Lutter vs Silva

[White Shogun]

Lutter has to either submit him early, or have better conditioning so he can keep taking him down for as long as he has needs to.

If Lutter didn't make weight, doesn't this imply that he hasn't been working on his conditioning? Why wouldn't he have been able to lose the weight if he was really working on conditioning?

We can always hope that the time he didn't spend on conditioning or making weight was spent working out of a Thai clinch and shooting for takedowns.

 

[Poacher]

Some good news; Lindland just defeated Carlos Newton via guillotine choke. There aren't many white fighters (or fighters of any color for that matter) that are better than Lindland right now.

 

[Triad]

Did Horn beat Silva?

No, he was able to take him down repeatedly something Leben and Franklin were unable or not smart enough to do.

As far as Lutter, he had months and months knowing he had a title fight and the chance of a lifetime and he can't cut the last 2 pounds.Edited by: Triad

 

[White Shogun]

As far as Lutter, he had months and months knowing he had a title fight and the chance of a lifetime and he can't cut the last 2 pounds.

I'm wondering how much Silva weighs normally? How much weight does he cut for a fight? Franklin and some of the other guys get dogged mercilessly for cutting a bunch of weight in order to have a size advantage over their opponents come fight time. Haven't heard anything like that said about Silva, but the guy is big. He is taller than Franklin and just as heavy, judging from what I saw in their fight.

I'm wondering if Lutter tried to cut it too close to the weight limit in order to be at less of a weight disadvantage against Silva the day of the fight?

Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Triad]

I'm wondering if Lutter tried to cut it too close to the weight limit in order to be at less of a weight disadvantage against Silva the day of the fight?

It was too big of a fight for Lutter's career to experiment with his weight. 184 or even 183 would be better than 187. WTF
He had an unbelievable opportunity. He went from a has been fighter to a lucrative endorsement deal, headlining a PPV card, and a title shot just by winning a tournament against other 2nd tier fighters. Now if he were to lose against Silva his UFC career may be over, they've been marketing a title fight for months and he incredibly screwed it up. This match doesn't deserve main event status now and the PPV numbers may suffer and his Xyience deal may be in trouble. Plus, he looked completely dejected at weighin and he may be wasted from trying to cut so much weight so fast. Just stupid all the way around. Edited by: Triad

 

[Poacher]

I don't care what anyone says I think Silva is 6'2". Edited by: Poacher

 

[White Shogun]

Anybody watching the PPV tonight?

 

[freedom1]

Round 1
Lutter tries to shoot twice but Silva backs away and out. Anderson Grazes a flying knee but Lutter takes him down. Lutter now working from Silva's closed guard. Silva escapes to his feet but Lutter quickly scores a single leg takedown. Anderson goes for an armbar and an omaplata but Lutter defends. Lutter now working from side-control. Lutter moves to mount. He pounds away at Silva's face. He spins for an armbar but Anderson escapes back to his feet. First round is all Lutter, 10-9.

Round 2
Lutter quickly scores a double-leg takedown. Anderson lands an upkick that hurts Lutter. Lutter falls down into Silva's guard where Anderson sinks a deep triangle. Silva lands several elbows to Lutter's head from the bottom while still holding the triangle. Lutter taps at 2:11 of the second round.

 

[White Shogun]

I was very surprised at the ease with which Lutter took Silva down. No set ups, nothing.. he just went in low and took him down.

I'm not sure of the rules concerning downward elbows, but Silva was hitting Lutter on the top of the head with downward elbow strikes using the point of his elbow. I thought downward elbows were illegal, but the only one who mentioned it at the end of the fight was Couture. That notion was dispelled pretty quickly, though, as Silva was announced the winner by tapout due to submission in the second round.

This fight begs the obvious: does Lutter win if he cuts weight in time, in the proper manner? Was he unable to work transitions and submissions because he was too weak from trying to drop 20 lbs. two days out?

I know one thing; everyone else in the middle weight division noticed how easily Lutter took Silva to the mat. That alone will make for some very interesting match ups in the future.

 

[Poacher]

Lutter did quite well. Silva has no takedown defense. Lutter was taking him down at will, Silva was on his back most of the fight. He was not impressive at all.

