Slow Black Running Backs Play Forever

[Don Wassall]

You're right of course that a lost fumble is worse than a dropped pass. But many times the team whose player has fumbled recovers it.And a dropped pass on third down that would have been a first down is almost as bad as a turnover because it forces the offense to punt or try a field goal.


Many of Robinson's and Jackson's dropped passes have been just awful, passes that any receiver of any age should easily be able to make. It's uncanny the number of times the past few years when I've switched to the Seahawks gamejust in time to see K-Rob drop a simple pass. There's really nothing more infuriating to see than watching a receiver on a team you're rooting for fail to makeeasy receptions.

 

[Bart]

I have seen every single game the Packers have played for many years. Bill Schroeder was definitely singled out and unfairly criticised on many occassions. Holmgren wouldnt choke a black and Favre did not openly castigate any player but Schroeder. Favre has bent over backwards defending Freeman and other players but was overly critical of Schroeder.


Brett has great ability as a QB but also has shortcomings no one wants to talk about. Has a habit of throwing lasers in situations making it impossible to catch a ball. The poor receivers have had ribs and fingers broken by someone who does not throw a friendly ball and whose accuracy is average at best. Brett for being a veteran makes some of the damn stupidest decisions I have ever seen. His receivers often must contort their bodies to catch a throw way over their heads or three feet behind them. Of course if Bill had gotten a finger on the ball he was expected to catch it and was blamed if he didn't. An incompleted pass is virtually never Favre's fault! Last year Brett had a bad game and for the first time I can remember actually blamed himself for playing poorly.


He didn't embrace Bill and therefore many fans and mediaFavrophiles jumped on the bandwagon since Brett is the KIng of Packerland. One more thing, he totally ticked me off when he laid down and letStrahan sack him, allowing him to break Gastineau's record. It was totally disgusting. If Strahan was white and the record holder was black the media would still be talking about it.


And why the heck is a fumble the worst thing in the world? Many times it is recovered by the same team. It's often no more detrimental than an incompleted pass. I would think when Brett throws three four or six picks in a game it would be infinitely worse especially when in the red zone but who cares the king can do no wrong.

 

[Don Wassall]

Bart, you really nailed Brett's shortcomings. He does make a lot of very dubious decisions, and touch when throwing the ball does seem to be a concept he's never understood or accepted. And the pandering to Strahan while going after Schroeder shows that he understands and abides by the racial dynamics that power the NFL.


With all his flaws he's still an all-time great quarterback, one of the few exalted white players in the league, and it'll be a sad day when he retires -- which as we've discussed before the media seems to very much want him to do. He's definitely a throwback when it comes to toughness and endurance, and he can be a lot of fun to watch.


I'd like to see Green Bay dump Mike Sherman and regroup with a coach who is a better play caller, not to mention one who isn't a kneejerk follower of Caste System principles when it comes to putting together a roster.

 

[bigunreal]

Highwayman-



I think that this is really a simple matter. Two very slow RBs, Bennett
and Levens, were allowed to carry the load for the Packers at the same
time they had a very explosive back with great potential-Jervey-who was
held to a standard that they (or no other black RB) will ever be held
to. The diiference in treatment between whites and blacks revolves
around unequal opportunity; all blacks are allowed to make numerous
mistakes as they "grow" as players, while the few whites at skill
positions (and CB) have to be virtually perfect in order to have a
chance at playing. Jervey was no more prone to fumble than countless
black RBs have been over the years. The difference is that EVERY
fumble Jervey (or any other white RB) makes is noticed, commented upon
by announcers and is considered a crucial mistake, while black RBs
fumble regularly and it is never considered a big deal, unless-like
Ahman Green, for instance-it happens so regularly that even the
jock-sniffing announcers can't ignore it. If Bennett and Levens were
white, they would not even be able to make it as blocking FBs, based on
their slow, plodding style. Jervey isn't the best example of a white RB
being denied an equal opportunity (see Brock Forsey, Luke Staley, Rob
Konrad and Brad Hoover in recent times), but it should be obvious to
anyone that race DOES make a difference in how players are treated by
fans, coaches, fellow players and the media. Green Bay is no different
than any other NFL team in this regard, and Holmgren is no different
from the other coaches.

