Economic Crisis unlike 1929 depression

Freethinker

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Found this linked off Ron Paul's site. A bit long but interesting and could provide insight towards what is to come.

The Real Great Depression

The depression of 1929 is the wrong model for the current economic crisis

By SCOTT REYNOLDS NELSON

As a historian who works on the 19th century, I have been reading my newspaper with a considerable sense of dread. While many commentators on the recent mortgage and banking crisis have drawn parallels to the Great Depression of 1929, that comparison is not particularly apt. Two years ago, I began research on the Panic of 1873, an event of some interest to my colleagues in American business and labor history but probably unknown to everyone else. But as I turn the crank on the microfilm reader, I have been hearing weird echoes of recent events.

When commentators invoke 1929, I am dubious. According to most historians and economists, that depression had more to do with overlarge factory inventories, a stock-market crash, and Germany's inability to pay back war debts, which then led to continuing strain on British gold reserves. None of those factors is really an issue now. Contemporary industries have very sensitive controls for trimming production as consumption declines; our current stock-market dip followed bank problems that emerged more than a year ago; and there are no serious international problems with gold reserves, simply because banks no longer peg their lending to them.

In fact, the current economic woes look a lot like what my 96-year-old grandmother still calls "the real Great Depression." She pinched pennies in the 1930s, but she says that times were not nearly so bad as the depression her grandparents went through. That crash came in 1873 and lasted more than four years. It looks much more like our current crisis.

The problems had emerged around 1870, starting in Europe. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire, formed in 1867, in the states unified by Prussia into the German empire, and in France, the emperors supported a flowering of new lending institutions that issued mortgages for municipal and residential construction, especially in the capitals of Vienna, Berlin, and Paris. Mortgages were easier to obtain than before, and a building boom commenced. Land values seemed to climb and climb; borrowers ravenously assumed more and more credit, using unbuilt or half-built houses as collateral. The most marvelous spots for sightseers in the three cities today are the magisterial buildings erected in the so-called founder period.

But the economic fundamentals were shaky. Wheat exporters from Russia and Central Europe faced a new international competitor who drastically undersold them. The 19th-century version of containers manufactured in China and bound for Wal-Mart consisted of produce from farmers in the American Midwest. They used grain elevators, conveyer belts, and massive steam ships to export train loads of wheat to abroad. Britain, the biggest importer of wheat, shifted to the cheap stuff quite suddenly around 1871. By 1872 kerosene and manufactured food were rocketing out of America's heartland, undermining rapeseed, flour, and beef prices. The crash came in Central Europe in May 1873, as it became clear that the region's assumptions about continual economic growth were too optimistic. Europeans faced what they came to call the American Commercial Invasion. A new industrial superpower had arrived, one whose low costs threatened European trade and a European way of life.

As continental banks tumbled, British banks held back their capital, unsure of which institutions were most involved in the mortgage crisis. The cost to borrow money from another bank  the interbank lending rate  reached impossibly high rates. This banking crisis hit the United States in the fall of 1873. Railroad companies tumbled first. They had crafted complex financial instruments that promised a fixed return, though few understood the underlying object that was guaranteed to investors in case of default. (Answer: nothing). The bonds had sold well at first, but they had tumbled after 1871 as investors began to doubt their value, prices weakened, and many railroads took on short-term bank loans to continue laying track. Then, as short-term lending rates skyrocketed across the Atlantic in 1873, the railroads were in trouble. When the railroad financier Jay Cooke proved unable to pay off his debts, the stock market crashed in September, closing hundreds of banks over the next three years. The panic continued for more than four years in the United States and for nearly six years in Europe.

The long-term effects of the Panic of 1873 were perverse. For the largest manufacturing companies in the United States  those with guaranteed contracts and the ability to make rebate deals with the railroads  the Panic years were golden. Andrew Carnegie, Cyrus McCormick, and John D. Rockefeller had enough capital reserves to finance their own continuing growth. For smaller industrial firms that relied on seasonal demand and outside capital, the situation was dire. As capital reserves dried up, so did their industries. Carnegie and Rockefeller bought out their competitors at fire-sale prices. The Gilded Age in the United States, as far as industrial concentration was concerned, had begun.

