Is Peyton Manning the greatest QB of all-time?

[celticdb15]

I would say no. Mainly because his lack of mobility. He like like a sitting duck back there in the pocket at times. Peyton's a master at sitting back and picking apart a defense,but when there's a pass rush he's not the same player. He's not as clutch as other qbs either. I'd take Elway,Montana,Young, and Favre over him. For old timers Stabauch and Unitas imo. Even if he is a HOF player that performance last night will not be forgotten and will be used against him. If Superbowl was played in October Peyton's your man.

 

[Wes Woodhead]

Obviously Manning cant even be in the discussion for greatest of all time. Young, Montana, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, Star, Kelly, Greise, Rothlisburger, Warner, Tarkenton, Dawson, Theisman, ELI Manning, and many others are ALL better, and clearly better.

Imho Peyton is THE BEST REGULAR SEASON Qb ever, but when the chips are down, Id take guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or maybe even Tim Tebow rather than big Peyton. Hes just so different under pressure.

Steve Young is still the most fun player to watch Ive seen in my 33 years. Until I see anyone better he will be the guy I consider the GOAT. If that guy would not have had to wait so long for a fair shake he would sit atop the records books in about everything.

 

[foobar75]

I think we now have a healthy sample size with which we can render a somewhat objective verdict on this. Manning is definitely in the top 5 and no one has played the game better during the regular season, but it's undeniable that he's not as clutch as some of the other all-time greats. He does crack under pressure and this was amplified with the massive egg the Broncos laid yesterday. I honestly do not see a Brady or Rodgers having a similar performance if surrounded by so many weapons on offense.

This is a good discussion to have and there will be some differences of opinion. I'm bummed because all of it would've been permanently put to rest with a win yesterday. This was such a missed opportunity, and I'm not sure DEN will get another one, unless that roster is tweaked especially on the defensive side in order to take some of the burden off Manning.

 

[Carolina Speed]

Obviously Manning cant even be in the discussion for greatest of all time. Young, Montana, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, Star, Kelly, Greise, Rothlisburger, Warner, Tarkenton, Dawson, Theisman, ELI Manning, and many others are ALL better, and clearly better.

Imho Peyton is THE BEST REGULAR SEASON Qb ever, but when the chips are down, Id take guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or maybe even Tim Tebow rather than big Peyton. Hes just so different under pressure.

Steve Young is still the most fun player to watch Ive seen in my 33 years. Until I see anyone better he will be the guy I consider the GOAT. If that guy would not have had to wait so long for a fair shake he would sit atop the records books in about everything.

Not taking anything away from Young, but he was in the NFL by age 24 and had started 39 games by age 31.

Staubach had a similar path but didn't see the NFL until age 27 and only had 14 starts before age 31.

What Staubach did between age 29 to 36 was amazing considering he missed about 8 years of his prime!

4 Super Bowls and 2 wins and should have won 3. Like Young he missed alot of his prime. I would have like to have seen these 2 QB's with those 7-8 years in their 20's!

 

[white is right]

Five regular season MVPs and likely every meaningful career record before he's done make his case. With 32 teams in a league that fine-tunes itself to have "parity," including 12 teams in the playoffs every year, very few QBs are going to win multiple Super Bowls. Dan Marino was an all-time great but didn't win a ring. If the heavy emphasis is going to be on Super Bowl victories, then Terry Bradshaw is tied with Joe Montana as the greatest QB ever but I wouldn't put Bradshaw in the top 25. Peyton Manning is still the best to ever play the position but that won't be a widely shared position after the Broncos imploded yesterday.

If playoff success is the juice that separates Montana and Brady from Manning then you have to rate them higher. Like Don said if he plays long enough he will have every individual record for a qb. I think he will be viewed by football historians similar to Wilt Chamberlain who was largely a playoff dud when his Laker teams ran into the Celtics.

