NFL Week 13

[davidholly]

Falcons vs Saints game tonight, the most we can hope for in this game is that Brees and Ryan have a good night.

 

[dwid]

Falcons vs Saints game tonight, the most we can hope for in this game is that Brees and Ryan have a good night.

used to be worse, looked like the pro version of the Bayou Classic back when Aaron Brooks faced his cousin Michael Vick.

The Saints have been targeting the White tight end David Thomas a little more (still not much), and Jed Collins has gotten a few targets.

The way Michael Turner just sliced through the defense shows how awful the defense is. Still ranked 32nd, despite the announcers trying to hype up Colin Kaepernick's performance last week by saying "they're ranked 32nd but they've been improving a lot"....which some how still leaves them ranked at 32? hah come on.

what ever happened to Kerry Meier? are we supposed to believe Harry Douglas is superior? He is timed faster in the 40 but doesn't look it. His longest catch is 26 yards, averaging 9.5 per catch. 6'0 183 pounds.

 

[davidholly]

Brees TD streak looks to be at an end.

 

[davidholly]

I want Atlanta to win this game so bad, these refs have a stiffy for the Saints it seems.

The Brees TD streak is officially at an end no matter how much the refs tried to save it.

 

[GWTJ]

I want Atlanta to win this game so bad, these refs have a stiffy for the Saints it seems.

The Brees TD streak is officially at an end no matter how much the refs tried to save it.

Couldn't agree more. The last five minutes of this game is a classic example of why the integrity of the NFL should be in question.

I don't support the 'every play is scripted' accusation but how often must I see this blatant manipulation of a game and still be told I am crazy for questioning the motives of the NFL powers that be.

 

[dwid]

I want Atlanta to win this game so bad, these refs have a stiffy for the Saints it seems.

The Brees TD streak is officially at an end no matter how much the refs tried to save it.

...I think if they were really trying to save it they wouldn't have called the penalty on Graham for the (would be) td pass Brees threw to Sproles.

54 consecutive games with a td is an amazing accomplishment, especially with the receivers he has. Lance Moore the go to guy? Colston? Jimmy Graham was the one good reliable target and he has declined this year, not even close to being the equivalent to Gronkowski like the media has hyped him up to be, he couldn't get separation from a defensive end today.

and why would they want Atlanta to lose? they aren't exactly a White friendly team, far from it besides Bierman finally getting to rotate in at DE, even though he has proven himself time after time.

keeping the td streak alive for Brees, what exact purpose would that serve the powers that be again?

Someone needs to fill in the blanks for me on that one. Does that help black quarterbacks like RGIII? The longer the streak goes the more improbable it is that any black quarterback will even come close to it. Serioulsy, how is it a bad thing for a White qb to have a streak like that?

Maybe the Saints should have hired bigunreal to help with the situation out there today, I mean they were in the redzone 3 or 4 times today, inside the 10 yard line. Why couldn't they just get one of those cheap touchdowns that are supposedly so easy to come by?

 

[Don Wassall]

...I think if they were really trying to save it they wouldn't have called the penalty on Graham for the (would be) td pass Brees threw to Sproles.

54 consecutive games with a td is an amazing accomplishment, especially with the receivers he has. Lance Moore the go to guy? Colston? Jimmy Graham was the one good reliable target and he has declined this year, not even close to being the equivalent to Gronkowski like the media has hyped him up to be, he couldn't get separation from a defensive end today.

and why would they want Atlanta to lose? they aren't exactly a White friendly team, far from it besides Bierman finally getting to rotate in at DE, even though he has proven himself time after time.

keeping the td streak alive for Brees, what exact purpose would that serve the powers that be again?

Someone needs to fill in the blanks for me on that one. Does that help black quarterbacks like RGIII? The further the streak goes the more improbable it is that any black quarterback will even come close to it.

Maybe the Saints should have hired bigunreal to help with the situation out there today, I mean they were in the redzone 3 or 4 times today, inside the 10 yard line. Why couldn't they just get one of those cheap touchdowns that are supposedly so easy to come by?

:thumb: Very well said. If NFL games are "fixed" or "tweaked" the only plausible explanation is for point spread purposes, in other words to help out organized crime on the gambling front, as the racial explanation has absolutely zero credibility as bigunreal has unwittingly demonstrated time and again.