As the panic deepened, ordinary Americans suffered terribly. A cigar maker named Samuel Gompers who was young in 1873 later recalled that with the panic, "economic organization crumbled with some primeval upheaval." Between 1873 and 1877, as many smaller factories and workshops shuttered their doors, tens of thousands of workers  many former Civil War soldiers  became transients. The terms "tramp" and "bum," both indirect references to former soldiers, became commonplace American terms. Relief rolls exploded in major cities, with 25-percent unemployment (100,000 workers) in New York City alone. Unemployed workers demonstrated in Boston, Chicago, and New York in the winter of 1873-74 demanding public work. In New York's Tompkins Square in 1874, police entered the crowd with clubs and beat up thousands of men and women. The most violent strikes in American history followed the panic, including by the secret labor group known as the Molly Maguires in Pennsylvania's coal fields in 1875, when masked workmen exchanged gunfire with the "Coal and Iron Police," a private force commissioned by the state. A nationwide railroad strike followed in 1877, in which mobs destroyed railway hubs in Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Cumberland, Md.

In Central and Eastern Europe, times were even harder. Many political analysts blamed the crisis on a combination of foreign banks and Jews. Nationalistic political leaders (or agents of the Russian czar) embraced a new, sophisticated brand of anti-Semitism that proved appealing to thousands who had lost their livelihoods in the panic. Anti-Jewish pogroms followed in the 1880s, particularly in Russia and Ukraine. Heartland communities large and small had found a scapegoat: aliens in their own midst.

The echoes of the past in the current problems with residential mortgages trouble me. Loans after about 2001 were issued to first-time home buyers who signed up for adjustable rate mortgages they could likely never pay off, even in the best of times. Real-estate speculators, hoping to flip properties, overextended themselves, assuming that home prices would keep climbing. Those debts were wrapped in complex securities that mortgage companies and other entrepreneurial banks then sold to other banks; concerned about the stability of those securities, banks then bought a kind of insurance policy called a credit-derivative swap, which risk managers imagined would protect their investments. More than two million foreclosure filings  default notices, auction-sale notices, and bank repossessions  were reported in 2007. By then trillions of dollars were already invested in this credit-derivative market. Were those new financial instruments resilient enough to cover all the risk? (Answer: no.) As in 1873, a complex financial pyramid rested on a pinhead. Banks are hoarding cash. Banks that hoard cash do not make short-term loans. Businesses large and small now face a potential dearth of short-term credit to buy raw materials, ship their products, and keep goods on shelves.

If there are lessons from 1873, they are different from those of 1929. Most important, when banks fall on Wall Street, they stop all the traffic on Main Street  for a very long time. The protracted reconstruction of banks in the United States and Europe created widespread unemployment. Unions (previously illegal in much of the world) flourished but were then destroyed by corporate institutions that learned to operate on the edge of the law. In Europe, politicians found their scapegoats in Jews, on the fringes of the economy. (Americans, on the other hand, mostly blamed themselves; many began to embrace what would later be called fundamentalist religion.)

The post-panic winners, even after the bailout, might be those firms  financial and otherwise  that have substantial cash reserves. A widespread consolidation of industries may be on the horizon, along with a nationalistic response of high tariff barriers, a decline in international trade, and scapegoating of immigrant competitors for scarce jobs. The failure in July of the World Trade Organization talks begun in Doha seven years ago suggests a new wave of protectionism may be on the way.

In the end, the Panic of 1873 demonstrated that the center of gravity for the world's credit had shifted west  from Central Europe toward the United States. The current panic suggests a further shift  from the United States to China and India. Beyond that I would not hazard a guess. I still have microfilm to read.

Scott Reynolds Nelson is a professor of history at the College of William and Mary. Among his books is Steel Drivin' Man: John Henry, the Untold Story of an American legend (Oxford University Press, 2006).
 

jaxvid

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Good article. Very interesting reading. It would seem to me though that the blame that was put upon jews was correctly directed, as the finacial pyramid that isdiscussed was owned and operated by them. Note how good things got when thejewish power was reduced, note also how bad things have gotten as they have assumed power over media, government, and finance. Coincidence?
 

