what I read, has become fairly proficient at it.
Bruce Lee while a phenomenal martial artist did not enter competitions and was only witnessed a couple of times in actual fights, which he won handily. So there isn't any real way to judge how he would perform in the UFC, although I'd bet that he would fair well because he was a true student and would have learned everything available to him about Brazilian jiu jitsu and grappling in general. In fact, before his demise he had already studied judo with Gene Lebell and was beginning to study more grappling and wrestling. His book, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, actually has rudimentary drawings of moves taken from his studies of wrestling and judo.
Both Norris and Lee, I believe, would have been great competitors in the UFC but only because of their willingness to learn and train. The other martial arts movie stars out there like Van Damme and Seagal would get smoked in the UFC. Including Snipes, haha.
As for limiting nerve strikes and pressure points, there are no prohibitions against striking certain pressure points on the body right now. Thigh kicks strike the area of the common peroneal all the time. But if you want to spend your time trying to hit four or five minor nerve points on the arms and chest going for the pressure point KO be my guest; in the meantime be prepared to get KTFO by a punch to the jaw, thrown once with bad intentions and without following a sequential path around the body known only to true masters of karate-do!
Bruce Lee while a phenomenal martial artist did not enter competitions and was only witnessed a couple of times in actual fights, which he won handily. So there isn't any real way to judge how he would perform in the UFC, although I'd bet that he would fair well because he was a true student and would have learned everything available to him about Brazilian jiu jitsu and grappling in general. In fact, before his demise he had already studied judo with Gene Lebell and was beginning to study more grappling and wrestling. His book, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, actually has rudimentary drawings of moves taken from his studies of wrestling and judo.
Both Norris and Lee, I believe, would have been great competitors in the UFC but only because of their willingness to learn and train. The other martial arts movie stars out there like Van Damme and Seagal would get smoked in the UFC. Including Snipes, haha.
As for limiting nerve strikes and pressure points, there are no prohibitions against striking certain pressure points on the body right now. Thigh kicks strike the area of the common peroneal all the time. But if you want to spend your time trying to hit four or five minor nerve points on the arms and chest going for the pressure point KO be my guest; in the meantime be prepared to get KTFO by a punch to the jaw, thrown once with bad intentions and without following a sequential path around the body known only to true masters of karate-do!
I appreciate your responce White shogun. What do others on this board think about the fighters in the ufc and pride being true martial artists in the classic deadly sense of the word. I have met some 7th to 10th degree black belts in some of the classes(various disciplines) I attended and I have raised questions to them about the ufc and they tend to look down on it and/or not take it seriously.
guest301 said:
Why? I would think that it's the opposite: MMA is more of a "real world application" of fighting skill than what one would find in the typical dojo. MMA is a competition, and you have to get actual results from your training, or you'll get KTFO or submitted. There's nothing mystical or dogmatic about it, no esoteric "masters" pulling the wool over their students' eyes. If you're a better fighter, you'll win, if you're not, you'll lose.
Any great martial artist should simply step into the ring/ Octagon and we'll see how he fares. If he refuses to do so, he has no legitimate bragging rights over MMA fighters.
Edited by: JD074
dkr77
Guru
Traditional martial artists look down at and denigrate MMA/UFC for one reason...money. Since the UFC first appeared students of traditional martial arts have been leaving in droves in order to train what really works (BJJ,submission grappling). TMA's know they have an inferior fighting style but refuse to admit it and are upset because the money is leaving their DoJo. Competitors in the UFC and Pride will not waste their time training a style that doesn't bring positive results and that is why 99% of the fighters train some form of BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling. All of these styles have proven effective, especially when combined.
How do organizations like UFC and PRIDE know who the best fighters are and where to find them? Is their sometype of a minor league feeder system where scouts for the UFC go out to find these guys. I am aware of "King of the Cage" but I don't think they consider themselves minor league. Last Question, are guys like Couture and Liddell black belts in their various disciplines before they entered mma?
dkr77
Guru
UFC/PRIDE staff learn about young up and comers in various ways. Generally speaking there are standouts in most teams like Chute box, Miletich fighting, Brazilian top team etc. The head of those teams whether it be Cesar Gracie, Gokor Chivechen, Pat Miletich, or whoever, will usually give a mention to the brass at the UFC on who they think their best competitors are. In addition to this most pro fighters have managers who get a piece of their winnings for finding them fights, especially in the bigger shows like PRIDE/UFC. KOTC and a few other shows like WEC are considered B level events and many of your current contenders have come up through the ranks of these shows by winning and making exciting fights. Minor league shows are cropping up all over the U.S. in local venues and are generally the place where you can get your start and not be thrown in over your head. As far as the black belt question-Randy Couture is an olympic alternate in wrestling and if they gave belts in wrestling I am quite sure Coutures would be a black one. Chuck Liddell I believe practiced Tae Kwon Doe (spelling?) years ago and maybe ranked as high as black, but I am not absolutely sure. The story on Liddell was that he came to John Hacklemans, a karate gym, on a challenge to whip him and Hackelman was so impressed that he asked Liddell to permanantly train with him. Edited by: dkr77
Congrats on becoming a guru dkr77! Your 100th posting. I love both the UFC and PRIDE. I think from top to bottom PRIDE has the more talented fighters but the UFC puts on a better show. Plus guys like Liddell, Couture, Franklin and especially Arlovski(awesome) can compete against anybody.
dkr77
Guru
Thanks Aragorn, It is rumored now that the UFC will be starting their lightweight division again as early as this April. If true we may get to see some great fights at 155. I also read where Randy Couture has signed another 3 fight contract with UFC so win or lose it looks like we will get to see him fight a few more times. The matchup I would like most to see though is Chuck Liddell against CroCop at 205. I know that CC fights at heavyweight but I would bet with the help of a good dietician, say Billy Rush, CroCop could cut to 205. It would would make for an action packed fight with little or no ground work and I could see CroCop eventually winning.
DKR77..I think a CroCop- Liddell fight would be great with CroCop a slight favorite because of superior strength. I like the fact that Couture has signed up for three more fights but you would think age will catch up to him eventually. I don't want to see Liddell-Couture fight too many times. I also would like to see in a dream matchup Arlovski vs. Fedor. That would be sensational. What are the chances of a cross-promotional match like that anyway? Probably not much. I also want to see Liddell avenge his almost fluke loss to Rampage Jackson. He avenged his Jeremy Horn loss and so he may be looking at that one.
dkr77
Guru
It was reported that Jackson will become a free agent in the near future so there maybe a chance of a Liddell / Jackson rematch. We can always hope