 

[davidholly]

Most of the questionable ref calls come at the end of games. The called back Brees touchdown took place when there was still plenty of time for Brees to get another TD. When Brees was unable to get a TD in crunch time then the refs started to try and give him one.

This isn't to say I have anything against Brees, just that the refs have something for him.

 

[dwid]

Most of the questionable ref calls come at the end of games. The called back Brees touchdown took place when there was still plenty of time for Brees to get another TD. When Brees was unable to get a TD in crunch time then the refs started to try and give him one.

This isn't to say I have anything against Brees, just that the refs have something for him.

refs make bad calls/ bad no calls the entire game, usually on both teams. I think people just pay more attention at the end of games when its on the line. What does it matter when the td happened? if they don't make the call (something like that slides often) since "they have something for him" then the record continues, end of story. Unless they wanted Atlanta to win and Brees to get the record...I'm not buying that. Were they thinking "we aren't going to help him keep the streak alive unless we absolutely have to at the end....we want him to score but its too early in the game, what if he scores again and wins? we can't have that"?

 

[davidholly]

what does it matter when the td happened? if they don't make the call (something like that slides often) since "they have something for him" then the record continues, end of story. Unless they wanted Atlanta to win and Brees to get the record. Were they thinking "we aren't going to help him keep the streak alive unless we absolutely have to at the end"?

Maybe some refs have a vested interest in keeping the streak alive or maintaining a spread. I understand where you're coming from but those last 5 minutes were just appalling. The Saints vs Chargers game was also like this.

 

[dwid]

Maybe some refs have a vested interest in keeping the streak alive or maintaining a spread. I understand where you're coming from but those last 5 minutes were just appalling. The Saints vs Chargers game was also like this.

I think Don said it best, IF there was something fishy it was for the spread. I really don't think these refs care about keeping the td record alive for Drew Brees, I mean seriously, what purpose would that serve, what would they gain from that? I believe the Saints were 3.5 underdogs, they score a td then its 23-20, so that puts the Saints ahead if you bet on them, but it didn't happen so if the refs were trying to pull something like that then there would probably be some people pissed off at them. So even maintaining the spread thing has holes in it. Everything would have to fall into place for the team to be within one touchdown of winning (with the 3.5 points) and then the refs start throwing flags...They can't influence the interceptions, the stops that led to field goals etc. Only a small influence which would still require work. The most power they seem to have is being able to demoralize a team with a bunch of bad calls/no calls to the point where they self destruct, which seems to happen in college football more than pro.

 

[GWTJ]

The bottom line is that I saw something that didn't look on the up and up. And I was not the only one who saw it. I have no doubt that scanning the NFL forums would bring many other comments about this from people who saw the same thing. And while other posters can question me for seeing it I can question those same posters for NOT seeing it.

I don't need to give any reason to any other poster as to why the NFL or the refs would want Brees to keep his TD streak alive. It's a fruitless argument anyway since all of us are on the outside looking in. It seems like an obvious answer anyway but an unprovable one.

 

[bigunreal]

Just for the record, I actually maintained that if games are fixed, they wouldn't necessarily be fixed strictly for racial purposes. Otherwise, as Sport Historian and others have pointed out to me numerous times, Michael Vick and other black quarterbacks would have been handed Super Bowl wins.

I think everyone recognizes that referees do a pretty bad job of officiating games. Why is this accepted? These games have a ton of money riding on them, and considering how controlled every other aspect of our society is, why do we assume that the powers that be would not have a huge vested interest in the outcomes?

Just wanted to clarify....

 

[sport historian]

Just for the record, I actually maintained that if games are fixed, they wouldn't necessarily be fixed strictly for racial purposes. Otherwise, as Sport Historian and others have pointed out to me numerous times, Michael Vick and other black quarterbacks would have been handed Super Bowl wins.

I think everyone recognizes that referees do a pretty bad job of officiating games. Why is this accepted? These games have a ton of money riding on them, and considering how controlled every other aspect of our society is, why do we assume that the powers that be would not have a huge vested interest in the outcomes?

Just wanted to clarify....

Well, you are finally admitting the truth of our argument. Namely, if the NFL and the corporate sponsors fixed the games, there would have been many more black QBs winning Super Bowls.

By the way, you DID argue that games were fixed for racial reasons.

