The confederate flag

[tnt461]

Blacks think it is a symbol of hate,and because of this I have seen stickers that says heritage not hate on the the stickers. why do have to explain that on the sticker? so buy the real flag and fly it without explaination proudly. Edited by: tnt461

 

[cxt7]

I have noticed a lot more confederate flag stickers on cars recently, They seem to be gaining in popularity, in my opinion i think a lot of white people are starting to view them as a symbol of white pride.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Here in Mississippi, a significant number of blacks see nothing wrong with the Confederate Battle flag, contrary to what we hear in the press. 30% voted to keep our state flag in 2001. It has the battle flag in the canton. Noone ever tells the truth behind the flag or for that matter the Confederate army.
It was, however, used by some "hate" groups starting in the 50's; although that does not change my belief that it is a symbol of a people who were fighting against an oppressive and an increasingly unconstitutional goverment. It was not all or even primarily about slavery, as we are told in our revisionist textbooks.
I'm not ashamed to fly it, and I believe that when we, as a people, become afraid to fly it, or do anything for that matter, because of political correctness, we will lose our identity. Lets not forget that the U.S. flag flew over slavery from the beginning of the country until December 1865, and that the battle flag was only used in battles (hence the name) from late 1861 until the surrender.
Lee freed his slaves by the middle of the war, while good old U.S. Grant waited until the 13'th Amendment passed in December 1865 to free his. Even "Honest" Abe had slaves in his White House.
The Confederacy treated Native-Americans decently, that's something the U.S. cannot say. Why do you think the 5 civilized tribes fought with the South? Because they trusted the South to leave them alone, and because the South had been there home until the 1830's when they were forcibly removed West of the Mississippi River.
If we are ever to try to ban or get rid of the Confederate battle flag, which by the way was never an official Confederate government flag, then we should do the same to our U.S. flag. It is only just. Old Glory has flown above much more human rights violations than the battle flag could ever have been. Confederates certainly never tried to anhialate a race of people as the U.S. did with the Indians. By the way, I'm part Choctaw and part Cherokee.
As for the person who might claim the South tried to kill off blacks through slavery, be reminded that the u.s.(not just Southerners had slaves, and only about 20% of Southerners did have one) slave population was the only one to be self sustaining, proving that they were not treated in a way that would guarantee the extinction of their race. Several Federal states had slaves during the war, Maryland, Delaware, and New Jersey, not to mention Washington D.C. and the western states, Missouri, Oklahoma territory, Bleeding Kansas, and Kentucky.
I inserted those facts for you doubters who might balk at what I'm saying. These are some of my thoughts on the Confederate flag, and I must say that to have an honest discussion about it, the facts which I have presented must be acknowledged, else there will be absolutely no use in talking about it because most people are too programmed and PC, or either too closed-minded to believe anything else.

 

[Don Wassall]

Great post, Colonel Reb. Besides the regional pride and heritage that it represents, many people think of the Confederate flag as the Rebel Flag, the most recognized symbol in the world of freedom and the refusal to submit to authority. That's why it's so enduringly popular and becoming more so.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Thanks Don, I saw the thread and felt like venting! Maybe people will start to wise up on some of these (race) issues before its too late. I'm glad to see that more people are putting on their vehicles and such, as long as it doesn't merge with the whole redneck image thing, which I think tends to degrade the flag in some cases. I know that there are (in most places) more state and Confederate flags up here in Miss since the 2001 flag election.

 

[jaxvid]

I'm from the North and always saw the flag as a symbol of the south. The south is much more united in many ways and I think a symbol of that is appropriate. I actually think it is silly for a northerner to display the flag although many do.

I might also add that I think the Confederate Government was horrible, they nationalized the whole economy and the people too. Their war strategy was poor, and by and large the southern population was less educated then the North. However I am sympathetic to the South in many ways, for instance the total demonization of them for slavery and Jim Crow is absurd.

