My take on this site

[Black Guy]

As far as black people not being interested in things, just because you are not does not mean that out of the other 30 million blacks there aren't others who are interested. I see blacks swimming, pitching, wrestling, high jumping, all of the time. Just not excelling at them.

I will make one simple point about that. THE BEST BLACK ATHLETES DONT DO THINGS LIKE HIGH JUMP. For example Micheal Jordan when hewas young had leaping ability unlike any other NBA player in history. Nobody could jump like him which is how he got the nickmane AIR JORDAN. If Micheal Jordan had taken up high jumping instead of Basketball he could have been one of the best all time at it with the leaping and jumping ability that he had. The best black atheletes dont learn how to swim they do other sports. This is probaly a side effect of being slotted to be RB and WRs.

 

[Black Guy]

Ok black guy,I'm going to come at you from another angle.
You keep talking track and how there are not Carl Lewis
types.There again it is the discrimination and stereotypes that hold most white kids back.Wariner was
not given a football scholarship because he was too slow.
Stamer didn't get to play rb at Nebraska even though he
set records at a Junior College & was called unstoppable!
Coach Clyde Hart of Baylor who coached Michael Johnson,
said he believes there are many Wariners out there but
they are discouraged and never get the chance.He has
been coaching for over 40 years.Let's look at the white
women.For whatever reason,they don't see near the
amount of discrimination that white men do in sports.In
the womens sprints,white women still hold a good portion
of the world records in the sprints.All the way from
ladies like Privalova up to todays sprinters like Ivet
Lalova.in 2001,the fastest woman in the world was a
white woman.Again in the olympics last year in 2004,the
fastst woman in the world was a white woman.Her name was
Nesterenko.Do I need to pull out all the sprinting world
records and even other running events held by white
women.How can you honestly say that if they can do this,
that there are no whites that can?Give me a break.Open
your mind and realize that whites in this country would
be just as competetive as in the 50's and 60's when we
were the majority of sprinters.Look at 1956 when Bobby
Morrow won the 100 and the 200 gold medals.When the 70's
came,98% of the white sprinters dissapeared.Why is that?
It is not because of some lesser ability.Trust me on
that.There are many outstanding black athletes and
sprinters.We need a level playing field to see how many
white athletes/sprinters are out there too.

I agree with the points you make about white people being discouraged from taking up track and field. I have read stories on Wariner that prove that aspect to be true. I have never ever said that no white people can run fast.


I will say this you cant blame 98% of white sprinters disappearing just on whites being stereotyped as slow. That maybe a portion of the reason but not the only reason.

 

[jaxvid]

But ask your self this question. HOW DID IT GET TO BE THAT PEOPLE WANTED BLACK PLAYERS. I will tell you. When sports were integrated the black players that came in dominated. 3 out of the 4 of the top HR hitters of all time in baseball are black(1. Aaron 2 .Ruth 3. Bonds 4.Mays) which is amazing considering that most MLB players are still white and baseball wasnt integrated until 1947.I dont even have to tell you what black athletes have achieved in the NFL and NBA.

Easily explainable. The total absence of blacks in the game created a separate talent pool that was tapped immediately after integration. Only the top players were culled from this "pool" so you only had superstars, thus it seemed as if every black was a great player when in fact you were just looking at the top of the talent pool.

Homerun leaders are not an efficient way to look at baseball talent since it just highlights one skill-power. Note that only Ruth and Mel Ott (who played in a tiny park) are among the homerun leaders from the pre-integration era (even among whites), that is because the game became more of a home run game after that. Ted Williams might have been the best homerun hitter ever but missed 4 quality years to war service. Also I discount Bonds because of the steroids. He would have been a good player no doubt, but not an all time homerun leader by any means. You can take away McGuire, and Palimero, and Sosa for the same reason (in my opinion). Adjusting for era's guys like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Howard, Frank Robinson, etc. should really be considered the equal of other power hitters.

But that still doesnt take into account that black player still came into sports and dominated and did things that white athletes never did(Bob Gibson 1.19 era,OJ Simpson 2,000 yds,Rickey Henderson-All time stolen base champ etc etc.)and still have yet to do today.

In all the years the NFL had white RB's how come not one of them rushed for 2,000 yds?? Everyback that has ever done that has been black. Even when OJ did it the first time there were STILL plenty of white RB's in the NFL. How come no white RB has ran for 2,000 yds if they are just as good as blacks. Even when all the RB's were white they couldnt do that.Time and again black people have proven they out perform whites and thats why white kids got squeezed out. Its just that simple. The sports that black people dont play whites still have control over.

