Muhammad Ali...not that great

[iamasadlittleboy]

To the eyes of many boxing fans Muhammad
Ali, the man known to many as "The Greatest"Â￾ is infallible. His
word is gospel, his skill unquestionable, his losses have been
excused for various reasons and his out of the ring behaviour has
been forgotten about (and won't be covered in this article). Various
historical points have been re-written or papered over, though was
Ali really "The Greatest"Â￾?

Born Cassius Clay 1942, he
would make a name for himself after winning a Gold Olympic medal in
the 1960 Olympic games as a skilled and swift teenager. It wasn't
until Clay, as he was still known, fought Doug Jones that the first
controversy comes into the fighters career. Clay would take a
unanimous decision from the judges against the experienced Jones who
had taken the great Harold Johnson 15 rounds in a Light Heavyweight
title fight. Although Clay had won the fight on the official cards
the, unofficial scorers working ring side for the press had the fight
for Jones (of the 25 ringside polled 13 thought Jones had won, 10
went for Clay and 2 for a draw). Included in those scoring it for
Jones were the Associated Press and the Oakland Tribune. (Source
boxrec.com).

Continued
<a href="http://hubpages.com/hub/Was-Muhammad-Ali-really-that-great" target="_blank">
Ali, not that great </a>

 

[Charles Martel]

Awesome article.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Pretty good article, the likes of which we definitely need more of. Thanks for posting it, iamasadlittleboy.

 

[ww]

I've been going on about this for a long time.

" It wasn't
until Clay, as he was still known, fought Doug Jones that the first
controversy comes into the fighters career."

I think Alonzo Johnson, a 189 pound nobody who had lost 6 of his previous 8 fights beat him in 1961, but Clay was given the decision. You can see the fight on Youtube. The first time I saw a video of that fight was with different announcers and they seemed shocked that Clay got the decision, but the 3-part version I just found on Youtube was announced by the late great Don Dunphy and he seemed good with it. But listen to the booing from the crowd when they gave it to Clay!

Edited by: ww

 

[ww]

....................

Edited by: ww

 

[space hillbilly]

The 80's were lightyears ahead of the 70s, probably because of the overhypeing of the 70's by the media. only the media has made the 70s great. many of the best fighters back then would not even pass the physical to fight today.......

 

[iamasadlittleboy]

I've been going on about this for a long time.

" It wasn't
until Clay, as he was still known, fought Doug Jones that the first
controversy comes into the fighters career."

I think Alonzo Johnson, a 189 pound nobody who had lost 6 of his previous 8 fights beat him in 1961, but Clay was given the decision. You can see the fight on Youtube. The first time I saw a video of that fight was with different announcers and they seemed shocked that Clay got the decision, but the 3-part version I just found on Youtube was announced by the late great Don Dunphy and he seemed good with it. But listen to the booing from the crowd when they gave it to Clay!

Just watched it. In round 10 the commentator says 'on our unofficial score card we have Clay well ahead', the 10th was one round traffic with Clay in charge as well. The boo's (especially in round 9) were at the complete lack of action in the round, whilst Ali came out in the 10 seemingly trying to turn it on. The commentator did indeed seem shocked, though that was due to the fact the cards got closer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcWDuSno_6w theirs the 9th, 10th and the Decision)

 

[Westside]

70% of the people polled in that article, correctly stated that he was an over rated fighter, who got close decisions. I find that remarkable. Even with the attempted brain washing from the CMs, MSM and PTB, most people are not buying the rubbish pushed.

There is still hope.

 

[ww]

I've been going on about this for a long time.

" It wasn't
until Clay, as he was still known, fought Doug Jones that the first
controversy comes into the fighters career."

I think Alonzo Johnson, a 189 pound nobody who had lost 6 of his previous 8 fights beat him in 1961, but Clay was given the decision. You can see the fight on Youtube. The first time I saw a video of that fight was with different announcers and they seemed shocked that Clay got the decision, but the 3-part version I just found on Youtube was announced by the late great Don Dunphy and he seemed good with it. But listen to the booing from the crowd when they gave it to Clay!