What I dislike most about the south is that the members of their peculiar institution have found there way up North in large numbers. That is a serious problem.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Jaxvid, I know what you mean and it is a nationwide problem. I'm not exactly sure where you were going when you mentioned educational levels. Rural, newer areas always have fewer schools than older, more populated ones. Some southern states weren't even 30 years old at that time. It's not like they had 200+ year old Harvards and such to go to.
Most CSA soldiers were poor dirt farmers, so they wouldn't be able to go to school, as there were no public schools here yet. One famous Revolutionary said, and I paraphrase-We have no use for luxury as we have no time for them. We must build a country out of this wilderness, maybe after we have done so, our children will be able to concern themselves with education, and then maybe their children will be able to enjoy the luxuries of life.
So you see most poor people in the south at that time saw an education as impractical for what they were doing. Those who could afford it and sought one, often went north for an education or to England. As for our officers, they were the best that West Point had to offer, especially early on. I don't know if this is helpful or not, but like I said, I wasn't sure where you were going with your statement.
I agree that the Confederate government had many holes in it, as it was thrown together over the course of a few months, but I believe that most of our military strategy was sound, as it was not much different than the Continental army's. If we had taken some chances on a few occasions, who knows what might have happened, nevertheless I do not think we had a realistic chance after the first year or so. We could have ended it after 1'st Manassas, but chose not too, big mistake.
I think we should have followed John C. Calhoun's warning in 1850 of the growing disparity between north and south. We should have fought for our independence then instead of 1861, but that's for another thread and another time.
It's good to see a Yankee who will admit that Jim Crow began and thrived in the north well before it became a way of life in the south in the 1890's, and that slavery was not just an institution particular to the south.

 

[jaxvid]

My criticism of the Southern military strategy was in engaging the Union forces in large massed battles where they were sure to eventually lose due to numbers, supplies and technology. After Gettysburg (and Vicksburg, just as important at the time maybe more so from a tactical viewpoint) the South should have broken their Army into smaller guerilla units and preyed on the Federal troops. They had tremendous success doing this in the Valley and out West with Forrest. Instead they choose to let themselves be slowly bled to death around Richmond. For instance small cavalry raids on Northern cities would have stopped guys like Sherman in his tracks as Northern politicians would not have stood for the war coming to their home towns.

As for Jim Crow in the North it was more like voluntary segregation. Neither race wanted much to do with each other (they largely still don't) and that worked OK. It wasn't until certain groups (you know who they are) pushed for forced integretion and we now have the frankly unbelievable level of violence, disruption, and disfunction that chararcterizes our society.

Because we live and have been raised in it most people are not aware of how truly uncivil is our society compared to past eras. It is a legacy we are leaving our children and it is all just so depressing.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Jaxvid, I couldn't agree more. What do you think would happen if a guy walked through Boston with a Confederate flag shirt on? Just curious.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

The reason I ask is that I'm going up there in a few months and I'm thinking of doing just that.

 

[Don Wassall]

I think the only places you might encounter overt hostility is in black neighborhoods, racially mixed neighborhoods, and college campuses. I live near Pittsburgh and the flag can be seen on a fair amount of vehicles in the way of stickers, and the occasional t-shirt. To most people around here who like it, the C-flag stands for having the spirit of a rebel and/or for defiance against oppressive authority as much as for the Confederacy and the South.

 

[bjan]

Colonel Reb, If you go to www.amren.com and scroll down,you will find a story about a worker in Pittsburgh who proudly displays a Confederate flag on his vehicle,and refuses to take it down!

 

[Colonel_Reb]

bjan; Thanks for the link. I just might go ahead as planned and see what happens. I think your probably right in saying nothing would happen. I'm just thinking that some ultra-liberal white may say something, which would be hilarious.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

The latest controversy surrounding my beloved flag is over whether it will be painted on top of the General Lee in the new, and probably pathetic, Dukes of Hazzard movie, like it always has been. I have seen sites who claim yes and no. I guess we'll have to wait until the movie comes out to see. None of the pics that say yes are credible, in my opinion. If it is not on the roof, they shouldn't even make the movie. The car won't be the General Lee without it, it will just be an old 69' Charger. Without the General Lee, there isn't any Dukes of Hazzard. What will the horn play if the car doesn't have the flag on it, The Battle Hymn of the Republic? If the Battle flag is missing from the car, then I will boycott the movie. Just the latest example of PC run amuck.