Colonel_Reb

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I posted this article on my myspace blog today. Thanks for posting it Freethinker.
 

Jimmy Chitwood

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thanks for posting this, Freethinker.
 
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Best article I have read about the current problems. People forget that until the Great Depression of 1929, the 1873 crash was the greatest finacial disaster in US history. Today's problems do not seem like the '29 crash.
I have to agree protectionism is coming, along with placing the blame on illegal immigrants- which can easily be proved. If India and China suffer from this, well... too bad. We have our own problems.Edited by: screamingeagle
 

Freethinker

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So I open my newspaper on my morning commute to work and what do I see, Pelosi calling for a second economic stimulus package. UNBELIEVABLE! This woman is psycho and is the majority leader?!?!
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What a country....

A related article: Pelosi Talks Stimulus

Also, I cannot help but find it amusing that it hasn't even been a week and already "experts" are admitting the bailout bill is a failure. When will Washington learn that more tampering and more pumping of money into a failed system just will not work.

Either we have the dumbest group of elected officials with little to zero knowledge of economics or we have an evil group who are intentionally debasing the value of the dollar for personal gain and potentially the creation of the NAU and the Amero. Are we entering the "desperate times" that would be needed to pull off such a feat?Edited by: Freethinker
 

Don Wassall

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Freethinker said:
Either we have the dumbest group of elected officials with little to zero knowledge of economics or we have an evil group who are intentionally debasing the value of the dollar for person gain and potentially the creation of the NAU and the Amero.


How about alternative three -- whoresfollowing the ordersof their pimps.
 

Freethinker

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Yea good 3rd option Don. I hear Israel's pimp hand is pretty strong.
 

Bart

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I'm curious as to the effectthis meltdown will have on the elections. Who benefits the most? Will there be a backlash against any party in particular, if so which one? People will want something/anything to be done. Will Obama benefit if there is to be a 'Throw the rascals out, and try something different' sentiment? I've heard relatives say that he couldn't do any worse than the Republicans.


What about the timing of this implosion? We've heard bout the shakiness of the system for years. Is it coincidental that all this has happened less than a month to the elections, or not? Any thoughts?
 

White Shogun

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It's funnier'n hell to me that the stock market continues to go further down the tank, right after the $700 billion dollar bailout that was supposed to 'save the economy!'

WE MUST ACT NOW!! has turned into, 'well, these things take time. We can't expect things to correct over night...'
 

SteveB

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I read in the Wall Street Journal opinion page today a quote from a Nobel Prize economist. He said that "they (the Fed, Treasury, Congress) are pushing on a string that can only be straightened by the pull of buyers." Buyers of homes, stocks, cars, etc. No matter what the gov't does it isn't going to work unless people begin buying again.
 

Poacher

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I'm guessing a Dow base of 7K is not unrealistic.

Kind of ironic how the Baby Boomers who started the snivel rights nonsense which led directly to our government bullying banks to lend to uncredit worthy minorities are now the ones getting their 401K's vaporized.
 

White Shogun

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SteveB said:
I read in the Wall Street Journal opinion page today a quote from a Nobel Prize economist. He said that "they (the Fed, Treasury, Congress) are pushing on a string that can only be straightened by the pull of buyers." Buyers of homes, stocks, cars, etc. No matter what the gov't does it isn't going to work unless people begin buying again.

Actually, I was thinking - wouldn't now be a good time to buy stocks? The old adage says buy low sell high. Everyone is selling like crazy because it's tanking.. isn't this the time to get in? Or is the bottom gonna fall out and there not going to be a stock market anymore or what?
 

SteveB

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White Shogun said:
SteveB said:
I read in the Wall Street Journal opinion page today a quote from a Nobel Prize economist. He said that "they (the Fed, Treasury, Congress) are pushing on a string that can only be straightened by the pull of buyers." Buyers of homes, stocks, cars, etc. No matter what the gov't does it isn't going to work unless people begin buying again.

Actually, I was thinking - wouldn't now be a good time to buy stocks? The old adage says buy low sell high. Everyone is selling like crazy because it's tanking.. isn't this the time to get in? Or is the bottom gonna fall out and there not going to be a stock market anymore or what?