 

[newguy]

I think you can make an argument that Brady should be considered the best of all time. If one of the plays in each of the super bowls that he lost goes his way, and each one of them could very well have. Then he would be 5 - 0 in super bowls with a perfect season, and would in my mind be the greatest of all time without a doubt.

 

[icsept]

Many people argue that Elway is the GOAT, and he lost 3 Super Bowls - some were blowouts. A 3rd Super Bowl appearance enhances Peyton's legacy, but a win would have cemented it. I think Montana/Brady are your top two.

 

[Carolina Speed]

Guys we've had some great posts on this subject and I appreciate all the input! If you can't tell, I love this stuff. As I was thinking about what everyone has said, I wanted to throw in how the QB's did in their respective era. In other words did they win, however, I understand it's difficult to compare eras for various reasons. For example, Manning may end up setting the most significant passing records, but he and Favre, etc. threw more, attempted, more than guys like Bradshaw and Staubach. With that in mind, I compiled the winning percentage of 12 QB's during both the regular season and post season. QB's who have won at least 2 SB's, except Marino, Favre, Manning, Young and Unitas because some of you thought they may be the best.

I will list them order of whom most thought was best..

1. Joe Montana, REG. Season, 117-47/ 71%, Playoffs, 16-7/ 70% 4 SB Wins

2. Peyton Manning, Reg. Sea., 167-73/ 70%, Playoffs, 11-12/ 48% 1 SB Win

3. Tom Brady, Reg. Sea., 148-143/ 77%. Playoffs, 18-9/ 67% 3 SB Wins

4. Bret Favre, Reg. Sea., 186-112/ 62%.Playoffs, 13-11/ 54% 1 SB Win

5. Roger Staubach, Reg. Sea., 85-29/ 75%. Playoffs, 11-6/ 65% 2 SB Wins

6. Steve Young, Reg. Sea., 94-49/ 65%. Playoffs, 8-6/ 57% 1 SB Win

7. Johnny Unitas, Reg. Sea., 118-64/ 65%. Playoffs, 6-2/ 75% 1 SB Win

8. John Elway, Reg. Sea., 148-82/ 64%. Playoffs, 14-7/ 67% 2 SB Wins

9. Troy Aikman, Reg. Sea., 97-71/ 57%. Playoffs, 11-4/ 73% 3 SB Wins

10.Terry Bradshaw, Reg. Sea. 107-51/ 68%. Playoffs, 14-5/ 74% 4 SB Wins

11. Eli Manning, Reg. Sea. 85-66/ 56%. Playoffs, 8-3/ 73% 2 SB Wins

12. Dan Marino, Reg. Sea. 147-93/ 61%. Playoffs, 8-10/ 44% 0 SB wins

Otto Graham, did have a 81% reg. season winning% and 75% in the playoffs.
Sammy Baugh was 11-10 regular season as a starting QB and had no playoff stats as a QB.

1.A lot going on here, like is Peyton Manning the best regular season QB of all-time? Tom Brady and Roger Staubach have the best regular season winning percentages! Manning is 4th on this list.

2.Joe Montana, the only QB at 70% or more in both the regular season and playoffs winning percentages and 4 SB's. Staubach 2 SB's and 1 playoff win away from joining him.:Cry:

3. Johnny U. 75%, Terry Bradshaw, 74%, and Troy Aikman/Eli Manning at 73%, the top 4 in winning percentage in the playoffs, with Montana 5th at 70%.

4...and finally, I heard someone today, say they thought Dan Marino was the best overall QB they ever saw.

Just thought this was interesting in regards to the discussion. Thoughts? Feel free to add someone I didn't mention, I'm sure I missed someone. Hopefully I'm correct on all the numbers, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[icsept]

I'd like to know where Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkington stand. Four Super Bowl appearances exceed many of the aforementioned. Also, Tafkenton owned many passing records at the time he retired.