Cro Cop however, did just what everyone expected him to do. He stalked Sanchez around the octagon landing about 4 kicks including one to the head which was basically the end of the fight. Sanchez went down and Mirko jumped on him and started raining punches from the full mount...the fight was stopped in the first round with about 30 seconds left.

Rampage was not very impressive in his debut. Yes he knocked out Eastman but it wasn't the dynamic display that everyone was expecting.

Observations:

CC entered the octagon to the PRIDE theme...no kidding.

Rogan asked Mirko to "talk us through this Mickey's replay" and Mirko didn't say a friggin' word. HA HA HA!

 

[White Shogun]

Rogan asked Mirko to "talk us through this Mickey's replay" and Mirko didn't say a friggin' word. HA HA HA!

We got a kick out of the way Cro Cop answered Rogan's questions, too. Rogan was going on and on about Cro Cop's debut in his welcome to the 'Ultimate Fighting Championship!' speech after the fight. Cro Cop just says, "Thank you," all matter of fact. LOL It's great to have Cro Cop in the UFC.

I agree with Poacher, Rampage was very unimpressive in his debut. To his credit though, he said he thought the same of his performance as we did. He said that he was not ready to fight Chuck and needed to work on his stand up. Then he invited Chuck to his after party. LOL

The best fight of the night was shown after the Silva-Lutter fight, a bout from the undercard between Edgar and Tyson Griffin. Griffin appears to be half-black or some type of mulatto. He is well built, very muscular, and his reputation as a fighter preceded him into the octagon. Edgar on the other hand appeared to be a skinny white kid by comparison. Edgar took the fight to Griffin throughout all three rounds, landed the better shots, and scored a number of takedowns. He won a unanimous decision 30-27x2, 29-28.

 

[Triad]

Overall, IMO not a very good card. Seemed like a Fight Night atmosphere, nor a PPV. I felt like I wasted $39.95. Most of the matches were uneventful. The crowd that showed up left early. The best fights were in the undercard.

No rules were enforced; one guy was KO'd by an illegal knee on the grand, Griffin gets kicked in the nuts and is told to fight on, and Silva stopped Lutter with downward elbows.

Cro Cop is in a completely different league than Sanchez, that was a joke of a matchup. The UFC can't afford for Rampage or Cro Cop to lose like Herring. Finally, Silva looked human in the UFC; just goes to show you Franklin and Leben aren't as good as advertised. Not sure how UFC 68 will be much better.

 

[White Shogun]

On the one hand, I agree with Triad; it wasn't a very good card. The event was a waste of money except for the fact I watched it with family and friends.

Silva's elbows were clearly downward, striking the top of Lutter's head with the point of the elbow. The triangle didn't appear to be tight enough to force a grappler of Lutter's caliber to tap; it was the elbows that forced Lutter to quit IMO, not the triangle. I'm just not sure if the rules do or do not permit downward elbows. I thought they were illegal, but there was no uh, 'point' made about it except by Couture.

On the other hand, I thought Huerta hit Halverson in the side with the knee, not the head. It was very clear on the last replay from the same side.

I thought Edgar's knee hit Griffin at least as high as the upper body and not anywhere near the groin at all. Griffin reminded me of Hughes in his last fight with GSP. I thought he was looking for a breather and Mazzagatti made the correct call by telling them to fight on. I haven't seen a replay on YouTube or the UG yet though, so I reserve the right to change my mind on this one.

As far as Silva goes, maybe Lutter was better than I thought. Except for cutting weight, that is.

I believe Franklin takes Silva in the rematch. Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Triad]

Below are the alleged rules.

Fouls:[Top]
1.Butting with the head.
2.Eye gouging of any kind.
3.Biting.
4.Hair pulling.
5.Fish hooking.
6.Groin attacks of any kind.
7.Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8.Small joint manipulation.
9.Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

 

[White Shogun]

10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.

Silva was guilty of both, in my opinion. He attempted an axe kick while Lutter was lying flat on his back.

What do you think, Triad? If Lutter hadn't screwed up dropping weight, would he have beaten Silva? How much do you think it affected his performance?

 

[Triad]

Lutter looked like he had the flu because of the weight issue he was pale and looked weak and not nearly 100%. In contrast his body was flabby and soft. I'm assuming he got his big contract/endorsement and sat on his ass over the last few months. Does anyone know what his normal weight is and how much he tried to cut. I had read on another forum it was 20 pounds in 3 days. On weigh-in day he looked awful and then had two hours in the sauna and only lost another 8 ounces?? He gave no excuses for his weight so it was entirely his fault. Very unprofessional unless there's more to the story.