Well I really don't want to diss Bob Gibson too much. He was good, and I like him. But if you're going to keep brininging up the one black pitcher in the whole history of the major leagues that was hands down the best pitcher of his era for a short time, then I will bring up John Riggins, the one white guy that was the best of his era for a short time. If Gibson is representable of black pitching talent then Riggins represents white running talent.

OJ, yeah a good runner, but he was fed the ball in a system that concentrated on getting him yards since the team sucked otherwise. They play so many more games today then they did back when white players were running backs. Really yards per carry should be the number one NFL running stat.

Total yards is like total hits in baseball vs. batting avg. Nobody cares much about it. Ichuro's record last year was treated ho-hum, but if he was batting .400 it would have been front page news. Also Pete Rose is treated like dirt even though he is the all time hits leader.

If you look at yards per carry you see that white running backs historically were very good.

 

[Black Guy]

Jax vid-


I remember Riggins and he was good. The Redskins ran the ball as much as anyone but yet Riggins never got near 2000 yds. Plus Riggins never was a speed guy. He was a pounding ,brusing type of back that could show some speed if he got free. But that type of RB today has a very short career due to taking so many hits.


Pitching for whatever reason is not the positionblack people play in MLB. They play other positions. But the best pitching from black people was probaly in the Negro Leagues where you had guys like Satchel Paige who were legendary.

 

[Bart]

John Riggins was pretty fast when he broke into the league playing with the Jets. Let's not forget, he was 6'2 and usually at or above 240lbs.The line busting big guys are sometimes unfairly compared when it comes to yards per carry. They are used in ball control games when everybody in the stadium knows only running plays will be called and also short yardage situations where they are lucky to get a yard or two for a crucial first down. They aresometimes the unsung heroes in playoff games, especially those in bad weather, grinding out yards and hanging on to the ball. Their stats suffer but the team wins.


It is painfully obvioushowever, that blacks and O.J. in particularare known for their SLASHING and CUTTING abilities of which they have no peers.

 

[White Shogun]

In all the years the NFL had white RB's how come not
one of them rushed for 2,000 yds?? Everyback that has ever done that
has been black. Even when OJ did it the first time there were STILL
plenty of white RB's in the NFL. How come no white RB has ran for 2,000
yds if they are just as good as blacks. Even when all the RB's were
white they couldnt do that.Time and again black people have proven they
out perform whites and thats why white kids got squeezed out. Its just
that simple. The sports that black people dont play whites still have
control over.

Easy. Back when there were more white running backs, there were
likewise more white defensive backs who could tackle, thereby making
the 2,000 yard milestone much more difficult to achieve.

 

[White Shogun]

If black athletes are superior, why the dearth of world class athletes from Africa?



The Kenyans have a serious monopoly on long distance running, this is
true. A number of studies I've read have reached the conclusion that
their VO2 capacity is much higher from living and running consistently
at higher altitudes. (Same reason, btw, Lance Armstrong blows everyone
away.. his max VO2 is way beyond the average persons...)



Another group of people known to run at Kenyan-type speeds are the
Tarahumara indians of Mexico, who regularly think nothing of running
100's of miles. They, too, live in thin atmosphere and run
everywhere. There have been attempts to coax them down from the
mountains to compete on behalf of the Mexico but they can't be
persuaded, apparently.



But you know who is the world's best ultra-marathoner, 100-mile endurance runner?



Scott Jurek, a white guy. He's won the Western States endurance run at
least 4 times, I believe. Thats 100 miles straight, without a break,
through bleak wilderness at high altitudes.



I would make the case that either Jurek or Armstrong are better athletes than MJ (Michael Jordan, not Matt Jones.

Jordan was a great basketball player, best of all time. But he blew as
a baseball player. If all around athleticism defines on as the best
'athlete', you'd have to go with someone like Bruce Jenner or any other
top decathlete. Thats 10 grueling events in two days, not just one or
two.



Or how about a gymnast? Anyone want to argue that they have as a group
more strength, agility, motor coordination, and balance than any other
sport athlete? And who dominates gymnastics?



Whites and asians.



But of course blacks are probably just not interested in those sports,
either. There isn't a lot of fame or money in any of these.



Its a cop out to say that blacks aren't dominating other sports because
they aren't interested. Its because other sports haven't
succumbed to the 'black is better' theory like the big three televised
sports in the United States. Thats it in a nutshell.

 

[surfsider]

I believe that if you were to ask Brooks Johnson where the white Carl Lewises are he would probably launch into a rant not unlike some of the ones posted here. His comments in the article I read were prompted in part by the trouble with the perceptions held by athletes he coached especially the distance runners--the black ones felt they should hang back and kick and the white ones felt they had to grind it out from the front even when there actual talents dictated otherwise.