 

[celticdb15]

This is a cool thread,Carolina thanks for those stats! Definitely a lot of great qbs over the years.

 

[Wes Woodhead]

This is a cool thread,Carolina thanks for those stats! Definitely a lot of great qbs over the years.

I agree this is an excellent thread! Carolina, nice job brother. Seeing those stats written out like that its hard to argue against Montana. Those are superior stats!

 

[Carolina Speed]

I'd like to know where Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkington stand. Four Super Bowl appearances exceed many of the aforementioned. Also, Tafkenton owned many passing records at the time he retired.

Jim Kelly, Reg. Sea. 101-59/ 63%, Playoffs. 9-8/ 53% 4 SB appearances, but no wins!

Kelly's career most resembles Marino's, percentage wise. Kelly went to 4 straight SB's and has a better reg. season and playoff winning %, however Marino is widely regarded as the better QB, some say he was the best!

Fran Tarkenton, Reg. Sea. 124-109/ 53%, Playoffs. 6-5/ 55% 3 SB app./ no wins!

Like Tarkenton a lot. He was probably in the top 3 as a runner/scrambler among the 12 guys I mentioned and he did make it to 3 SB's. His playoff winning % is above Manning's, Favre's, and Marino's, but no SB wins. He was a very good QB, but he's probably number 12, at best, among the guys I listed.

 

[GiovaniMarcon]

I'd have to say Joe Montana is the greatest. No one would ever call him a choker.

Of course, Manning himself isn't a choker, but he will be accused of being one. How much choking was involved when he took a lousy team all the way to the Superbowl?

Even Brady is accused of being a choker (especially after his undefeated season leading to the Superbowl loss), and the dude has three Superbowl rings.

This is a nice argument because no matter who one chooses as the greatest ever, he will be right, and he will be wrong.

Also, for the time being anyway, the answer cannot be any Black quarterback, for reasons we all know too well, though many "politically correct" people will say the reason is racism and a lack of opportunity.

Personally I think John Stockton is the greatest point guard in NBA history (and the stats, not his Whiteness, back it up), but he has no ring and lost when the Jazz had a chance at the championship.

Doesn't take away his greatness.

Manning is up there, for sure. One can call him the best ever, and he would be right, and he would be wrong, too.

 

[Wes Woodhead]

Also, for the time being anyway, the answer cannot be any Black quarterback, for reasons we all know too well, though many "politically correct" people will say the reason is racism and a lack of opportunity.

Yes indeed. I guess the argument could be made that Warren Moon is up there in the top 100 or so, but not as high as the top 50.

 

[Carolina Speed]

Yes indeed. I guess the argument could be made that Warren Moon is up there in the top 100 or so, but not as high as the top 50.

Just for ya'lls info........

Warren Moon, Reg. Sea. 102-101, 50%, Playoffs, 3-7, 30%.

He's in the Hall of Fame?

As GM and others have put it, every time some black athlete does something mediocre. he's hailed as the future of the sport.

I would call Warren Moon's success mediocre at best, yet he's in the Hall of Fame!

He's a prime example: to me he has no business in the NFL Hall of Fame!

 

[Carolina Speed]

Just for ya'lls info........

Warren Moon, Reg. Sea. 102-101, 50%, Playoffs, 3-7, 30%.

He's in the Hall of Fame?

As GM and others have put it, every time some black athlete does something mediocre. he's hailed as the future of the sport.

I would call Warren Moon's success mediocre at best, yet he's in the Hall of Fame!

He's a prime example: to me he has no business in the NFL Hall of Fame!

Kurt Warner, Reg. Sea., 66-49, 57%, Playoffs, 9-4, 69%, QB Rat. 93.7, 3SB/ 1 SB win.

Warren Moon QB Rat. 80.9 and no SB appearances.

The same people that question Warner's merit as a Hall of Famer, welcome Moon in with open arms!