Despite of this he dominated Round 1 and got an easy takedown to start Round 2 before getting kicked and falling into a tight triangle. He tapped due to illegal elbows to the head - it wasn't Silva's fault it was the ref. He should have ordered a break/ warned or even deducted a point from Silva. Who knows how the outcome would have changed if Lutter shows up in shape. Silva doesn't look nearly as invincible now. Who is next in line for him - the McDonald/Franklin winner? Basically if you beat Leben you're in line for a title shot.

The worst part of the fights were that the rules were optional. I didn't bother to watch a replay but I thought Edgar kicked Griffin square in the nuts and he was told to fight on. If Griffin was acting he did a great job right through the recovery phase he basically took a pounding for 20-30 secs. Plus, Edgar spent a long time holding on to the fence to avoid an earlier takedown (Rules #23, #28). He was finally warned the 2nd time he did it.
Our replays didn't show anything clear about Huerta's knee. We Tivo'd and slo-mo'd it several times and we thought he took a knee to the side of the face/chin area (Rule #15). Huerta claimed it was to the shoulder but it was higher than that. Plus, not many people throw a knee to someone's shoulder and they certainly don't get a reaction like that.
All of the infractions were based on instinct in the heat of a fight, not necesarily malice; some may have been ignorant to the rules. It's up to the officials to do their jobs or the announcers to call them out on it.

 

[dkr77]

Well guys looks like I was wrong again

However, Rampage and Silva were both unimpressive and I don't see Jackson making it through the first round with Chuck Liddell. I also don't believe Silva will be able to keep that title belt very long before a good ground guy ( wrestler / BJJ ) takes it from him. The fight of the night was the lightweights where Edgar soundly beat the mulatto Griffin. I couldn't help noticing that Griffin looked bigger than Edgar particularly in the trunk area where Griffin was sporting that huge ******* buttock that's so prevalent among their species. All said and done last night's UFC should have been on free TV

 

[White Shogun]

Rules clarification:

A 'downward elbow' must flow from ceiling to floor. Any other angle or direction is legal. Striking with the point of the elbow is legal. No strikes to the back of the neck or spine are legal under any circumstances, regardless of direction.

A downed opponent may be kicked, but not 'stomped.' An axe kick is legal and not considered a stomp.

Silva's 'bows were legal, his win was legit.

Doesn't mean that Lutter would not win a rematch if he learns to cut weight like a professional. Edited by: White Shogun

 

[freedom1]

I like Silva. He's great standing, excellent on the ground and he conducts himself well.

 

[White Shogun]

I like Silva. He's great standing, excellent on the ground and he conducts himself well.

Sure, I like him, too.

Doesn't mean I don't want some white fighter to pound him into oblivion and take his belt away from him.

He can be classy and conduct himself well somewhere farther down the ranks.

 

[freedom1]

Oh yeah, I want some white fighter to pound him out too. I'm just saying it's better having him in there than some flashy, trash talking pimp. In fact, I'm confident he soon will get beaten simply because whites are better at this sport.

 

[dkr77]

I agree with you guy's also. Silva seems like a decent enough fellow, I just simply don't buy into the hype the PC crowd is heaping on him. If Silva can be taken down at will from a guy shooting 8 feet away, what's he going to do against a 185er with the takedown skills of say, Matt Hughes?

 

[DixieDestroyer]

Had Lutter been 100%, he would have beaten Silva. He had him set up for the finish when he took full mount, but let Silva escape. My money would be on Lutter in a rematch (although that probably won't happen). Dan Henderson & Matt Lindland would certainly smash Silva. He seems like a nice guy, but it's only a matter of time before a superior white fighter takes that strap from him!

 

[Poacher]

If Silva can be taken down at will from a guy shooting 8 feet away, what's he going to do against a 185er with the takedown skills of say, Matt Hughes?

Yes, great point. At this point it looks as if a decent high school wrestler could take Silva down.

 

[White Shogun]

Oh yeah, I want some white fighter to pound him out too. I'm just saying it's better having him in there than some flashy, trash talking pimp. In fact, I'm confident he soon will get beaten simply because whites are better at this sport.

Say... Rampage Jackson, for example?