 

[Don Wassall]

Just for the record, I actually maintained that if games are fixed, they wouldn't necessarily be fixed strictly for racial purposes. Otherwise, as Sport Historian and others have pointed out to me numerous times, Michael Vick and other black quarterbacks would have been handed Super Bowl wins.

I think everyone recognizes that referees do a pretty bad job of officiating games. Why is this accepted? These games have a ton of money riding on them, and considering how controlled every other aspect of our society is, why do we assume that the powers that be would not have a huge vested interest in the outcomes?

Just wanted to clarify....

Talk about chutzpah! How often have you "maintained" that in your endless posts about sports events being "scripted" down to each individual play? Time after time you've only mentioned your obsession when a White player had a bad game statistically or a black player had a good game. Then, when challenged by simple logic such as Sport Historian's question about black QBs winning the Super Bowl, your response has either been "I don't know how they do it" or more commonly no response at all. Yet you would still write the same inane crap the next week without fail.

Anyone with a shred of common sense and a memory better than that of a doorknob knows what you've been "maintaining" for years now.

 

[bigunreal]

Don,

You continue to claim that I believe every play in every game is scripted. I've used the term scripted several times, but not in the context you do. You twist that in an attempt to ridicule me, throwing in "tin foil hat" references for good measure.

Look up my old posts- you'll find one of my main arguments was that just because we would assume fixed games would be rigged in favor of the Vicks and Scam Newtons, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. When you have the kind of money involved here- point spreads, numerous past allegations of mobster connections to players and owners, I don't see how someone as astute as you are can maintain it's ludicrous to say the games aren't legitimate. Do you believe boxing is on the up and up?

It's clear you have a personal animosity towards me, which is curious since we have no personal relationship. I was one of your earliest supporters, and have steadfastly railed against the Caste System. Yet you continue to pick away at my posts, question my motives and attempt to belittle me on your forum. I have received numerous personal messages of support from members here, but they seem to fear doing so publicly on the forum. Do you desire to be feared by posters here?

We agree on almost all political issues, and I have never criticized you personally. You continue to disrespect me and distort my posts about games being fixed. As I've noted, there is a best selling book out about the subject, "The Fix Is In." This is not a marginal issue any longer, and I am not a "kook" for suggesting the games are not legitimate.

You cannot answer me, so you attack the messenger. Why you have such trust in a corporate entity that is corrupt to the core, that willfully plays less skilled players because of their skin color, that weekly features games in which "controversial" calls swing the outcome one way or the other, is something only you know.

You'e started a web site devoted to exposing the dishonesty of the NFL, yet you defend them fiercely whenever I allude to their games being fixed. You've consistently claimed I said every player would have to be involved in fixing games, when I've said very clearly that the referees alone have the power to determine the outcome of most games.

You accuse me of not supporting white players, when I chastise whites for not supporting their white teammates, and unnecessarily propping up blacks who are in competition with white WRs or RBs. At the same time, you are totally silent when Sport Historian supports the Caste System you are devoted to fighting with almost every post he makes. Your reply that his posts are informative is absurd- many of his posts are along the "I remember watching the Bears and Giants in 1962. Frank Gifford played both WR and Rb" type of thing.

If any other poster urged those on the forum to watch productions like "A Football Life," featuring the likes of Ray Lewis, you'd probably ban them as a troll. I have no animosity towards SH- I don't care about what he posts, but he clearly has an animosity towards me, and you clearly back him up all the time, even when he says Jerry Smith doesn't deserve to be in the HOF while Charlie Sanders does, or that Paul Krause was overrated.

Sorry for the length of this rant, but I don't deserve this- again, I didn't bring up fixed games on this thread. Others are obviously noticing things in games as well, but if I try to clarify my position, then you are instantly there to tell me that you know how I actually feel, and are a better judge of what I'm saying.

 

[dwid]

Paul Krause is definetely not overrated, I would say underrated. When Vikings fans started talking about Harrison Smith and his skin color someone brought up Krause, most people didn't even know who he was.

 

[white is right]

Don,

You continue to claim that I believe every play in every game is scripted. I've used the term scripted several times, but not in the context you do. You twist that in an attempt to ridicule me, throwing in "tin foil hat" references for good measure.