Just watched it. In round 10 the commentator says 'on our unofficial score card we have Clay well ahead', the 10th was one round traffic with Clay in charge as well. The boo's (especially in round 9) were at the complete lack of action in the round, whilst Ali came out in the 10 seemingly trying to turn it on. The commentator did indeed seem shocked, though that was due to the fact the cards got closer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcWDuSno_6w theirs the 9th, 10th and the Decision)

I didn't watch the Don Dunphy announced tape, except the end. I did watch the whole fight on tape a couple of years ago, and I thought Johnson won. That version I saw then had different announcers as I recall, two of them, and they thought that Johnson had won too.

"The boo's (especially in round 9) were at the complete lack of action in the round"

Nope. They were booing the decision. Clay is made out to be some sort of superhero now by the controlled US media, but he was widely hated back then, even by his hometown crowd.

" The fight went the full 10 rounds and
by their end, clay was lathered in sweat. When the referee
raised his arm, his hometown crowd turned on him. They booed
and hissed the decision"

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/biojohnson.htm

 

[ww]

The 80's were lightyears ahead of the 70s, probably because of the overhypeing of the 70's by the media. only the media has made the 70s great. many of the best fighters back then would not even pass the physical to fight today.......

Eastern Europeans and Russians weren't even allowed to participate in pro boxing until the '90's, and even black Africans and Cuban expats weren't participating. Clay and Alonzo Johnson et al would look like lightweights compared with the giant heavies today.

 

[ww]

Re "Ali not that great": They interviewed people who actually attended those so-called fights with Liston. I don't believe they were able to come up with a single one at either of them who thought they were legit.

Some more of Clay's phony wins: Fixed ropes vs Foreman, fixed gloves vs. Cooper, fixed boxer-wrestler fight vs. Inoki (it was supposed to be legit - and the simultaneous one between Andre the Giant and Wepner was a little too legit, as Andre (who was not really a nice person) tried to kill the much smaller Wepner). Young was another fake decision.

I wrote more about those alleged fights with Liston on an old thread on another forum. Here's what I wrote:

"I recently watched Clay-Liston II several times, in real time and in
slow motion, and each time I watch it I become more and more convinced
that it was a total fraud.


The pawing right that Ali tossed in Liston's general direction had
absolutely no weight or power behind it. One can't even say if it even
really connected because the impact of the alleged punch is concealed by
Liston's body.


Was Liston's head snapped back by the impact of the punch? It most
definitely was not. No snap at all. You just see Liston's head, followed
by his body, heading down.


They show a closeup of Liston's face as he pretends to be struggling to
his feet. There is no visible damage. His face looks intact, impassive,
same as ever.


Liston then got back to his feet and the fight resumed. Ali was
hyperactive, but landed nothing. Then, for no discernible reason, the
referee, former heavyweight champ, Jersey Joe Walcott, stepped between
them and waved the fight over.



At the very least, this spurious contest should have been deemed "no
contest" because of Clay-Ali's failure to go to a neutral corner while
Liston was down. He remained hovering over Liston in violation of the
rules. The incompetent and corrupt Walcott said nothing. In addition
there was Walcott's inexplicable stoppage of the fight. There should
have also been an investigation, but there wasn't.


Walcott, who himself had taken a dive in his second fight with Marciano
(he was clearly KO'd in their first fight) later tried to explain why he
stopped the fight by saying that the editor of Ring magazine signaled
him from ringside that his count had gone too long! That's crazy. The
editor of a magazine sitting in the audience is not supposed to be the
person who determines the outcome of a championship fight!


Virtually no one in attendence saw Clay-Ali's "phantom punch". The only
people who "saw" it were those on the payroll, Clay-Ali's entourage,
Burt Sugar of Ring magazine, etc.







