Its a Raid!

[guest301]

You know one of the hero's of the Bible was David who had Bathseeba as his concubine. There is a lot of hypocrisy in that book.

If you read a little further into that story, David paid a price for that sin and there is hypocrisy everywhere. The Bible is just about as much a story on the human condition and possible redemption as it is about God's written word for those of us who are believers. King David got away with nothing and everybody knows of his hypocrisy and yes he's still a hero of the Bible as you put it.

Don't let em get to you Guest, even ole scratch can use the scripture to suit his purpose.

Thanks. This kind of stuff used to get to me but I guess I'm a little jaded and experienced now when I logg on to CF and I don't as easily rise to the bait as I used to. It's not about me anyway.

 

[Bart]

The Biblical Patriarchs werepolygamists. KingDavid also spread his seed around, and so did Solomon who had something like 700 wives and 300 concubines.Different Jewish sects have practiced polygamy throughout the centuries. David was chastised not for having more than one wife, butfor stealing another man's wife, and causing him to be killed.


How about these writings from the lawgiver Moses? Det. 21: 10-17.
<DT><A name=v10>10 </A>
<DD>"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives,
<DT><A name=v11>11 </A>
<DD>if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife,
<DT><A name=v12>12 </A>
<DD><SUP>5</SUP> you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails
<DT><A name=v13>13 </A>
<DD>and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.
<DT><A name=v14>14 </A>
<DD>However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.
<DT><A name=v15>15 </A>
<DD>"If a man with two wives loves one and dislikes the other; and if both bear him sons, but the first-born is of her whom he dislikes:
<DT><A name=v16>16 </A>
<DD>when he comes to bequeath his property to his sons he may not consider as his first-born the son of the wife he loves, in preference to his true first-born, the son of the wife whom he dislikes.
<DT><A name=v17>17 </A>
<DD>On the contrary, he shall recognize as his first-born the son of her whom he dislikes, giving him a double share of whatever he happens to own, since he is the first fruits of his manhood, and to him belong the rights of the first-born. </DD>Edited by: Bart

 

[Kaptain]

Seems like an undo amount of time and energy is spent on arresting groups of non-violent people who by enlarge voluntarily live as they do. What's the real story on why these groups are so scary? The forced underage marriages were few and far between. And since when did our government really care that much about 25 year olds screwing 16 year olds? If I reported my neighbor for such a crime the police would laugh at me and tell me not to call them again, and they certainly wouldn't arrest the whole neighborhood.

As for the Biblical discussion, I found it best to ignore the Old Testament, or at the very least to use a lot of discretion. I prefer the New Testament as moral guideline. Exactly why we can't base our foreign policy on obscure verses from the Old Testament.

 

[White Shogun]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

And yes, some of these WERE actually illegal just a couple of decades ago. You could be jailed for committing adultery or sodomy.

Do we go back to those times? What do you say?

 

[Bart]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

Interesting questions Shogun. I have only one wife, and she is quite sufficient for me, but one would be hard pressed to say polygamy is immoral based on New Testament standards. Precious little there about the subject.

Seems like an undo amount of time and energy is spent on arresting groups of non-violent people who by enlarge voluntarily live as they do. What's the real story on why these groups are so scary? The forced underage marriages were few and far between. And since when did our government really care that much about 25 year olds screwing 16 year olds?

The government doen't seem to care about a black male for example, impregnating several women that he's not even married to, andforcing the rest ofus to care for his offspring while he does everything but provide for his own. This is very common behavior which gets a free pass. Now that isimmoral.

 

[White Shogun]

Another anomaly of our criminal justice system is the crime of prostitution.

A woman can give it away for free, to men in groups or individually; she can bed you for the cost of dinner and a movie, or a joint and a six-pack; she can even EARN MONEY selling her sex in the porn industry. But she cannot 'officially' have sex with a man (or woman, or donkey, or..) for money.

Logic tells me if the making of pornography is legal, prostitution should be legal. If a man hires a prostitute, but films it for posting on the Internet later, is it prostitution or pornography?

It's illegal for a married man to solicit a prostitute, but not illegal for him to sleep with other women (or men, for that matter) as long as she has sex with him for free - or for the mere cost of some jewelry and fine clothes. The more upscale non-prostitute prostitute, however, will 'give away' her time, company, and vagina for an apartment, decent furniture, and once in a while, an extravagant date in the city's finest restaurants.

I don't understand why free sex between consenting adults is legal but paid sex between consenting adults is not. It's illogical.