 

[okra63]

Yes, if the Confederate flag isn't on the General Lee, they might as well change the name of the car.

 

[white lightning]

I'm a die hard Dukes fan and also a mopar man.I have
loved Dodges and Plymouths for years.Especially the
Chargers.I used to have one a while back.Congrats on
getting your car.I would love to have a General Lee.I
do think it will be in the movie.It has to be because
it belongs there.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Absolutely it belongs there. No excuses!

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Well, the Charlotte, NC city council voted to take down a Confederate Battle flag that has been flying over the Confederate section of Elmwood Cemetery for years. Just another example of ignorance on the march. What will they want next, to dig up those men's remains and throw them in a dumpster. I know that would satisy some people, but you can't erase history, no matter how hard you try.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

The current so-called conservative Republican elected officials in Washington are about like the Democrats from 1980. The country as a whole is becoming more liberal. I like to think in terms of conservative and liberal rather than republican or democrat. I am ultra-conservative. I wish the South still had Statesmen (I abhor the use of the word politicians, because they aren't what we need) who would stand up for our Confederate flag, among other things. The only official I know in Mississippi who stands up for our state flag is the Governor. We have a few other weak kneed people who claim to support it, but have waffled in the past. As long as the people vote to keep it like they did in 2001, I guess there will be some support, but just wait until the vote gets close. I have no doubt we will be voting on it again within ten years.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Here's some PC cowardice from city "leaders" in Ringgold, Georgia. Taken from http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=730&NewsID=6 20747&CategoryID=3511&show=localnews&om=0



03/29/05
Randall Franks
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Ringgold Council voted Monday to remove the Confederate battle flag from Ringgold Depot. (Messenger file photo)
... RINGGOLD â€â€￾ The Confederate battle flag at the city's historic depot will come down.

Ringgold City Council members voted 3-2 Monday night to remove the battle flag from the Depot's Civil War monument honoring soldiers who fought in or were from Catoosa County.

Instead of the battle flag, the city will now raise the Hardee/Cleburne flag, the regimental flag of General Patrick Cleburne, who defended Ringgold Gap against Northern forces in 1863.

Since early February several Ringgold residents led by Ringgold's African American community urged council members to remove the Confederate battle flag flying over the Depot stating that it has become a sign of hate.

Ringgold resident Ruby Johnson opposes the battle flag's display.

"We have come down for one reason and one reason only," she told the council. "We did not come here for a history lesson. We know why the Civil War was fought. We came here to ask you to take the flag down.

"We have done this with dignity," she added. Gen. Patrick Cleburne's blue flag with a centered white moon and white border will now fly in place of the Confederate battle flag at the historic Ringgold Depot. (Contributed photo)
"I don't want to keep coming back. We want the flag down."

Johnson said she was pleased with the council's decision. Ringgold resident Keith Guyton cited Biblical teachings as foundation for the flag's removal.

"If it offends someone - don't do it," he said. "Our family cannot spend (money) in Catoosa County because of that flag."

Catoosa County Chairman Bill Clark said that the flag will mean to an individual whatever he or she desires it to mean.

He noted that the Hardee flag does not pay tribute to the approximately 700 local soldiers who got on a train and went to fight for the South elsewhere.

"With the Hardee flag you have failed to honor the local boys," he said.

Roy Neal, commander of Joseph McConnell Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp 1859, told the council it is its choice as to what flag the city flies.

"We didn't put the flag up but we support flying it," he said. "There was no flag flying during the Battle of Ringgold Gap. It was an ambush. It was a fantastic move on (General Patrick) Cleburne's part to conceal his troops."


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Graysville area businessman Bill Thornbury said March 28 by telephone that groups should not pick and choose what is heritage and what is not.

"They want to have their cake and eat it too," he said.

He said that African American groups desire to take pride in their heritage, even celebrating distinct holidays such as Kwanzaa and recognizing their roots here and abroad.

"The Confederate flag is part of their heritage too, and they want to leave that out," he said. "The American flag is the most hated flag in the world. If they want to get rid of the Confederate flag we just better take them both down."

Mayor Joe Barger said the council considered the issue of the historical design when the original landscaping at the Depot was created.