Clay-Ali is way way over-rated by an obsequious media. Aside from his
lifelong membership in a criminal organization and his anti-white
racism, he always displayed poor sportsmanship, taunting and mocking his
defeated (often, as in the case of Liston, defeated not by his own
skills) adversaries. (I noticed that his daughter behaves in the same
disgusting manner).


Clay-Ali was involved in many other crooked fights besides the two with
Liston: he was given gift decisions on occasions such as his loss to
Jimmy Young; the ropes were especially rigged for him vs. Foreman; and -
as I mentioned - his glove was impregnated with glass fragments vs.
Henry Cooper.



and:

Curtis From Texas wrote:


"As far as the second Liston fight there's was no 'phantom' punch...it
was clear as day. A fast straight-right caught Liston cold directly on
the temple. Those snapping punches you don't see are the one's that will
get ya...especially if caught in the first round before you truely get
warmed-up."





I disagree.


I've been studying that fight. As far as I know there's only one
available tape, and that phantom punch was most definitely not as "clear
as day" on that tape.


I watched the tape over and over in slow motion and stop motion and at normal speed.


Clay just sort of put out his arm, no "fast straight right", just a
powerless pawing extension of the arm with no bodyweight behind it.
Liston's back was to the camera so you could not see where this alleged
punch allegedly connected, but you could see that Liston's head was in
no way snapped back. What you do see is Clay's arm harmlessly extended
in a pawing motion and then Liston falling down. No impact of any punch
and no snapping punch, just a pawing extension of the arm and then
Liston pretends to fall down.


That's why it was wryly referred to as "the phantom punch", because no
one saw it. No one saw it either at the stadium or on the television.
The only people who did see it were those on the payroll, like Jersey
Joe Walcott, the crooked boxer turned crooked referee, and the Black
Muslims, and Nat Fleischer of Ring magazine, who seemed to be
orchestrating the farce from ringside.


ww

Edited by: ww

 

[space hillbilly]

The 80's were lightyears ahead of the 70s, probably because of the overhypeing of the 70's by the media. only the media has made the 70s great. many of the best fighters back then would not even pass the physical to fight today.......

Eastern Europeans and Russians weren't even allowed to participate in pro boxing until the '90's, and even black Africans and Cuban expats weren't participating. Clay and Alonzo Johnson et al would look like lightweights compared with the giant heavies today.

This is someing i've been thinking about for a long time,
why did pugilistic dementia strike the 70's heavyweights so hard?
Ali, Quarry, Patterson, Ellis, Norton, Young, and is rumored many more.

I can think of only two possibilities, the fighters skils were so poor that they took unnecessary punishment or they were useing some PEDs back then that done it......

 

[white is right]

Ferdie Pacheco had a theory that Ali's Parkinson syndrome was caused by Ali taking regular cortisone shots for his hands late in his career. He felt that compromised his auto-immune system. I think the reason why so many stars of the 70's having Pugilistic Dementia could be because they fought so often and didn't take long breaks after bad ko's. The fighters from the 90's are getting the same problems. Riddick Bowe is still delusional enough to think he could beat Wlad and Vitali and James Toney sounds like he drank a quart of vodka before being interviewed.

 

[Westside]

The other day I was viewing fights on Youtube. I came across several of Toney's fights during the middle to late 90s. While talking to the HBO crew, he sounded half way intelligent and clear minded.

Fast forward to today, and he sounds drunk and his speech is slurred big time. There was also one piece that tested Toney's testosterone levels for a 35 year old man. The findings were that his was extremely low. The result, according to doctor was that his brain was rattled more than a typical 35 year old man causing a decrease in it. Maybe this explains Toney's huge manboobs now.

It is strange that at one time Toney fought at 160 lbs and now waddles around like a black sumo. Sadly, disregarding his supreme TNB, Toney was a great fighter who was totally relaxed in the ring and believed he could win any fight. He had a great boxing IQ. He should have stopped 10 years ago, took some English speaking lessons as well as basic etiquette training and become what Ray Leonard is.