 

[white is right]

In Canada they have prostitution as legal if only the prostitute and her dependents prosper from her "work". If there is a boyfriend(who lives with her) or she works for an agency or a bordello, then it's a crime. I suspect the organized crime element is the reason why it's illegal. Also prudishness. Back when the temperance movement was strong busting known "joy houses" was as big as busting speakeasies. Edited by: white is right

 

[guest301]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

And yes, some of these WERE actually illegal just a couple of decades ago. You could be jailed for committing adultery or sodomy.

Do we go back to those times? What do you say?

I say yes to some degree. People actually got sent to jail on morals charges and there is something to be said for that. It kept the homosexuals firmly in the closet and they had no influence on our culture at all like they do now. I think going to jail for the other stuff you mentioned like adultery and fornication is far too problematic and puritanical and would follow the fate of prohibition which was a disaster and turned half the country into criminals. I don't know what the solution is but the concept of shame is missing in our culture and something needs to be done to get some of that back.

 

[guest301]

Just to add a little more to the discussion. I think judges in divorce cases and child custody cases should take the moral behaviour of the parties involved more into account in regards to any decision he renders. That's part of the solution, a judge making a judgement.

 

[white is right]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

And yes, some of these WERE actually illegal just a couple of decades ago. You could be jailed for committing adultery or sodomy.

Do we go back to those times? What do you say?

I say yes to some degree. People actually got sent to jail on morals charges and there is something to be said for that. It kept the homosexuals firmly in the closet and they had no influence on our culture at all like they do now. I think going to jail for the other stuff you mentioned like adultery and fornication is far too problematic and puritanical and would follow the fate of prohibition which was a disaster and turned half the country into criminals. I don't know what the solution is but the concept of shame is missing in our culture and something needs to be done to get some of that back.

Half of "Hollyweird" would be in jail or have a criminal record. The last celebrity I know who had a criminal record on morals grounds was Frank Sinatra. I know Bill Tilden had one for buggery or sodomy.

 

[White Shogun]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

And yes, some of these WERE actually illegal just a couple of decades ago. You could be jailed for committing adultery or sodomy.

Do we go back to those times? What do you say?

I say yes to some degree. People actually got sent to jail on morals charges and there is something to be said for that. It kept the homosexuals firmly in the closet and they had no influence on our culture at all like they do now. I think going to jail for the other stuff you mentioned like adultery and fornication is far too problematic and puritanical and would follow the fate of prohibition which was a disaster and turned half the country into criminals. I don't know what the solution is but the concept of shame is missing in our culture and something needs to be done to get some of that back.

So essentially you see homosexuality as a more grievous sin than cheating on your wife, for example?

 

[Menelik]

So essentially you see homosexuality as a more grievous sin than cheating on your wife, for example?

Biblically speaking (and I'm no expert) a sin is a sin. The only one that the bible says is unforgivable is to blaspheme against the holy spirit. My understanding of that is that it means to turn away from God if you have been saved. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. However Caesar, government, assigns different consequences (laws) against different sins.

 

[jaxvid]

So essentially you see homosexuality as a more grievous sin than cheating on your wife, for example?

Biblically speaking (and I'm no expert) a sin is a sin. The only one that the bible says is unforgivable is to blaspheme against the holy spirit. My understanding of that is that it means to turn away from God if you have been saved. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. However Caesar, government, assigns different consequences (laws) against different sins.

I know Catholics look at this diffently for what it's worth. There are mortal and venial sins which carry different weight as violations of God's will.


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

There are a great many kinds of sins.

Scripture provides several lists of them.The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit:

'Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.'" (C.C.C. # 1852)


Other lists are:
"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of God?Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God." [1 Cor. 6:9-10]

"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." [Lk. 12:10]

"Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]

"Outside (of the Kingdom of God) are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." [Rev. 22:15]

"If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person 's share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." [Rev. 22:19]

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord.Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup.For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves.For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." [1 Cor. 11:27-30]


"Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate.

They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission.The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.These are what defile a man."But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds." (C.C.C. # 1853)

 

[White Shogun]

So essentially you see homosexuality as a more grievous sin than cheating on your wife, for example?

Biblically speaking (and I'm no expert) a sin is a sin. The only one that the bible says is unforgivable is to blaspheme against the holy spirit. My understanding of that is that it means to turn away from God if you have been saved. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. However Caesar, government, assigns different consequences (laws) against different sins.

Just to clarify, I realize that a sin is a sin is a sin. My question was asked meant to be asked directly of 301, who said that he would like to return to former times when moral crimes were outlawed. As I understood his comment, he would prefer that law be used to keep homosexuals underground or in the closet, but would not use the law to prevent adultery. Therefore, I drew the conclusion that in his opinion homosexuality must be worse than adultery, if we choose to outlaw one and not the other. I'm not trying to prove a point or argue, just curious about the reasoning behind his comment.