Look up my old posts- you'll find one of my main arguments was that just because we would assume fixed games would be rigged in favor of the Vicks and Scam Newtons, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. When you have the kind of money involved here- point spreads, numerous past allegations of mobster connections to players and owners, I don't see how someone as astute as you are can maintain it's ludicrous to say the games aren't legitimate. Do you believe boxing is on the up and up?

It's clear you have a personal animosity towards me, which is curious since we have no personal relationship. I was one of your earliest supporters, and have steadfastly railed against the Caste System. Yet you continue to pick away at my posts, question my motives and attempt to belittle me on your forum. I have received numerous personal messages of support from members here, but they seem to fear doing so publicly on the forum. Do you desire to be feared by posters here?

We agree on almost all political issues, and I have never criticized you personally. You continue to disrespect me and distort my posts about games being fixed. As I've noted, there is a best selling book out about the subject, "The Fix Is In." This is not a marginal issue any longer, and I am not a "kook" for suggesting the games are not legitimate.

You cannot answer me, so you attack the messenger. Why you have such trust in a corporate entity that is corrupt to the core, that willfully plays less skilled players because of their skin color, that weekly features games in which "controversial" calls swing the outcome one way or the other, is something only you know.

You'e started a web site devoted to exposing the dishonesty of the NFL, yet you defend them fiercely whenever I allude to their games being fixed. You've consistently claimed I said every player would have to be involved in fixing games, when I've said very clearly that the referees alone have the power to determine the outcome of most games.

You accuse me of not supporting white players, when I chastise whites for not supporting their white teammates, and unnecessarily propping up blacks who are in competition with white WRs or RBs. At the same time, you are totally silent when Sport Historian supports the Caste System you are devoted to fighting with almost every post he makes. Your reply that his posts are informative is absurd- many of his posts are along the "I remember watching the Bears and Giants in 1962. Frank Gifford played both WR and Rb" type of thing.

If any other poster urged those on the forum to watch productions like "A Football Life," featuring the likes of Ray Lewis, you'd probably ban them as a troll. I have no animosity towards SH- I don't care about what he posts, but he clearly has an animosity towards me, and you clearly back him up all the time, even when he says Jerry Smith doesn't deserve to be in the HOF while Charlie Sanders does, or that Paul Krause was overrated.

Sorry for the length of this rant, but I don't deserve this- again, I didn't bring up fixed games on this thread. Others are obviously noticing things in games as well, but if I try to clarify my position, then you are instantly there to tell me that you know how I actually feel, and are a better judge of what I'm saying.

I think Historian agreed Sanders in the hall is a dubious choice. Hey we have company in that he felt hard charging fullback Ken Willard isn't a hall of fame caliber player yet Floyd Little with similar stats is a better choice. Maybe Little had a better nickname.......

 

[white is right]

Paul Krause is definetely not overrated, I would say underrated. When Vikings fans started talking about Harrison Smith and his skin color someone brought up Krause, most people didn't even know who he was.

I have seen guys argue that Dermonti Dawson is the greatest center ever. I said on the same board how old are you and do you remember Mike Webster? Younger fans unless they are studius don't read sports reference books about players that played before they have sporting memories.

 

[Don Wassall]

Don,

You continue to claim that I believe every play in every game is scripted. I've used the term scripted several times, but not in the context you do. You twist that in an attempt to ridicule me, throwing in "tin foil hat" references for good measure.

Look up my old posts- you'll find one of my main arguments was that just because we would assume fixed games would be rigged in favor of the Vicks and Scam Newtons, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. When you have the kind of money involved here- point spreads, numerous past allegations of mobster connections to players and owners, I don't see how someone as astute as you are can maintain it's ludicrous to say the games aren't legitimate. Do you believe boxing is on the up and up?

It's clear you have a personal animosity towards me, which is curious since we have no personal relationship. I was one of your earliest supporters, and have steadfastly railed against the Caste System. Yet you continue to pick away at my posts, question my motives and attempt to belittle me on your forum. I have received numerous personal messages of support from members here, but they seem to fear doing so publicly on the forum. Do you desire to be feared by posters here?

We agree on almost all political issues, and I have never criticized you personally. You continue to disrespect me and distort my posts about games being fixed. As I've noted, there is a best selling book out about the subject, "The Fix Is In." This is not a marginal issue any longer, and I am not a "kook" for suggesting the games are not legitimate.

