knightedsoldier5000
Mentor
I remember watching Wakefield's debut. The Cardinal announcers were just raving about the break on his pitches.
MLB 2023 Season
- Thread starter Leonardfan
- Start date
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
Yeah, always one of my favorite pitches growing up. In addition to Phil, his brother Joe Niekro threw a good knuckler. Being a Dodger fan, Charlie Hough was one of my favorite knuckleballers. It is curious why nobody throws this pitch with any regularity, or at all these days. I know for one that it's a difficult pitch to master since it is so unpredictable on its way to the plate. And it's boring. A slow, meandering pitch that won't wow anyone. These days pitchers just want to throw 100 MPH fastballs and 90 MPH sliders. And since they only pitch 6 innings at most, they can get away with it for awhile.
Was looking at the three finalists in each league for the 2023 Cy Young Award and at first I thought I was reading The Onion or Babylon Bee. Of the three AL finalists one finished the '23 season with an 8-8 record and another was 12-9. 8-8 and he may win the award as the American League's best pitcher!!
The NL has a finalist with a 14-9 record and another with a record of, believe it or not, 11-13. When I followed baseball, starters who finished 8-8 or 11-13 were often back in the minors the next season or out of baseball altogether, especially if they were on a good team. Now they're the best of the best.
I don't care about their WAR, strikeouts per nine innings or any other metric, I could never get interested in baseball again when those kinds of won-loss records are competing for the Cy Young Award. I'm not encouraging anyone not to follow baseball as I don't like it when I read posts on CF encouraging people here to not watch any football and I'm glad we still have posters who do follow baseball as it's the only way I keep up at all.
But it certainly doesn't create any doubt in my mind that I might have made the wrong choice when I stopped following baseball over a decade ago, the sport I loved so much as a kid, in the way so many American boys have through the years, or used to, as I don't think the younger generations will ever understand the hold baseball used to have on this country. What hockey has always meant to Canadians is what baseball used to mean to Americans, is probably the best comparison. But I don't recognize baseball any more in a lot of different ways, from the disappearance of many fundamentals and basic strategies, to the strikeout or hit a home run mentality that rules today, to the absurd amounts of guaranteed money thrown at mediocrities, to the way TV warps the natural rhythm and pace of baseball to try to adjust to a dumbed down population. Just no interest at all and don't see that changing.
The NL has a finalist with a 14-9 record and another with a record of, believe it or not, 11-13. When I followed baseball, starters who finished 8-8 or 11-13 were often back in the minors the next season or out of baseball altogether, especially if they were on a good team. Now they're the best of the best.
I don't care about their WAR, strikeouts per nine innings or any other metric, I could never get interested in baseball again when those kinds of won-loss records are competing for the Cy Young Award. I'm not encouraging anyone not to follow baseball as I don't like it when I read posts on CF encouraging people here to not watch any football and I'm glad we still have posters who do follow baseball as it's the only way I keep up at all.
But it certainly doesn't create any doubt in my mind that I might have made the wrong choice when I stopped following baseball over a decade ago, the sport I loved so much as a kid, in the way so many American boys have through the years, or used to, as I don't think the younger generations will ever understand the hold baseball used to have on this country. What hockey has always meant to Canadians is what baseball used to mean to Americans, is probably the best comparison. But I don't recognize baseball any more in a lot of different ways, from the disappearance of many fundamentals and basic strategies, to the strikeout or hit a home run mentality that rules today, to the absurd amounts of guaranteed money thrown at mediocrities, to the way TV warps the natural rhythm and pace of baseball to try to adjust to a dumbed down population. Just no interest at all and don't see that changing.
knightedsoldier5000
Mentor
It's absolutely ridiculous that Spencer Strider with 20 wins isn't one of the top 3 finalists, but we do live in clown world.
I was a huge baseball fan too as a child. I loved McGwire, then a couple years after his huge season we found out they were all on steroids. Then Bonds cheated his way to the top. I was done with baseball. Mike Trout got me paying some attention again when he came on the scene, at least to check box scores. But it's totally different now than it was in the 80s with greats like Boggs, Mattingly, and even black stars like Puckett and Gwynn. Back then if a hitter struck out 100 X / year he was a total bum ready to be sent down to the minors. Now, it's rare for someone to have less than 100 Ks. The game has not changed for the better by any stretch of the imagination.