 

[White Shogun]

Well, anyone who reads this site expecting to find no criticism of
white players will be surprised (mortified?) to read Bart's post about
Brett Favre.



My friends and I commented about Brett's poor play this past season,
too. Bart's comments were right on. The last couple of years he
really seems to have let everything go, making poor decisions, throwing
the ball downfield without regard to accuracy, just heaving it up for
his receiver's to make the grabs. That can work well if you have
great WR who can out jump everyone but the guys he's had recently don't
seem to have that skill, hence his increasing number of interceptions.
Six INT's in one game last year. Thats pretty pathetic.



His legendary status is the only thing keeping him on the field at this
point. There is no way you'd start a QB with two or three years in the
league, playing the way Favre has. He'd be benched in a second.



Doesn't mean that he isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer, one of the greats of all time.. just means he should retire.

 

[Highwayman]

Well, gee guys, I guess I won't be having any problem drafting Favre in the fantasy league will I? Do you think I can probably wait until the last round? If there's people who don't think the Packers have anyone who can outjump a defensive back I probably won't have any trouble getting Javon Walker either, will I?

You guys must all be Bears fans!

 

[White Shogun]

Well, gee guys, I guess I won't be having any problem
drafting Favre in the fantasy league will I? Do you think I can
probably wait until the last round? If there's people who don't think
the Packers have anyone who can outjump a defensive back I probably
won't have any trouble getting Javon Walker either, will I?



You guys must all be Bears fans!

Hey, damning Fav-ruh into retirement is one thing, but accusing
everyone of being a Bears fan, well thats downright crazy!

Yes, Favre is still better than a lot of QB's out there, but don't you
agree that he isn't the QB he used to be, by far? It isn't so much a
comparison of Favre to everyone else in the league but of Favre '04 vs
Favre '99.



As for Fantasy Play, you might be able to get Chris Chandler in the
late rounds. He threw six INT's in one game, too. And Kurt
Warner may be available, he threw five, right? lol Just kidding,
I'd still take Favre over .. Chris Chandler.

 

[Don Wassall]

I wouldn't wait too long to draft Javon Walker.

 

[Bart]

Since football is a religion to many football fans I may be forced to change my moniker from Bart as in Starr to Blasphemer for having the gall to challenge the accepted orthodoxy concerning Favre. He is still perhaps the most cherished , revered and well known white athlete in sports. I must hasten to add that my criticisms do not arise from a disrespect or unappreciation of his abilities as a player. He reminds me of a Nolan Ryan or Mickey Mantle in that all were gifted with remarkable physical talent but in my opinion could have ascended to far greater heights.


Nolan should have a much better win loss percentage, not withstanding the fact his teams were not always great. When he was on, he was simply unhittable. In later years he became a better pitcher being more willing to use his awesome curve to set up hitters. If he had learned to PITCH as a Greg Maddux for example he would had far greater success. Mickey Mantle had as much talent and probably more than anyone who ever played the game but if he had been more selective or scientific at the plate he would have been even more astounding than he was. Imagine what he could have done if he learned to train and cherish his body properly.


Brett has been given a bionic arm, no question about it, he can still throw the darn ball through a brick wall. He is as durable and dependable as a tank for crying out loud. He's had a kind of sixth sense when it comes to eluding sacks, truly amazing at times. The worst thing to happen to him in my opinion was being labeled a gunslinger. He relished the role. Did you ever see those 'Three Amigo's' video clips with Mark Chumura and Frank Winters or see him pretend to blow smoke away from invisible six shooters? He's got way too much Jake the Snake and not nearly enough Joe Montana in his makeup. It seems to me he does not change his game when the situation requires. He only knows how to play one way and he makes too many mistakes at crucial times? When he should be cautious he'll still try a very risky throw ! Why ....because he's the free wheeling gunslinger. If only the press and the fans would have been more critical of some aspects of his game, hewould have been more willing to hone his game performing at a higher level.


Brett, Nolan and Mickey, all gifted players who performed amazingly well on the field but who could have, no, should have been even greater. They were slaves to their images. Nolan tried to overpower and strike out everybody. Mick tried to hit the ball a mile EVERY time. And Brett would rather have Madden and Theisman gush over how hard he throws the ball, as if it's a sin to throw a touch pass once in a while. Sports fans love the sizzle more than the steak and prefer style to substance.