You cannot answer me, so you attack the messenger. Why you have such trust in a corporate entity that is corrupt to the core, that willfully plays less skilled players because of their skin color, that weekly features games in which "controversial" calls swing the outcome one way or the other, is something only you know.

You'e started a web site devoted to exposing the dishonesty of the NFL, yet you defend them fiercely whenever I allude to their games being fixed. You've consistently claimed I said every player would have to be involved in fixing games, when I've said very clearly that the referees alone have the power to determine the outcome of most games.

You accuse me of not supporting white players, when I chastise whites for not supporting their white teammates, and unnecessarily propping up blacks who are in competition with white WRs or RBs. At the same time, you are totally silent when Sport Historian supports the Caste System you are devoted to fighting with almost every post he makes. Your reply that his posts are informative is absurd- many of his posts are along the "I remember watching the Bears and Giants in 1962. Frank Gifford played both WR and Rb" type of thing.

If any other poster urged those on the forum to watch productions like "A Football Life," featuring the likes of Ray Lewis, you'd probably ban them as a troll. I have no animosity towards SH- I don't care about what he posts, but he clearly has an animosity towards me, and you clearly back him up all the time, even when he says Jerry Smith doesn't deserve to be in the HOF while Charlie Sanders does, or that Paul Krause was overrated.

Sorry for the length of this rant, but I don't deserve this- again, I didn't bring up fixed games on this thread. Others are obviously noticing things in games as well, but if I try to clarify my position, then you are instantly there to tell me that you know how I actually feel, and are a better judge of what I'm saying.

What total hogwash. Interesting that you've never denied claiming that every game is scripted, yet now all of a sudden you do. And you can look up your old posts yourself. You've even claimed that every college football game is scripted.

I listened to the author of "The Fix Is In" on Alex Jones's show a month or so back. Jones obviously was a sympathetic interviewer. Yet he didn't give one concrete example of a sporting event being fixed. I've often written that I believe sports events can and have been "tweaked" and "fixed," but for reasons relating to criminal gambling interests, as there is not one single consistent pattern that you've identified of games being fixed to hurt White athletes or White friendly teams and to help black athletes and teams. For every game Eric Decker has only 3 catches, he has others with 8 receptions and 2 touchdowns. For every good game that Cam Newton had last year, he's had an equal number of bad ones this season. If there had ever been consistency and logic to your assertions, you would be free to write about them, but there isn't and hasn't been. I am not interested in having a public forum which is viewed by thousands of people a day promoting ridiculous and illogical "theories."

Your claim that I "fiercely defend" the NFL when it is called a dishonest league is a blatant lie. I've been consistent from day one on this website and in everything I've done over the past 30 years of activism. I keep my nose to the grindstone and produce -- day after day, week after week, year after year, decade after decade -- without tooting my own horn. My principles have never changed. You, if you're not a provocateur of some kind, are a silly, paranoid, scared, do-nothing man who loves to anonymously talk the talk, no matter how ridiculous and without regard to consequences, but never walk the walk. Just because the internet is a mostly anonymous mode of communication doesn't make its users immune from charges of hypocrisy. You've been too paranoid to even join one of this site's fantasy football leagues even though you've often written of your fondness for fantasy football. But you want various prominent White athletes to throw away their career by publicly espousing views similar to CF's.

Your claim that "I cannot answer you" is another whopper of a lie. You are the one that almost never responds to my logical deconstructions of your silly "rants." For example, just last week I asked you right in my post to respond to my question of how you think Robert Griffin is doing so well since you refuse to believe he can throw the ball accurately. Of course you didn't respond. I mean let's face it, either Griffin is making accurate throws himself, or what? If not then he must be getting some kind of secret help from a high-tech device, right? If there's a third possibility, you certainly have yet to advance it despite being asked to.

The week before that I asked you twice what you would advise Toby Gerhart to say since you want him to "publicly speak out" on his underuse and how you think that would play out if he did follow your advice. Again, you didn't respond.

You almost never respond to the many blatantly obvious inconsistencies in your "rants" when they are pointed out by me and many other posters. You just ignore and vacillate, and then wait a week and write another variation of the same discredited crap you wrote the previous week.

Your posts speak for themselves, I don't "interpret" them. Are you denying that you claimed the other week that Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers were deliberately not throwing the ball to Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson?

