Rahman v Toney

[White Shogun]

Hey, it wasn't PPV, it was live on HBO so I watched it.

The pre-fight commentary featured an expose of each fighter. Believe it or not, Rahman was described in his youth as a 'nerd,' and was made fun of for being smarter than his friends. He gave up his middle class lifestyle and joined a gang, becoming an enforcer for drug runners. He later left the lifestyle to focus on boxing.

Now, if you've ever heard this man speak, one would be hard pressed to describe him as a 'nerd.' His transition into a drug gang from a middle-class background of course belies the notion that all such afflicted black youth grow up in poverty.

The fight itself was interesting enough, although definitely not worth a PPV fee, had it been offered as such. Rahman actually out-jabbed Toney and outworked him throughout the fight, but of course the fight was ruled a MAJORITY DRAW. One judge had it 117-111 Rahman, which would be accurate enough give or take a round, but the remaining two judges scored it 114-114. Even Freddy Roach in Toney's corner, before round 12 began, told Toney he had to hurt Rahman or knock him out to win the fight!

For some reason, the powers that be in boxing want James Toney to stick around in the heavyweight division. Watching fights end with these kind of decisions makes me want to avoid boxing altogether, and gives me serious doubt that Wladimir can win next month against Byrd without a knockout.

 

[ironfist]

After watching this fight,it made me sick. Vitali would have destroyed Rahman. Vitali please come back. America needs you.

 

[ocaamikedm11]

Some nice press for Valuev in the pre-fight commentary also. It was a pretty enjoyable fight, although I wasn't overly impressed with either, Toney comes in a little slimmer and he may have faired better, as was mentioned about a million times throughout the fight.

 

[White Shogun]

Rahman showed more weaknesses than Toney did, despite winning the fight overall in my opinion. For one, he couldn't put Toney down. He had no defense most of the night, and had he fought a true heavyweight Rahman would have been knocked out.

As has been pointed out, Toney's biggest flaw, besides his big mouth and bigger ego, is he is out of shape and naturally a much smaller man than most heavyweights.

I think Wlad or Brewster either one would have put the KO beat down on both of these guys. Maybe one of these days we'll get to see that, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[white is right]

That fight might have been the worst titlefight I have ever seen. That's with all the Ruiz titlematches and the crying game fight with Lewis vs McCall. As Robotic as Vitali was at times at least he looked dominant. Rahman was HHHHoribble and Toney looked like a circus freak.........

 

[ironfist]

Valuev is a big bum. Brewster is a fraud. Wlad is the best Heavyweight out there and he will prove it on April 22.

 

[ocaamikedm11]

I hope he does. But the fact that even mention Valuev and how the fans want to see this guy fight is certainly good press for White boxers. Wlad should dominate this division, but he's let us down a few times in the past when he was supposed to take that next step.. but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Maple Leaf]

For 2 weeks prior to the Rahman-Toney fight I posted on East Side Boxing why Rahman was going to win. Rahman did win regardless of how the fight was fixed. And if judging can be fixed so can the "punch count". It should be no surprise that Toney looked bad. Obviously he is too short and too heavy for his body. There is much more to it than that. If you know your history, a middleweight has never been heavyweight champion. Why would they? That's why we have different weight classes.
So why should Toney be any different? Another thing is Toney simply does not have the power to be a heavyweight. Toney has the weight but his weight is not dense. Fat is lighter than muscle, muscle is lighter than bone, and a true heavy needs the bone structure. Essentially, Toney is at best a 200 pounder and that is just too small to be a heavyweight.
Of course, the boxing experts call him a "defensive genius" ,or "old school master", and so on. But what would the experts say if Toney was white?

 

[White Shogun]

If you know your history, a middleweight has never been heavyweight champion.

Uh.. have you ever heard of Roy Jones, Jr?

 

[Maple Leaf]

Shogan: RJJ beat a heavyweight, yes, but that feat didn't make RJJ the heavyweight champion. It just meant he earned a heavyweight belt. Harry Greb once beat Tunney, but so what. My point was, middleweights don't make heavyweights. And this is true.

 

[guest301]

Shogun was just pointing out that your statement was factually incorrect. If Roy held the heavyweight belt then indeed he's a middleweight turned heavyweight champion. I get your point though, it's usually not wise for a middleweight to step up to a heavyweight class, most would get their heads handed to them.