 

[Quiet Speed]

There's not much I can add to what has been said about Favre's greatness and faults. It's all true. I'm from around Brett country and we get a double dose of Favre coverage, although it's not as severe as it once was. Just mentioning the idea that Brett needs to tighten up would send some folks I know into shock and disbelief. On a side note, if the Packers don't get their defense straightened out they will be in big trouble all the time no matter how well Brett plays. I've seen ugly defense in my time, but at times Green Bay really takes the cake.

 

[Guest]

Bret favre is still Bret favre. by far the most popular and revered player in the nfl by fans and players alike.I like his gunslinging waysand his ability to lift up a below average team into a playoff contender. He is what he is , gunslinger and all. He's a guy who enjoys the game and would probably play for free if he had to. He's the man, faults and all, which should especially be evident to everybody on this site. period!

 

[Bart]

Well Aragorn, I have seen the old gunslinger shoot himseld in the foot enough times. In fact he's singlehandedly lost more games than we would like to admit. He's had more than his share of chuck and duck throws which hurt the team badly. I didn't say he was not a good quarterback however.


It really pains me to hear that old saw about how he lifts a below average team. Total B.S. The Packers have had some excellent teams and should have gone further in the playoff's several years if it were not for Brett's melt downs. I remember one year we had a big flap in the media about how bad the receivers always are, how poor Brett never had anyone to throw to. I challenged a talk show host on that issue, said they were one of the most productive groups in the league. He said they were not even the most productive in the divison. I found the stats which had the Packers third in the league behindSt.Louis who was way above every team and the Pack was only about 150 yards from #2.


Javon Walker has made some great catches as well as Driver as well as other guys over the years. Do you ever wonder they are always hurt? Favre often throws the ball leaving them very vulnerable. They dive or leap or lay their bodies out trying to catch some errant pass. The Packers almost never use timing plays such as those used by Manning, Warner and Brady. Why, because Brett likes a Sand Lot game, motioning his guys to move here , there everywhere. He almost never throws to a spot, waits for his guy to break and then rifle the ball, by the time it gets to the receiver, two or three guys are also ready to make a play. Sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Guest]

Well Bart, your disdain for bret seems almost pathological to me , almost is what i said. what i meant wheni said he lifted below average teams into the playoffs was that year after year the pack have had pretty bad defences and only a average line and the world's slowest rb,s until green came along. you seem frustrated(me too at times) with bret's gunslinging ways and would like a little more montana in him. that is not who he is and it is not in his makeup to be that kind of qb. i watched the most robotic intelligent quaterback in the 90's in dallas(troy aikman) who when you surrounded him with good to great players always got the job done. I loved him for it but when the talent level went south he couldn,t rise above it. you got what you got with him and you get what you get with bret. what other white player in any sport gets the respect from the black athlete the way bret does, they all virtually stand up in the lockerroom when he walks in and he has always been like elway and staubach the most entertaining unpredictable qb to ever play the game.even if you are absolutely right about bret why would you want to tear him down as we get enough of the tearing down of the white athlete from the mainstream. what's the point' whatever it is; you have made yours.we probably have alot in common just because of the fact that we post here but i hope you move on to something else.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Don said-And the pandering to Strahan while going after Schroeder shows that he understands and abides by the racial dynamics that power the NFL.

I think Bret learned this at Southern Miss in the 80's, where there was already a pandering attitude toward blacks who made up the majority of the roster. That's my 2 cents anyway.

 

[Guest]

i don't know if pandering is the right word but you do what you have to get over in the nfl. black wr's are what puts money in bret's pocket and he does play a type of sandlot game which garners him more respect from black players and i don,t usually have a problem with that when a white player gets over that way as long as he is true to himself. i did disagee with him giving way the record to strahan, (both likeable players by the way) his heart was in the right place but his head was out to lunch and that is the same way he plays sometimes all heart and sometimes his head is not there. i love him for it and he's the type of guy you would love to go to war with.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Good points Aragorn777, Bret is a competeitor, and that's why I don't like to see him pandering to guys like Strahan. He shouldn't give the record away. Edited by: Colonel_Reb

 

[Don Wassall]

I'm not so sure I want to go to war with a guy who rolled over and played dead for the enemy (Strahan). There was absolutely no excuse for that, ever. That being said, I agree with Bart and aragorn about Favre. He is what he is, which is basically a great quarterback, but he does have his share of shortcomings, a few of which are on the infuriating side.But after all this time in the league he's not likely to change now. I know I don't want to see him retire and will feel sad when he does.