You never have anything positive to say, just silly, ultra-gloomy paranoid "rants" that seem tailored to the crowd that believes they're being "gang stalked." And now you're whining like a little bitch.

Of course it's not personal. I don't know you, only your posts. I've bent over backwards not to ban you because you've been here for a long time, have often written good posts, as I've often acknowledged, before you became obsessed with claiming a criminal conspiracy every time a White football player has a bad game or an injury. I know some posters like your posts to varying degrees. If anyone "fears" me it's because I've put up with your silliness for too long instead of just doing what needs to be done. I'm publicly and legally responsible for Caste Football, and you've had no respect for the guidelines of this forum. You're no different than a poster that continues to intentionally use racial slurs or profanity even after being asked many times not to do so.

I'm going to ban you, but I'll wait a few days before doing so. That way anyone that wants to can pm you or otherwise contact you and vice versa.

Like I've written before, you or anyone else can start a forum or site and write to your hearts' content about whatever you want. If you were genuinely interested in conciliation you would have pm'ed me rather than going this route. Apparently you're posturing for attention and followers. But good luck to anyone who expects "bigunreal" to stick his neck out for anything as "dangerous" as putting his real name to a controversial website.

I'm going to continue to administer Caste Football to the best of my ability based on what I believe in and what I believe is the best approach to take, as the idea is to educate others, not be a closed club where we can blow off steam writing about illogical conspiracies and/or how terrible all blacks are. I consider CF to be lightly moderated, still just two easy going mods and just about everyone is free to write whatever they want. I think Caste Football has made a lot of progress in regard to changing perceptions, perhaps more than any other pro-White group or organization in many years, even though a lot of good posters seem to burn out and leave when they should be making more contributions. But if Caste Football flounders and fails, I can live with it. Rather that than pander to things I don't believe in and the charlatans who insist on promoting them.

 

[bigunreal]

Talk about being hypersensitive to any criticism. You are going to ban me? For what? For disagreeing with you? For pointing out that you react emotionally and irrationally to my posts? You can't expect everyone to agree with you; I haven't even brought up fixed games for quite some time. Others do, however, and mention my name. So I do feel obligated to respond, especially when you continue to misrepresent my views.

Do what you want- this is your web site.You probably won't have to worry about too many posts supporting me. You have set yourself up as someone who will brook no discontent from posters. I dared to defend myself, when you ridiculed my theories and tried to portray me as some kind of "wacko." Now you try to allude to my real identity. What kind of person does something like that? Are you planning to find and publish my address? Urge others to terrorize me and my family?

If one reads your posts, your views are virtually indecipherable from mine. Frequently, I see you post something that you chastised me for posting. A recent example of this is your posts about white players being injured and losing their jobs. You took me to task for saying that white players simply cannot afford to be injured. You're now saying the same thing. When I say it, it's "nuts," or some "conspiratorial" rant, but when you say the exact same thing, it's a true pearl of wisdom.

I will not stoop to your level and attack you personally. I do respect your work, and the fact you put your real name on Caste Football. You are incapable of acknowledging you are at fault, so I don't expect you to back down. I've found from years of contact with numerous people in political organizations that those who are most "extreme" in their beliefs are usually egotistical and very difficult personalities. You fall into this category perfectly.

 

[Don Wassall]

Fine, I'll give you the last word. And I'll delete the reference to the real "bigunreal" although it's hardly revealing of your name and address.

But that's your final post. I'll give you a few days if you want to contact any members here or them you, but if you post again I'll delete it and ban you right away. This site for me is an oasis from the endless hassles and bs of life. I didn't want this to happen; you blame me and I blame you, but obviously it was bound to happen at some point as I'm not going to spend additional years going back and forth with you.

 

[white defensive back]

Say what you want about Glenn Close but she is a very handsome actress. hahaha Oh wait wrong forum. Sorry about that.

 

[whiteathlete33]

Say what you want about Glenn Close but she is a very handsome actress. hahaha Oh wait wrong forum. Sorry about that.

Why do you do this? Is this a purpose to all this?

 

[white defensive back]

Why do you do this? Is this a purpose to all this?

I was trying to lighten the atmosphere. Its sad that we all fight on here. I'm guilty of it as well. People can believe what they want no matter how implausible but how does all the bickering help our cause?