 

[Freethinker]

Kurt Warner, Reg. Sea., 66-49, 57%, Playoffs, 9-4, 69%, QB Rat. 93.7, 3SB/ 1 SB win.

Warren Moon QB Rat. 80.9 and no SB appearances.

The same people that question Warner's merit as a Hall of Famer, welcome Moon in with open arms!

Carolina Speed, great tread and great information overall.

I'd like to comment on Moon, even though I was too young to see him play and am only going of statistics here. I know this method can be deceiving so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Moon seems like a good, but not great QB, who compiled impressive statistics by simply starting for many years. He basically was a starter from age 28 to 42 even though his final 5 or so seasons he was basically a .500 player. In the only 2 seasons he lead the NFL is passing yards, he also lead in passing attempts. One of those seasons, he lead the league in interceptions. Overall he career touchdown to interceptions mark is unimpressive: 291 to 233.

Maybe Moon played on many poor teams? Maybe Moon had black privilege to start for so long when he clearly should have retired or been benched? Longevity and durability should be commended, but does a stat compiler with little regular or post season success deserve the hall?

As for Warner, he began his career as a starter at the same age of 28 but walked away at 38. His career completion percentage, record as a starter and touchdown to interceptions ration (208:128) were all better than Moon. By Moon's inclusion, I'd say Warner should be a shoe-in (if the league was fair and did not pander to racial politics).

P.S. - I'd still put Montana at the top with Manning a close 2nd. Depending on how Manning's remaining season(s) go, he could still become the G.O.A.T. in my book. Time will tell.

 

[GiovaniMarcon]

Warren Moon might have been an okay quarterback, but he was a novelty because of his race, and his race is realistically the only reason why anyone would even remember him.

Who, Warren Moon? Oh yeah, Black quarterback at a time where there weren't any, really.

The media gets it backward as they often do when they report these things, though, because just like most things in life, White people pander to Blacks out of some misplaced, useless sense of guilt, and hype the plain and call it vibrant, cheer for the monotone and call it a symphony.

If we're to believe the typical caste argument, that "Larry Bird [or insert-other-dominant-White-athlete] would be just another ball player if he were Black," it's actually WHITES who benefit from hype, and that simply isn't true.

A White quarterback who performed like RGIII would rightfully be declared a bust and ridden out of the NFL on a rail.

Oh, and I'll bet millions of fat, Black welfare losers would [literally] KILL to be able to ball one TENTH as well as Larry Bird.

Whites who become stars are almost always the best on their team. What few White defensive players there are in the league are usually the top players on their units. Nobody is giving White players a prop up, the way the NFL and all sports pander senselessly to Blacks at the expense of everyone else, especially Whites.

Look at how Black people made slant-eye and sex jokes about Jeremy Lin after the dude made the Lakers look stupid, nearly single-handedly. No Black sports writers or other journalists lost their jobs even though many of them were doing it, and indeed, no one ever said they were sorry. I'm no Lin fan, but you can see how Blacks let their inner-racist out and never get called out for it.

There is a superior standard of achievement and behavioral expectations set for Whites, and an inferior level set for Blacks. Those who demand fairness are called racist when they point this out, yet it's the racist powers-that-be, who treat Blacks like retarded children and not thinking, sentient human beings, who are the real racists.

Can you imaging if some White douchebag said racist crap about someone?

People make a big deal out of Wilson's race ONLYbecause they want to credit his Blackness with his success, because the NFL wants to gradually create conditions where being Black is a prerequisite for being in the league. Luckily for those in charge, most people are stupid enough to go along with the program and never ask questions.

 

[davidholly]

Kurt Warner, Reg. Sea., 66-49, 57%, Playoffs, 9-4, 69%, QB Rat. 93.7, 3SB/ 1 SB win.

Warren Moon QB Rat. 80.9 and no SB appearances.

The same people that question Warner's merit as a Hall of Famer, welcome Moon in with open arms!