Anyway, it would behoove you Black Guy to learn a bit more about track & field history. For instance, when Bob Hayes became synonomous with speed at the Tokyo Olympics in 1964, it was a very pale Michael Larrabee that won the 400 meters. He had equaled the then world record earlier at the trials. Also, for the time he was a bit aged at 30. It is thought by some that the televising of the Tokyo Olympics is a critical step in peoples perceptions of athletic ability. At the previous summer games in 1960 the 100 meters was won by the great Armin Hary, America's David Sime got silver and a pale Brit Peter Radford took the bronze. A white guy sweep. What makes that interesting is that blacks and whites had been competing head up in track for decades. Owens had his great success in '36, in 1948 the hundred meters was a black sweep with Harrison Dillard, Barney Ewell and Lloyd LaBeach of Panama. So before caste thinking became the unquestioned norm it was "may the best man win" regradless of pigment. The other striking thing about Olympic 100 meter results is the predominance of the United States and that the U.S. had been dominant sprint country regardless of the color of the runners. Until roughly the mid-60's the best sprinters were Americans and black and white. One last example...the 1964 U.S. 400 meter relay team that took gold was two whites and two blacks. The other white guy was Olan Cassell.

Look up the July 2, 1956 cover of Sports Illustrated(20 years after Jesse Owens) to see what the face of sprinting looked like.

 

[Bart]

Yeah, I've heard of Bob Gibson. He may be one of the best black pitchers but he's not in the same class as Roger Clemens.


Clemens: WL% .667Wins328 Losses164


Gibson: WL% .591Wins251 Losses 174


Clemens lost 10 fewer games than Gibson butup tothis pointhas won nearly 80 more games! Another way to look at it is the ratio of wins to losses. It is not uncommon for a young pitcher to have a 2-1 ratio but it is quite rare tomaintain those numbers as one ages and has pitched hundreds of games. Gibson would have had to win almost 100 more games to equal Roger's ratio!

 

[Don Wassall]

Any timethe greatest everbaseball pitchers are mentioned, Gibson's name is almost always ritually invoked. Yet he ranks only 43rd all time in wins. Eighteen pitchers who played during Gibson's time or after finished with more victories. Gibson was a great pitcher, but not for a long enough period of time to be classified as one of the all time greats.


As Jaxvid mentioned, there still haven't been five great black pitchers in the nearly 60 years since Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. Currently there are but five black American starters totalin MLB. Note to NFL -- throwing at an elite level is not a black specialty!Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[Bart]

During the playoffs, Jerome Bettis was called a future hall of famer and one of the best big backs to ever play. Compare his stats to those of Riggins. They have the same average per run but Riggins has 116 TD's to Bettis' 85. Riggins also had nearly 700 more receiving yards. If Bettis is considered very good, so should Riggins and more so.


Bettis:


: Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+--------------- ----------+
|
| TOTAL | 180 | 3369 13294 3.9 82 | 196 1409 7.2 3 |


Riggins:


| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+--------------- ----------+

| TOTAL | 175 | 2916 11352 3.9 104 | 250 2090 8.4 12 |
Edited by: Bart

 

[iLlerThanU]

this conversation turned idiotic real quick and lost it's focus...





1. Black Guy....you're fighting a losing battle commenting on all
these different fronts and from your understand of the "black
athlete". for every "example" you give, there is an exception
that contradicts what you say, as well as an exception that exists in
the white community. it is what it is...if someone wants to make
a point about trout being the best fish to have with white wine, they
can make it i.e. no matter how absurd the response, it can be made and
still have some validity...you can't win this arguement, no matter how
vehemently you believe what you say...





2. back to football. for all intensive purposes, the
ONLY reason white's are over looked for so called speed positions isn't
because of lack of speed, strength or height...it's due to dexterity
and agility...(stereo)typically, white people aren't fluid in the hips,
which makes it hard to make center field turns necessary to play
corner, shiftiness in tight quarters to make people miss, which doesn't
make them good RBs, or the grace and fluid movement to come in and out
of a break to get seperation as a WR....



when people say white people can't dance, it's a truth, and sure, you
can point out John Travolta, or a Backstreet Boy and say "look, he can
dance", but go the club and you have 500+ off beat stiff white
people...yes there are exceptions, and yes it is a stereotype, but it
is mostly true....the same thing that makes white people bad dancers
for the most part, is what makes them bad CBs, RBs, and WRs...