 

[Guest]

With all due respect Don and i think much is due. Strahan was not the enemy in the traditional sense of the word , they were friends and green bay had the game well in hand; that's why Bret did it. It was a wrong thing to do but forgivable considering all that he has accomplished.I stand by the going to war with bret comment. Gastineau should still have the record and i can understand if he can't forgive bret, but lets look at his wonderful career in a much larger context.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

This is a very contentious debate guys, and I can understand it from both perspectives, but if I were in Bret's shoes, I wouldn't have given up the record, not for a minute. I wouldn't care if it was my garndmother who was going for the record, I wouldn't "give" it to anyone.

 

[Don Wassall]

They were "at war" in that game. You never give your opponent a free touchdown, reception, sack, whatever, under any circumstances. It doesn't matter if they were friends off the field or that the game was one-sided.I would hope that one of Barry Bonds' or Mark McGwire's "friends" would never deliberately throw an easy fastball down the middle in a 12-1 game justso they could set a homerun record. Or that the Packers defense would stand still for a play just so that a well-liked running back could set a rushing record in the last game of the season (come to think of it Green Bay's defense didthat all last year anyway!)


I agree thatBrett Favre hashad a wonderful career and his durability is unmatched and he has some terrific leadership qualities. Butgiving Strahan the recordwas a huge, inexcusablemistake and very disrespectful to the integrity of the sport.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I have to agree with you Don. You just don't throw away things like that.

 

[Bart]

Col Reb. your two cents worth in this regard is actually priceless. One of the most annoying things to me is watching a player pander to blacks . Favre being from Mississippi is without a doubt well aware of the racial dynamics of our culture and football. He has gone out of his way to embrace Waren Sapp and Strahan and a host of others.I believe one of the reasons for his treatment towards Schroeder was friction in the locker room.Since the black guys weren't overly friendly to him, no one was supposed to be. I bet there are lots of similar stories in the NFL. When I was a kid I was in the same type of situation in a work place and it still bugs the tar out of me.


Kerry Collind, Romamowski, Jeremy Shckey and even Troy Aikman ( I read) felt some heat for not kow towing or showing enough deference.


Anyway If nobody agrees with my views on Favre, I don't give two hoots. This is a sports discussion group, we all have personal viewpoints. If you want to discuss statistics and comparisons I would be more than happy to oblige.


Maybe Troy was not as talented as Brett but evertime we played Dallas he outplayed Favre. If we exchanged qb's the Pack would have won some. I wouldprefercerebral Qb's like Montana, Young, Unitas,Starr, Staubach and Brady anytime overso-called dazzlers.Did somebody say Staubach was unpredcitable?

 

[Guest]

You are right it was a mistake, and i'll even grant a stupid thing to do but when i look back on his career that incident won't make the top ten. I am a huge cowboys fan and i grew up hating the packers because of the game's in the late 60's that i always read about. bret favre changed my hatred of the pack and i like the fact that they are a publically owned team with a five year waiting list for season tickets. He's still the man and the last thing i ever expected to do was to ha e to defend bret favre on this site. but it's been fun and i hope it has not been taken personally by anyone.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

We take very few things personal on here aragorn777, so don't worry about it.

Bart; I know exactly what you're talking about, that's why I said what I said. I know favre experienced this in Hattiesburg, and became part of it in the NFL. USM has been the blackest college team in Mississippi since the teams were integrated. Go back and check out some of Favre's college games from the late 80's. The make-up of their team looks barely different than it does today. The caste system was there even then.

 

[Guest]

Staubach was unpredictable in his style of game. great and my favorite player all time but there is a reason landry did not play him early on in his career and instead played a far less talented craig morton. landry was procbably wrong about that but staubachs style of play ended his career early because of all the concussions he suffered. bart the near pathological comment i made about you was probably below the belt considering that this is not a life or death subject matter. i apologize if you were taken aback by it.I love bret and his style of play and i tend to be loyal to the people i admire and i don't apologize for that.