Warren Moon also never made it to a Conference Championship game. All his playoff wins were in the Wild Card round. In one particular playoff game against the Chiefs he fumbled 5 times.

 

[white is right]

Just for ya'lls info........

Warren Moon, Reg. Sea. 102-101, 50%, Playoffs, 3-7, 30%.

He's in the Hall of Fame?

As GM and others have put it, every time some black athlete does something mediocre. he's hailed as the future of the sport.

I would call Warren Moon's success mediocre at best, yet he's in the Hall of Fame!

He's a prime example: to me he has no business in the NFL Hall of Fame!

I always thought those Houston teams "won". I know they found the craziest ways to implode in the playoffs. Moon also had an offense similar to what Brees has no in New Orleans where the running backs are after thoughts. Back in this era fullbacks and power running was still used by successful teams. Years later after the failure of the offensive system football writers noted that if Houston had some form of a ball control offense they probably would have gotten to a Superbowl or two. Ps Moon's first ballot induction is largely political as his stats while huge were largely inflated and when it mattered like you pointed out he was a mediocre playoff performer. I think he should have had to wait some years or maybe got in with the Seniors Committee.

 

[dwid]

Warren Moon had his offense tailored specifically to his skills (sound familiar to any of the black quarterbacks today?), the run n shoot, which was a novel concept in the NFL in the 90's, but something he was used to playing in the CFL. 4 wideouts spread out. They say the problem is the running game suffered because no tight ends to help with the running game but the running game wasn't that bad. The difference with him running a spread out offense then and someone running now is that in the 90's defenses were built to stop the run, many linebackers completely sucked in coverage (worse than today, they were bigger and built to stop power running attacks). These guys and safeties (who were also mainly there to stop the run) were spread out covering receivers as well as corners who struggle still to this day to stop receivers lined up on the inside when they can't use the sideline as a boundary.


the run n shoot is based on option routes, meaning the receivers will cut a certain way based on what the defense is doing. This means the qb has to realize what the d is doing and what the wr is doing and being on the same page. concepts of the run n shoot and option routes are used now today and incorporated now in modern offenses but not used full time.

The fact that he had had such a high interception rate, leading the league a few times means he struggled to read defenses and failed to be on the same page as his receivers. It could be more on his receivers but they should have adapted the game plan at least some point in his career. June Jones has had no problem adapting in college, even resorting to running the ball like when he had Zach Line.

Houston was no different. They had Lorenzo White who rushed for 1200+ yards in 92 with 1800 yards from scrimmage. Mike Rozier rushed for 957 yards in 11 games and then 1k in like 14 games. The rushing totals weren't much different than opposing teams they played, and as you can see the rb was heavily involved in the passing game with White getting over 500 yards receiving that one year.

It would be interesting if he had a White counterpart running the same type of offense in the same time period, it seems like more success should have been had and the NFL should have converted to a passing league much earlier, but it didn't start until Brady ran 4 receiver sets for a majority of the game (70 percent) in the 2007. Of course there was the greatest show on turf but it seems 2007 was when the NFL really ca passing league. The only thing is Warner won a Superbowl with that offense until Bellicheck and the Patriots were able to slow down and funny enough copy aspects of it later on and of course modify it, Marhsal Faulk lined up in the slot quite a bit. Welker did everything Faulk did except take handoffs, getting over half of his yards after the catch.

Good but overrated and made the pro bowl 9 times no matter what his stats were, leading the league in interceptions some times and probably turnovers in general because he had 161 fumbles in the regular season for his career. Fumbles were something Warner was criticized for, people often discrediting him saying he had small hands but it was never mentioned about Moon from what I have read. 3-7 in the post season .

 

[PamelaOC]

Moon was a good quarterback, but Hall of Fame-worthy? No. One must be more than merely "good" to belong in the Hall of Fame.