being able to run straight ahead really fast, doesn't make you great at
any of those positions, so when you say white athlete #1 ran a 4.0 and
had a 50 inch vertical, you aren't saying much to prove your point...



someone threw out Alstot and his college accolades and their disgust
for his being switched to FB after "dominating" as a RB...his running
style was never that of a true RB, he was never going to make people
miss, he was going to run them over...like a fullback does. He's
the prototypical stiff downhill runner...but notice he's used as a
FEATURE back in some sets because he can move the pile, so the title FB
doesn't mean much, he's that talented, but you can't deny he's SUPPOSED
to be a fullback.



someone threw out jason sehorn and his freakish athletic ability...yet
he was NEVER a good cover corner, he could tackle and had good
speed...but still...stiff in the hips, frequently beat on double moves
cause he could make the center field turn...





then you have one of my favorite players in college...Tim Dwight...he
was a monster and had track speed....yet...in the NFL....nothing.
seperations speed...no real agility in the open field, little to no
dexterity which equals bad routes and lacks the abiltity to get
seperation in and out of his cuts.



Joe Jerivicious or however you spell his name...monster in college...good receiver...stiff in the hips..it is what it is.





only white player now that looks "smooth" and has the dexterity to play
at a hight level is Brandon Stokley...watch him play, watch him run his
routes, see how he can just LOSE a corner with a move and break to the
ball...that's what most white atheletes lack...and if you can't see the
difference between Stockley and say Dwight, who is faster, you'll never
accept the truth.





it's not a conspiracy and no one has it out for the white "speed"
athlete...it is what it is...the majority are stiff and lack the
agility and dexterity to excel at these positions.

 

[iLlerThanU]

During the playoffs, Jerome Bettis was called a future
hall of famer and one of the best big backs to ever play. Compare his
stats to those of Riggins. They have the same average per run but
Riggins has 116 TD's to Bettis' 85. Riggins also had nearly 700 more
receiving yards. If Bettis is considered very good, so should Riggins
and more so.


Bettis:


: Year TM | G | Att
Yards Y/A TD | Rec
Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+--------------- ----------+
|
|
TOTAL | 180 | 3369 13294
3.9 82 | 196 1409
7.2 3 |


Riggins:


| Year TM | G | Att
Yards Y/A TD | Rec
Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+--------------- ----------+

|
TOTAL | 175 | 2916 11352
3.9 104 | 250 2090
8.4 12 |

i hate when people start pulling that needle from the hay stack and pretend it's the "norm"





riggins played 14 years...Bettis just finished his 12th...and was the
work horse in a more competative era whereas Riggins was not, Bettis
could finish with 1,000+ more yards than him in 14 seasons...and it's
STILL apples to oranges, so why make the comparison?

 

[surfsider]

And it isn't a conspiracy that blacks score well below whites on IQ tests. Let's just appreciate our differences...

 

[surfsider]

The lack of dexterity in the hips agrument falls on its face when you look at other sports. Gymnastics, skiing, soccer etc...that all call for "dexterity".

 

[right winger]

So white CBs, RBs and WRs had agility and dexterity in the integrated NFL of the '60s, '70s and early '80s, but in roughly 1985 this ability was permanently lost by every white football player in perpetuity except for Brandon Stokley?

Alstott ran people over and eluded them. Check out the number of long TD runs he's had, especially in the fourth quarters of games against tired defenses, before you make a statement like that. And besides, that's what big tailbacks are supposed to do -- run over people.

So Sehorn wasn't a good cover corner in 1997, but all these short, medium-to-slow black CBs are, just as they are all whizzes on the dance floor?

Check out what Dwight did the second half of '98, the only time he was actually used as a deep threat starter on a regular basis. Sorry, but you're wrong again.

Jurevicious was making lots of big plays for Tampa until he sustained a serious knee injury. His hips looked just fine on that 70 yard run and catch against Philly in the NFC title game.

I guess Drew Bennett's hips were also locking up when he was making defensive backs look like school kids he was beating them so badly when Billy Volek was playing QB for Tennessee last year. Eight TDs in three games and it could easily have been more. It's a shame he lacks agility. I guess Matt Jones also lacks those special and magical qualities that all black d-backs, running backs and wideouts have.

Your last statement "the majority [of whites] are stiff. . ." Even if true, that still allows for many that aren't. We're talking about a country where many millions of white kids play football seriously, with the intent of excelling at the highest levels.

Read some of the earlier "idiotic" posts about the many whites who can sprint, jump and do anything else as well as the best blacks.

Black Guy's arguments are more credible than yours, and his aren't very credible at all.
Edited by: right winger

 

[White Shogun]

We should change the title of this thread to the "White Stereotype"
thread, and move it to the lounge for off topic discussion.