The steroid scandal ruined the game for me. They're all a bunch of cheaters.
FootballDad
Hall of Famer
Big money has played a huge role in destroying the sport from a fan standpoint as well. The NFL managed this by instituting the salary cap and negotiating deals with the players union. Baseball has no parity at all. Big money teams will win nine times out of ten over a small-market team that can't pay every player 10 million a year.
As Don mentions, the basic fundamentals of the game are lost. Everything is about power, hitters and pitchers both. Back when I was a huge baseball fan in the '70s and '80s, you knew your starting rotation. Pitchers were the equivelent to quarterbacks in the NFL. Now every staff is largely a bunch of nobodies, complete games, no-hitters and perfect games are a mere memory. It's all a committee. Look at game 4 for the Diamondbacks in the WS, they literally just used the bullpen from the start, everyone got an inning or two. Absurd and unwatchable.
As Don mentions, the basic fundamentals of the game are lost. Everything is about power, hitters and pitchers both. Back when I was a huge baseball fan in the '70s and '80s, you knew your starting rotation. Pitchers were the equivelent to quarterbacks in the NFL. Now every staff is largely a bunch of nobodies, complete games, no-hitters and perfect games are a mere memory. It's all a committee. Look at game 4 for the Diamondbacks in the WS, they literally just used the bullpen from the start, everyone got an inning or two. Absurd and unwatchable.
sport historian
Master
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2004
- Messages
- 2,954
I remember in my childhood baseball being the number one sport and how big the World Series was. They didn't need the hype machine used for the Super Bowl. Until 1971 the WS was played during the daytime. People would tell each other what the score was.
white is right
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 10,038
I remember when Jose Canseco's skills slipped to the point where he only swung for the fences and either struck out or hit a homerun and never shortened up his swing. He was maligned for this but in this era every slugger is doing this. Schwarber didn't even break the Mendoza line(.200) and there wasn't any talk of his career fading or if he needed to tune up his swing in the off season.
This era of station to station baseball with a dh in both leagues is barely watchable IMO. It reminds me of weekend beer league softball games.
PS I remember when you went to school and at around 3pm the playoff games began. I remember coming home and running to a neighbors house to watch the playoff Dent homerun off of Mike Torrez. I also remember when the world series switched from day to night games on weekdays but kept the day games on the weekend for families so that grammar school children wouldn't doze off early in the game.
The only thing that has kept any daytime games on television is the over lap of the first round which is because everybody and his brother makes the first round now.
Last edited:
Bucky
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2018
- Messages
- 9,165
Orioles' Henderson wins AL ROY unanimously
Baltimore Orioles shortstop Gunnar Henderson garnered all 30 first-place votes win American League Rookie of the Year unanimously.
white lightning
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2004
- Messages
- 20,828
I don't like this move but I understand why they did it. I hates seeing so much baseball history changed but that's modern sports sadly.
There is very little loyalty to cities or states in most professional sports these days.
There is very little loyalty to cities or states in most professional sports these days.
The A's are going to Vegas! MLB owners unanimously approve $1.5bn relocation...
The A's are going to Vegas! MLB owners unanimously approve $1.5bn relocation of the Oakland Athletics, confirming baseball's first relocation since 20
www.freedomsphoenix.com
Carolina Speed
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2011
- Messages
- 5,354
Shohei Ohtani signs $700 million 10 year deal with The Dodgers. The largest contract in sports history.
footballenthusiast
Guru
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2022
- Messages
- 345
And to think, the Pirates payroll for 2023 was $68 million.
Freethinker
Hall of Famer
Lunch Pail Guy
Newbie
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2023
- Messages
- 8
I read somewhere that it would take something like 805 years for MVP-favorite Brock Purdy to make 700 million at his current pay rate as Mr. Irrelevant.
white lightning
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2004
- Messages
- 20,828
Hall of Fame Class of '24: Beltre, Helton, Mauer
Adrian Beltre, Todd Helton and Joe Mauer were voted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, while closer Billy Wagner again fell just short with 73.8%.