Getting back to Manning, the bad news is that brainwashed, dumbed down, Ten Second Soundbyte Amerika will see only his poor Super Bowl 48 performance when judging him and forget the amazing things he has accomplished in his career. The good news is that if he bounces back next year, that will be all that the fools remember.

 

[Don Wassall]

I don't have a problem with Moon being in the Hall. He put up great stats for a long period of time, and if he hadn't played in the CFL he would have broken most of the NFL career marks when he retired. He was durable and consistently very good, which I often state is what characterizes good White athletes and good White football players.

When Moon came out of college there actually was an attitude that blacks couldn't play quarterback, which he in large part broke down. But he remains one of a kind, decades later, when it comes to a black quarterback who can excel from the pocket and who doesn't fade in his 20s or early 30s.

 

[Carolina Speed]

I don't have a problem with Moon being in the Hall. He put up great stats for a long period of time, and if he hadn't played in the CFL he would have broken most of the NFL career marks when he retired. He was durable and consistently very good, which I often state is what characterizes good White athletes and good White football players.

When Moon came out of college there actually was an attitude that blacks couldn't play quarterback, which he in large part broke down. But he remains one of a kind, decades later, when it comes to a black quarterback who can excel from the pocket and who doesn't fade in his 20s or early 30s.

Dave Krieg, Reg. Sea., 98-77, 56%, Playoffs 3-6, 33% QB Rat. 81.5 TD/INT. 261/199
Warren Moon, Reg. Sea., 102-101, 50% Playoffs, 3-7, 30% QB Rat. 80.9 TD/INT. 291/233

Krieg, actually got to an AFC Championship game by beating Dan Marino's Dolphins! Krieg one the NFL's most prolific passers, he is in top 15 in most passing categories, however, he's not in the Hall of Fame, but Moon undeservingly is!

Although Krieg didn't throw for as many yards as Moon, we could use the same argument as Moon. Krieg sat behind Jim Zorn for about 4 years in Seattle, so he missed some of his prime years in the NFL, same as Moon!

And what about Ken Anderson, as someone here mentioned, he actually played in a SB, unlike Moon who never even got to a conference championship game.

Ken Anderson, Reg. Sea. 91-81, 53%, Playoffs, 2-4, 33%, QB Rat. 81.9, TD/INT. 197/160, and played in a SB!

If Warren Moon deserves to be there, which I don't think he does, then certainly Krieg does and maybe Anderson to!

Again, we celebrate black mediocrity! but that's OK with me, I'm glad whites are held to a higher standard!

 

[whiteathlete33]

Dave Krieg, Reg. Sea., 98-77, 56%, Playoffs 3-6, 33% QB Rat. 81.5 TD/INT. 261/199
Warren Moon, Reg. Sea., 102-101, 50% Playoffs, 3-7, 30% QB Rat. 80.9 TD/INT. 291/233

Krieg, actually got to an AFC Championship game by beating Dan Marino's Dolphins! Krieg one the NFL's most prolific passers, he is in top 15 in most passing categories, however, he's not in the Hall of Fame, but Moon undeservingly is!

Although Krieg didn't throw for as many yards as Moon, we could use the same argument as Moon. Krieg sat behind Jim Zorn for about 4 years in Seattle, so he missed some of his prime years in the NFL, same as Moon!

And what about Ken Anderson, as someone here mentioned, he actually played in a SB, unlike Moon who never even got to a conference championship game.

Ken Anderson, Reg. Sea. 91-81, 53%, Playoffs, 2-4, 33%, QB Rat. 81.9, TD/INT. 197/160, and played in a SB!

If Warren Moon deserves to be there, which I don't think he does, then certainly Krieg does and maybe Anderson to!

Again, we celebrate black mediocrity! but that's OK with me, I'm glad whites are held to a higher standard!

Moon was an above average quarterback, but nothing special. I agree with Carolina that he probably shouldn't be in the HOF but he made it there because he's black and also longevity.