 

[White Shogun]

Arguing that RJJ was not a heavyweight champion because of the quality of belt he held or quality of opposition he faced is like saying that the winner of the World Series isn't really a "world champion," because they didn't beat the best in truly international competition. Its true on the face of it, but the winner of the Series is still considered 'world champion.'

Yes, Ruiz was an awful champion, but he held the belt and lost it fair and square to RJJ, a man who started his career as a middle weight. It was billed as a heavyweight title bout, and RJJ will go down in the record books as a middleweight-turned heavyweight champion.

Boxing has become so corrupt to the point that none of the belts really seem to matter anyway, for example look at the Zab Judah - Floyd Mayweather bout. Judah lost and doesn't deserve that fight - but he will get it anyway. At least the man who won that fight actually won it, unlike Sturm over Delahoya, when there was 0 chance they'd give the win to Sturm and jeopardize Delahoya's multi-million dollar fight with Hopkins later that year. In this case, Zab lost and they gave him the big money fight anyway.

As long as the boxing public continues to shell out money for ridiculous PPV matchups, this is all we're going to get. How else can you explain the fact that a guy like James Toney is considered a marquee matchup??

I hope Wlad beats Byrd, but even so there is no way to know if we will ever see Wlad v Rahman, or Wlad v Brewster again. More than likely the other fighters will take a shot at Valuev for the PPV freak-show dollars first. Who knows after that?

 

[Maple Leaf]

Ok what I meant was The recognized champion. Holding one of the belts does not make a fighter The champion. But I only made the point to show how, all things considered more or less equal, the smaller man must lose as history tells us.

 

[white is right]

The only middleweight to hold the real heavyweight title did it when a decent sized heavyweight was about 190 pounds. Ruiz was handpicked by Jones because of his sloth like movement and predictable style. The funny thing is if Ruiz fought with his manlove style he might have been able to wrap Jones up and have taken his legs away. Instead he tried to box Jones and he got beaten to the punch all day.........

 

[guest301]

manlove style

 

[Gary]

Vitali never looked like a robot he was a well-conditioned fighter who was never even behind in one of his fights. He could come back now and still be the best-nobody in there right mind thinks Rahman/Toney could last 8 rounds with Vitali.

 

[Gary]

Travis Kaufman ,Roman Greenberg, Shannon Miller, Lou Saverese, J.D Chapman all won this weekend. Rahman must now face his worst nighmare-fight Maskaev again. Toney can fight Sultan Ibragimov. Calvin Brock should fight Timor Ibragimov or Ruslan Chageav. The time has come for White men to take total charge of the heavyweight class.
No I don't want all black fighters to leave-we need them to beat on. What better way for a Russian man to earn a living then to whip colored boys and get paid big money.

 

[JD074]

I hope he does. But the fact that even mention Valuev and how the fans want to see this guy fight is certainly good press for White boxers.

Unless he loses, and then any hype that he gets now will backfire pretty badly. "Oh, the big slow white guy's no good! I knew it!"

 

[Maple Leaf]

I don't think Wlad should have much trouble getting a decision in Germany where he has fought many times and is his "home away from home". And I don't mean he'll need the judges help either. Byrd doesn't hit very hard, (he also started his career at middleweight but has never been recognized as the undisputed champion)and Wlad is by far the best heavyweight boxerout there. He really is loaded with skills: lead left hook and all. The question really should be asked: what does Byrd have to beat Wlad?
And while Wlad's the subject, I'm sure you all have heard about Wlad's "weak chin" somewhere on the net.
Well he's been knocked down and lost a couple of times.
Again, ask yourselves the question: Ali was knocked down, is he said to have had a "weak chin"? Foreman was knocked down many, many times during his career, and lost fights that he was knocked down in, is he said to have had a "weak chin"? Tyson was knocked down many times and lost also as a result, is he said to have had a "weak chin"? Its worth thinking about.

 

[speedster]

George Foreman in his first go around,69-77,was decked several times including hitting the canvas against weak-hitting Jimmy Young,but in his comeback George was not knocked down.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Speedster: have you ever heard anyone say Foreman had a weak chin regarless of when?

 

[speedster]

George has had a long career,but no I don't recall anyone talking about him having a weak chin.

 

[Gary]

Foreman's problem was stamina. As a young fighter after 8 rounds he was blowing like an old lady on a treadmill. His lost to Clay was more from tiredness then from any of Clay's punches. Foreman knew to duck Jerry Quarry, after Quarry took Ernie Shavers apart in 1 round he was forever off Foreman's list.