I'm really starting to feel bad about being white. I can't run, fight,
jump, dance or f****, let alone play football or any other competitive
sport. Hell, we can't even play that quintessential country club white
sport, GOLF, anymore, Tiger Woods is #1!



I can't believe the stereotypical nonsense thats being spouted in this thread.



If you are willling to accept black athletic superiority, are you ALSO
willing to accept the stereotype that blacks are less intelliigent,
industrious, and moral than whites? If not, WHY NOT? THESE ARE THE SAME
TYPE OF STATEMENTS AS THOSE ESPOUSED BY BG AND ILLERTHANU.



You can't have it both ways.

 

[White Shogun]

Bettis / Riggins is a great comparison.



Riggins is already in the HOF. He was inducted in 1992 and is a
member of the 100 rushing TD club, of which there are only six members:



Emmitt Smith

Marcus Alllen

Walter Payton

Jim Brown

John Riggins

Marshal Faulk.



Only drawback for Bettis' future entrance into the HOF is he hasn't yet
won a Super Bowl. But he should still get in, IMO. Bettis is a great
RB, and appears to be a class act.

 

[Bart]

iLIer ThanU, I mentioned Riggins because Black Guy brought him up, I never said he was the norm. You claim Bettis may end up with 1, 000 more yards than Riggins. You missed the point of the comparison, apples to apples in my opinion. Riggins played in fewer games and had 450 less rushing attempts than Bettis but had many more touchdowns. They both had the exact same rushing average per attempt and Riggins was a more productive receiver. Didn't think I had to spell it out. Riggins also played in a competitive era and was considered a work horse.


That dancing argument is pretty lame but you got me thinking about hip flexibility.It could be whites are more stiff, tight and not as loose as blacks but we haven't had the same training as blacks.The inner cities are filled with 26 year old black grandmothers andblack men who impregnate anything and everything in sight.Our hip flexibility has suffered from lack of practice.

 

[SteveB]

This thread turned from a good discussion to ridiculous. Hip flexibility? Have you ever seen Jeremy Bloom (or any other mogul skier)ski competitive moguls? That takes more flexibility than any football move.

 

[jaxvid]

You have to have something like "hip flexibility" or "quick-twitch athleticism" or some other silly non-quantitative measure. If you don't have some kind of mysterious difference then all you have is flat out racism.

The iLlerThanU's of the world at least have the decency to try and justify their prejudice by some imaginary standard instead of just flat out saying: "I like black athlete's better!!!" It really is pathetic how some people will cluth and grab at any straws to avoid facing unpleasent truths.

Personally I think Gene Kelly had more flexible hips then any black man as did many other male dancers from that era. But people accepted whites as more graceful and fluid at that time and so the stereotype was different. We are working to change the current sterotype and it is awfully difficult!

 

[white lightning]

I can't think of his name but speaking of white guys that dance hip hop, the best out there as a dancer is
a white guy.I forget his name but he has been making
money teaching blacks to dance since he was 14.He is
a millionaire and has taught people like Usher,Janet
Jackson,Cisco,BBK,C.Aguleira,B.Spears,etc.He has been
in a few movies and had a dance show on MTV.I will post
his name in a while because I can't rememeber it.He is
a incredible dancer and has more hip flexibility than
anyone I have seen.Oh,but that is not possible.LMAO!!

 

[psychosid]

iLlerThanU i dont know which jason sehorn you are talking about...im talking about the pre 98 sehorn (before the acl)he was simply unbeatable...just ask michael irvin...who called hime " that awsome white boy"...sehorn post 98 (after the acl tear) was never the same player, ill admit that...but if he never got hurt...forget about it...deion who, darrel who...it would not have even been close...sehorn was just bigger and stronger and a better tackeler then either of them...and nearly as fast (despite being 25lbs heavier then deion, and almost 50lbs heavier then darrel green)

 

[Guest]

No hip movement, no dexterity or flexibility, can't play centerfield. This thread started out with alot of promise but it may end up being the stupidest thread ever on caste football.So now I guess even when a white guy runs a 4.2 forty and has a 42 inch vertical it doesn't matter because all he can do is run straight ahead with his stiff hips. STUPID!!!!

 

[Kaptain]

Illerthanyou. Hip swiveltude? and fast-twitch muscle? Is this founded in science? Can you show me scientific data that shows a difference in hip joints? Surely they have studied the differences between blacks and whites in every aspect. With your statements the only stereotype that you are perpetuating is the bell curve. You might be the poster boy for the bell curve.