Absolutely, timing is everything. Alot of people are waiting to see where it bottoms out before they jump in. Warren Buffet made his billions by bargain hunting in tanking markets.
 

White Shogun

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I just read that Iceland has went bankrupt. They shut down the last of their banks and no country will accept kronars or whatever they're called. They are asking for the IMF to bail them out.
 

Bart

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White Shogun said:
Actually, I was thinking - wouldn't now be a good time to buy stocks? The old adage says buy low sell high. Everyone is selling like crazy because it's tanking.. isn't this the time to get in? Or is the bottom gonna fall out and there not going to be a stock market anymore or what?


People are afraid to jump in because they fear there is still a long way to drop. To me it doesn't make sense that the markets have tanked to the degree they have. After all, it is not like all the home loans for example, were made without collateral. Perhaps things are askew, but the houses didn't evaporate into thin air. Fear and panic have ruled the day. I believe many of the insiders have a damn good idea of when to step in and buy at bargain basement prices. You know, the bailout is going to the same boys who caused the bottom to fall out. They will have plenty of money to purchase everything they want. Talk about an historic transfer of wealth.
 

Quiet Speed

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Bart said:
I'm curious as to the effect this meltdown will have on the elections.  Who benefits the most?   Will there be a backlash against any party in particular, if so which one?   People will want something/anything to be done.  Will Obama benefit if there is to be a 'Throw the rascals out, and try something different'  sentiment?  I've heard relatives say that he couldn't do any worse than the Republicans.


What about the timing of this implosion?  We've heard bout the shakiness of the system for years.  Is it coincidental that all this has happened less than a month to the elections, or not?   Any thoughts?  


All questions I've considered. Obama has gotten a lot of mileage from the meltdown even though it looks like the Democrats are up to their necks in the subprime wreck. It's staggering how inept the Republicans and McCain are.

Here's a piece that may be old news to many here, but it did contain a bit about illegal aliens obtaining mortgages with the aid of LaRaza which I was unaware of.

The Great Mortgage Swindle - The Taxpayers Lose Again

Excerpt:

In 2003, President George Bush called for legislation to give the government more oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but his proposal fell on deaf congressional ears, many of whose members were receiving substantial bribes (I mean campaign contributions) from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In 2004, the Office of Management and Budget, found that massive fraudulent bookkeeping practices were occurring at Fannie Mae and that these practices were very similar to the fraudelent practices in the Enron Corp case. The OMB determined that these annual false mortgage statistics were used to justify the top executives getting excessive bonuses every year. Unlike the Enron case, however, congress decided not to hold any hearings and the FBI did not launch any criminal investigations. As a result of the OMB report, Franklin Raines & other top execs were forced to resign from Fannie Mae for doing the same thing that Enron executives did (cookin the books), but unlike the Enron case, the Fannie Mae executives only had to give back $31.4 million dollars in fines after a civil proceeding.

In 2005, Senators Chuck Hagel (NE), Elizabeth Dole (NC), John Sununu (NH) and John McCain (AZ) proposed legislation entitled, " The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act" (S-190) that was designed to give the federal government increased federal oversight over Fannie Mae, Freedie Mac and other institutions, but the legislation was met with fierce Democratic partisan opposition and it went nowhere. In support of this legislation, Sen McCain stated: "if Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole."



TWO SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS THAT CONTIBUTED FOR THE MORTGAGE INDUSTRY FAILURES:

1 - The National Council of LaRaza, a racist and pro-illegal alien amnesty group, along with its Development Fund, have received millions of dollars in federal funds to "counsel" their constituents (including illegal aliens) on how to obtain mortgages with little to no money down. For years, there has been a rapidly expanding illegal alien home loan racket that the media and the federal government still are unwilling to talk about. Many banks looking for more federal guaranteed loan handouts, led by Wachovia and Bank of America, launched aggressive campaigns designed to attract more illegal alien homebuyers, subsidized by the American taxpayers of course.

2 - Another socialist Racist group ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) demanded "affirmative action" in all lending practices and programs. They pressured banks to make subprime loans to poor people of color with bad credit. Madeline Talbott, a Chicago ACORN leader, has even boasted of "dragging banks kicking and screaming" into these dubious loans. As conservative community activist Robert Woodson put it, "The same corporations that pay ransom to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton also pay ransom to ACORN." The ACORN organization actively supports candidates of the Democratic Party and many ACORN people have also been arrested on various charges involving voter fraud.