PhillyBirds
Mentor
No objections to the results from me, a very deserving three. Interesting to see if views on steroid-adjacent players change over time, but Sheffield is done on the primary ballot despite having 500 home runs. Guys like Ramirez, Rodriguez and Pettitte look like they won't get there due to steroid/HGH use.Hall of Fame Class of '24: Beltre, Helton, Mauer
Adrian Beltre, Todd Helton and Joe Mauer were voted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, while closer Billy Wagner again fell just short with 73.8%.www.espn.com
jimmyjerapolo
Guru
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2022
- Messages
- 215
It seems like they are. Both Bonds and Clements went from about 37% to 66% between their first and final ballets. They both belong in the hall and will eventually get in if you ask me. You can't leave out the absolute best players of an era because they were juicing (like everyone else) at the tail end of their careers. Clemens had 5 Cy Youngs and 7 All-star nods before he is believed to have started using steroids, that alone is a HOF career. Borderline guys like Ramierz and Sheffield will probably never get in though, and I'm fine with that.
At their peak, Mauer and Helton were two of the very best hitters baseball has seen since WWII ended. Mauer hit .365 in 2009 and won three batting titles, so impressive for a catcher, while Helton topped out when he led the NL at .372 in 2000.
I don't know how many times Helton's peak average has been beaten since WWII but it's not a lot. Ted Williams hit .388 when he was almost 40 years old in 1957 and George Brett hit .390 in 1980. Larry Walker hit .379 in 1999, Wade Boggs hit in the .360s four times but never reached .370, Tony Gwynn hit .394 in the strike shortened 1994 season and tied Helton's mark of .372 in '97, while Rod Carew hit .388 in '77, the only time he hit .370 or higher. Don Mattingly's highest average was .352. Mickey Mantle hit .365 in his Triple Crown 1956 season. Willie Mays' highest batting average was .347, Roberto Clemente's was .357. So Helton and Mauer both are in elite company when it comes to hitting.
I don't know how many times Helton's peak average has been beaten since WWII but it's not a lot. Ted Williams hit .388 when he was almost 40 years old in 1957 and George Brett hit .390 in 1980. Larry Walker hit .379 in 1999, Wade Boggs hit in the .360s four times but never reached .370, Tony Gwynn hit .394 in the strike shortened 1994 season and tied Helton's mark of .372 in '97, while Rod Carew hit .388 in '77, the only time he hit .370 or higher. Don Mattingly's highest average was .352. Mickey Mantle hit .365 in his Triple Crown 1956 season. Willie Mays' highest batting average was .347, Roberto Clemente's was .357. So Helton and Mauer both are in elite company when it comes to hitting.
Carolina Speed
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2011
- Messages
- 5,354
All 3 are worthy, but I'm particularly glad for Helton. He won the slash line triple crown in 2000. .372/.463/.698. He is also one of only 27 players in MLB history to slash .300/.400/.500 for his career. His official career slash line is: .316/.414/.539. This alone is enough to be a Hall of Famer. Congratulations to the "Toddfather"!
JFYI slash line consists of batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage.
JFYI slash line consists of batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage.
Burned remnants of stolen Robinson statue found
The burned remnants of a Jackie Robinson statue that was stolen last week were found Tuesday.
Thoughts? Reactions?
Leonardfan
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2006
- Messages
- 23,037
Burned remnants of stolen Robinson statue found
The burned remnants of a Jackie Robinson statue that was stolen last week were found Tuesday.
Thoughts? Reactions?
Don't care honestly. Probably a hoax perpetrated by minorities.
Freethinker
Hall of Famer
Hahaha, can we call these a “whatcha doin’ DeShawn’dre?”
HOAX. Perpetrated by insecure blacks, or more likely by the deep state purveyors of racial division. No living White person ever saw or gave a crap about Jackie Robinson, nor would they waste their time on such a pointless gesture.Burned remnants of stolen Robinson statue found
The burned remnants of a Jackie Robinson statue that was stolen last week were found Tuesday.
Thoughts? Reactions?
Even when Robinson broke the color barrier and began playing for the Dodgers he faced little discrimination. There are tales of an opposing player and the occasional fan giving him a hard time, but this was late 1940s America, supposedly a virulently White supremacist, anti-Black country. Peyton Hillis and likely Christian McCaffrey and others have undoubtedly heard far more racist remarks from teammates and opposing players than Jackie Robinson did.
And I agree, every alleged "hate crime" should be assumed to be a hoax, because almost all of them are.
And I agree, every alleged "hate crime" should be assumed to be a hoax, because almost all of them are.