My own opinion would be that adultery is worse because you are breaking your word to someone you ostensibly love, whereas homosexual sex is defined as acts between consenting adults of the same sex. (I suppose that adulterous sex with a person of the same gender would double the sin quotient, eh?) However, I'm not sure that a law enforced by the government should be enforced in either case.

Really though, adultery is more or less a breach of (the marital) contract, whereas any other sex is just people, well, having sex, from the non-theological point of view.

 

[guest301]

If polygamy should be illegal on moral grounds, based on New Testament standards, shouldn't we also outlaw the following:

Lying
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality

And yes, some of these WERE actually illegal just a couple of decades ago. You could be jailed for committing adultery or sodomy.

Do we go back to those times? What do you say?

I say yes to some degree. People actually got sent to jail on morals charges and there is something to be said for that. It kept the homosexuals firmly in the closet and they had no influence on our culture at all like they do now. I think going to jail for the other stuff you mentioned like adultery and fornication is far too problematic and puritanical and would follow the fate of prohibition which was a disaster and turned half the country into criminals. I don't know what the solution is but the concept of shame is missing in our culture and something needs to be done to get some of that back.

So essentially you see homosexuality as a more grievous sin than cheating on your wife, for example?

I think both the sin of adultery and homosexuality are serious but I think homosexuality is worse, in fact far worse. As a practical matter which I indicated in my first post, adultery happens too often to make it illegal and our overcrowded jails and prison system would not be able to handle it, obviously. But like I said in a previous post, I think things like adultery, addictive gambling, being slothful, lazy and unemployeed should be something a judge takes into account in regards to divorce and child custody issues even more than they do now. Nobody wants to make a judgement anymore about anybody unless you are white and/or a christian.
Back to the sin is a sin issue and there is no difference viewpoint. That lame viewpoint has infected the church like a virus and has turned large amounts of Christians into milquetoast pantywaists with no common sense. There are degrees of sin and punishment throughout scripture both Old Testament and New Testament with different punishments for each sin. Jesus openly talks about the Pharisees being guilty of "greater sin" (his words) and has a special warning for those who harm one of his little ones. There are the seven deadly sins, the abominations of homosexuality and beastiality where the bible actually calls for the death of people who engage in those acts(old testament). I am not saying I want to go back to that. I am just saying that shame and judgement needs to make a comeback to our culture because we are soon to be on a path of no return if we are not there already. As another poster mentioned, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin and I think I just proved that there are levels of sin in God's eyes. Scripture says 'where sin abounds, grace even more abounds. That implies to me that the greater the sin, the more grace that's needed. We all are sinful and have a equal need for a saviour but not for a equal amount of his forgiveness and grace. That's just common sense. There is spiritual correctness in the church that is very much like political correctness and the all sin is the same concept is part of that. It's crapola. You don't really believe that Christians are suppossed to think that someone who molests a child is in the same category as someone who lies on his resume. They are both sins but come on! That post was not just a reply to your post Shogun but some of the others as well.Edited by: guest301

 

[guest301]

I didn't intend to make that one long paragraph, I thought I had spaced it out. Sorry for the difficult read, fellas.Edited by: guest301

 

[White Shogun]

Adultery was also punished by death in the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

301, you still didn't really explain why you think homosexuality is worse than adultery?

What in your opinion constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[guest301]

Adultery was also punished by death in the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

301, you still didn't really explain why you think homosexuality is worse than adultery?

What in your opinion constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

I am aware of those scripture passages Shogun but I still find homosexuality far worse but I am very glad that the death penalty is no longer the punishment for adultery but clearly as you have established God takes the sin of adultery very seriously as do I. But homosexuality is worse because of the nature of it and the impact on society at large. Homosexuality changes everything about a man who engages in it. It changes his looks, his voice, his mannerisms, his self control,his sense of right and wrong and the rampant sin of homosexuality will rapidly hasten the decline of any civilization. Many great men in the bible committed adultery and I suspect a few posters here at CF have done that as well. But you know what, I could easily sit down at a dinner table, have a meal and have a open, honest and enjoyable discussion with just about anybody here who has had that sin in his past. I would as a Christian have a hard time having a discussion and have respect for a flaming queer who has no intention of changing his behaviour. Maybe as a Christian it's wrong for me to feel that way but just being honest about it.

Your other question about what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit is much more difficult to answer. I don't believe it's possible for a true christian to committ that sin because of the very nature of it and as a former baptist I believe in "once saved, always saved".I think someone who says and states often that the evil acts of men and the devil are the works of God and that God himself engages in sin and evil are very close to committing the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Edited by: guest301