To make matters worse, The most recent House and Senate Democratic bail-out legislation contained a well-hidden provision that would forward some of the profits, indirectly, to help fund organizations like LaRaza and ACORN. If this provision is included in the final versions, the American taxpayer will be giving more cash to the very groups that helped create the lending mess in the first place.
 

White Shogun

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Heard on the Rush show today that HUD has admitted at least 5,000,000 illegal aliens purchased property with fraudulent identification and / or social security numbers.
 

Bart

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White Shogun said:
Heard on the Rush show today that HUD has admitted at least 5,000,000 illegal aliens purchased property with fraudulent identification and / or social security numbers.


That number is incredible in itself, but add to that the numberblack and brown citizens who were recipients of mortgages of which they had NO business getting.


The median home price in the U.S is over 200k, in California it is over 500k. We're talking insane amounts of money. Guess who winds up paying the piper?
 

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I tend to follow the advice of Peter Schiff and Jim Rogers. Schiff adheres to the Austrian School of Economics like Ron Paul. I would recommend viewing any of their recent TV spots by searching youtube. Here is an excellent one from Glenn Beck's show. Its from Monday but its still relative.

Peter Schiff on Glenn Beck
 

Kaptain

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No need to go to youtube. All of Peter Schiff's videos are on his Europacific Capital website.
 

Freedom

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I agree 100%. This depression is more like the Long Depression than the Great Depression. There is one major difference. The United States emerged from the Long Depression as the most powerful nation on Earth under the strong character of the Bourbon Democrats(think Grover Cleveland, the most underrated president ever!) and their commitment to freedom and values. The British Empire plummeted in value due to its centralization, hedonist aristocracy, and mercantilist imperialism. Now WERE THE BRITISH EMPIRE and CHINA IS BECOMING 'US.'
Were going to have to rebuild from scratch and in many ways build a new country to protect the values of our nation's founding.
 

Freethinker

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Freedom,

I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, America is going to have to go through a lengthy period of living below our means in order to rebuild. A lost decade as you will.

However, unlike the late 1800's, America is no longer a world leader in production. Our factories have been shut down, the jobs out-sourced and the factories that remain are greatly out-dated. To re-establish America to the once great nation, we need to reverse the current trade deficit and begin producing and saving once more. This of course will be a lengthy and expensive process to rebuild lost industry. After the US economy crashes, how will the government, already up to their eyes in debt, even be able to borrow money to do this? Will China continue to finance us and take back worthless treasury bills (IOUs)? If China becomes the next empire they will no longer play this foolish game.

My concern is that desperate times like these would provide the powers that be the opportunity to centralize and move closer to the North American Union and eventually a world government. Hell if Barrack Hussein Obama becomes President we will got further down that path.

I do remain hopefully though that this economic catastrophe could have a positive impact. More people may wake up and realize that the Ron Paul's of the world are right: bigger government and more regulation does not work. The federal reserve is unconstitutional and needs to be outlawed. Wealth can only be gained through hard work and saving not credit and reckless spending. Only when we get a leader with this foresight, intelligence, honor and integrity can we restore to prominence.
 
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The poor are not primarily of West African descent. Contrary to what
the messed up media portray, most who live in poverty are not Black! Many
are poor Whites. Cambodians and Vietnamese also tend to live in poverty
due to a bad war that hit Vietnam during the 1960s. The idea that Whites
are "the sons of slaveholders" is not true for the most part. Those whose
ancestors owned Black slaves are often nowhere near Blacks today according
to Jim Goad's book The Redneck Manifesto about the problems of
poor Whites in society. Please do not assume that just because a man is
White that he is rich. Blond hair and blue eyes do not guarantee wealth!
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Don Wassall

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About three-fifthsof the poor in the U.S.are white. I always like to point that out to the white-haters who continue to believe that this virulentlyanti-whitecountry is "white supremacist" and that there's something called "white skin privilege" because most of those at the very top are "white." Not that it does any good. Edited by: Don Wassall
 
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