He said that he only wanted the Confederate battle flag to fly if the United States flag of the same era flew by its side.

Councilman Bill McMillon made the motion to bring down the flag and along with Councilmen O.C. Ad******* and G. Larry Black cast a vote to remove the flag. McMillon said the council represents the people that elected them and sometimes despite their own personal beliefs you must vote in the best interest of the whole community.

"If you are going to fly a flag it should be historically correct," he said. "According to some recent research we have been presented from a researcher updating flags for the state, the Cleburne flag was flown here."

Councilman J.B. Petty, who voted against the battle flag's removal, suggested the council consider using the first flag of the Confederacy created in 1861, the Star and Bars, instead of the battle flag but did not make that motion.

"This is one of the most important decisions in my 14 years on the board," he said.

Councilwoman Martha Denton also voted against the change saying that the battle flag honors both the Union and Confederacy.

"I love you all," she told the flag's opposition. "We are not trying to degrade you by hanging(the battle flag)."

Barger said both the Confederate battle flag and the 1863 U.S. flag will be taken down until the city receives a Hardee/Cleburne flag and both flags will be replaced at that time.

 

[Bear-Arms]

Well I'll say this if they take down the Confederate flag. They might
as well tell people who have other flags in their car or home
taken down to. What does the Mexican flag have to with this
country? Is that not Anti-American? It shouldn't be flown in this
country!!!!



Any grade school kid who learned American history knows what the real purpose of the Confederate flag was for. Non-Issue.


Edited by: Bear-Arms

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Just what is the history they are teaching in the schools though Bear-Arms? I'll bet its an anti-Southern history, if any history at all. I bet its full of lies and distortions about slavery, the cause of the war, and the meaning of the Confederate flag. I went to public school in the South and we weren't tought anything about the flag. When I got to college all I heard was how bad it is and how people need to get rid of it. I've heard people equate it with the nazi swaztika and that makes me sick. I think anyone who says that is an ignorant spineless traitor.

As for the real purpose of the Confederate Battle flag, it was designed to be distinguishable from other flags in the field during the civil war. It didn't even come into common use until 1862. The U.S. flag flew over slavery for over 80 years, while the Confederate Battle flag never flew over it. It was simply a battle flag, hence the name. The first official flag of the Confederacy was very similar to the US flag. The battle flag was never an official Confederate flag, but was incorporated into the canton of the last two national Confederate flags. The statements people make about the flag representing slavery are only exercises in ignorance.

The problem, Bear Arms, is that school kids don't know the real history of the flag, the war, slavery, Lincoln, or much of anything really. If they did, they would see no problem with the Confederate flag.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

By the way, my avatar is the last or 3'rd National Confederate flag, which incorporates the battle flag into it. It was never used in battle, because it was designed only weeks before the war ended. It was sometimes called the blood stained banner. Just so you know.

 

[Bart]

Col. Reb, the so-called Civil War, Confederate flags, slavery, Lincoln's actions andmuch history concerning those days is not known to most people.Being raised and taught in the North my education about the war and the South was jaundiced to say the least. Not realizing at the time I was getting only one side of the story.


Over the yearsI've had opportunityto spendsome time in the South for various reasons, finding the people very friendly and hospitable. In fact I 've come to appreciate the colorful regional dialects or drawl and really like the foksiness of a storyteller like Jerry Clowers. Now, I absolutely love Southern Gospel groups likethe J.D. Sumner quartetsand the Grand Ol Opry performers but I'm getting off track.


Since getting on-line a few years ago I have had the chance to read - alternative - writers whose views are much different from those I grew up with. Having been exposed to othersidesI can see why many call the war, "The Yankee war of agression."

 

[Bear-Arms]

I live in Illinois and none of the teachers ever used slavery as a
cause of the war. I know they're some teachers who have biased
opinions of what happened. I guess most kid's here know the
history of Lincoln because he is sort of an icon in Illinois.
Yeah, we learned that Lincoln never set out to free the slaves, and so
forth. I guess it all depends on if you have good teacher's and they
aren't set out to fabricate the truth. I remember in grade school we
even had to color the Confederate flag. It was a project we had
to color all the flags of America, and I doubt they still do that today.