 

[iamasadlittleboy]

The 80's were lightyears ahead of the 70s, probably because of the overhypeing of the 70's by the media. only the media has made the 70s great. many of the best fighters back then would not even pass the physical to fight today.......

Eastern Europeans and Russians weren't even allowed to participate in pro boxing until the '90's, and even black Africans and Cuban expats weren't participating. Clay and Alonzo Johnson et al would look like lightweights compared with the giant heavies today.

This is someing i've been thinking about for a long time,
<div>why did pugilistic dementia strike the 70's heavyweights so hard?</div>
<div>Ali, Quarry, Patterson, Ellis, Norton, Young, and is rumored many more.</div>
<div></div>
<div>I can think of only two possibilities, the fighters skils were so poor that they took unnecessary punishment or they were useing some PEDs back then that done it......</div>

Number of fights against the top fighters on the basis they were fighting? Look at just Ali and Frazier...

They fought around 40 rounds against each other, they also both met Foreman, they both boxed WELL beyond their prime.
Neither guy had a great defence during the 70's and both were hit A LOT. Whilst medical stuff wasn't as good.

The 80's heavies seemed to be a bunch of druggies

I think theres a cyclical nature to a lot of what happens in the sport, and we're just waiting for the warring heavies to come around again.

 

[DixieDestroyer]

The brothers KlitschKO would have handed Clay his @$$...in his prime.

 

[space hillbilly]

The brothers KlitschKO would have handed Clay his @$$...in his prime.

Good to see you on the boxing thread Dixie!

 

[warhawk46]

Ali is incredibly overrated, imo. He fought a lot of nobodies in the 60s (and should have lost a couple) and got many gift-decision later in the 70s. He had great heart, fast hands but poor defense and poor skills.<div>
</div><div>But he called himself the Greatest enough where people fell for it.</div><div>
</div><div>All-time Heavies off the top of my head I would take over him:</div><div>-Tyson</div><div>-W. Klitschko</div><div>-V. Klitschko</div><div>-Holmes</div><div>-Frasier</div><div>-Marciano</div><div>-Lewis</div><div>-Jeffries</div><div>-Louis</div><div>
</div><div>Probably more too. He is so far removed from GOAT it isn't funny.</div>

 

[Westside]

warhawk46, it is like Josef Goebbels stated, " Tell a lie enough, and it will stick" or words to that effect. Clay or one of his handlers knew this worked. Hence "I am the GOATs" BS.

Ali should have had five loses. 1st Frazier fight. 2, 3. 1st and 3rd Norton fights. 4. Jimmy Young fight. 5. 1st Leon Spinks fight.

As stated Ali got alot of gift decisions and referees in his pocket. Padilla in the Thrilla in Manilla fight allowed Ali with impunity to push down on Fraziers neck throughout the fight. He should have been docked points after the 3rd warning, but never was. A fighter subjected to his cheating becomes tired after the 3rd round, not mention nullifies his in fighting.

There was a very good HBO documentary on that fight last year. Watched it twice.

 

[warhawk46]

Westside, totally agree!<div>
</div><div>Plus, I truly feel he should have lost to Cooper.</div><div>
</div><div>He was good no doubt, but far from the GOAT like people like to call him.</div><div>
</div><div>In my mind, in ten years time Klitschko, Marciano, Tyson and Louis will be the four fighters I would put up against any of the elite heavies of all-time and come out with the most wins. But that's just me.</div><div>
</div><div>I also find people seem to underrate Dempsey lately.</div>

 

[Westside]

warhawk46 your right. Clay did exhibit great courage in his fights against Frazier and especially fighting 8 or so rounds with a broken jaw against Norton.

But a very good fighter, not the greatest by any means.

 

[warhawk46]

Nope, but the biggest loud-mouth bigot often gets the press unfortunately.