Decline of complete player

[IceSpeed]

I think baseball players are beoming less and less
versatile and I think this relates to the decline of the white
player. Players like Cal Ripken and Bill Mueller are being slowly
replaced by the likes of Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa. The DH rule
may help pitchers, but it allows for lousy fielders to play.
Scott Posednik is receiving no attention.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

IceSpeed: from my limited knowledge of baseball, I think you are correct. It seems that more players are specialists of some sort. None are really all around guys. In the 80's, more players were better all around than they are now. Everyone was athletic in some way, or at least looked that way. They didn't have huge, juiced upper bodies, but they could play some good baseball. I think back on the 88 Dodgers as an example of this, and the 86 Mets. Even watching little of baseball since 1990, I have noticed a big change in the way these guys look and play. I think if there were more all around players, the game would be a lot more fun, and it would emphasize team more, instead of focusing on the "big hitter."

 

[IceSpeed]

Anybody notice how many "minorities" are used as
DHs. Al Oliver, David Ortiz, Rafael Palmeiro, Ruben Sierra, Frank
Thomas, Reggie Jackson, Ellis Burks, Julio Franco, and many others have
been able to pad their hitting stats through being a DH. I think
the decline of the traditional white player is related to the decline
of the well rounded player.



For clarity, I agree with Colonel Reb and this is not an argument.

Edited by: IceSpeed

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Icespeed; that's my point exactly.

 

[Gary]

Mickey Mantle was a complete baseball player-he hit with power,he could field,he hit for a high average and he was very fast down the first base line.There is no one in baseball today as good as Mantle was in his prime!

 

[IceSpeed]

I must confess something; I never saw Mantle
play. From what I have gathered(and read a lot), he had the most
all around talent baseball had ever seen. The only problem with
Mantle was that he lost the "Tom Brady" in him towards the end of his
career, and he became consumed with celebrity status. At his
peak, he was better than Ruth. If Mantle avoided drinking,
he could have shattered the Caste System in its early stages.

I think Johnny Bench could qualify for the most
complete player of all time. He raised the athletic standard for
baseball players. Pete Rose could also be considered the most
complete player of all time given his versatility. I
could go way back and bring up Tris Speaker. There are a few
active players that could be on this list, but I think a player has to
retire to be mentioned in baseball history.

 

[IceSpeed]

I also feel Paul Molitor was a victim of the
system. He could have been among one of the most complete players
of all time, but much of his speed was ignored and he had to DH.

Wade Boggs could be one of the most complete players of all time, but he is a tougher arguement.

 

[jaxvid]

Complete baseball players are considered "5 skill" players. They can: hit for average, hit for power, steal bases, field well, and throw well.

I am a big Boggs and Rose fan but neither could run well or hit for power. Speaker played before the home run was part of the game but I think he fits since he hit a lot of triples which were that eras equivalent of homers. He did everything else GREAT! A good case could be made that Speaker was the best five tool player ever and his contemporary Honus Wagner was just as good.

Baseball has few 5 tool players anymore. Power hitters concentrate on hitting homeruns and do not risk injury stealing bases. We will not see many real 5 tool players because athletes just don't work as hard at the game to develop all the skills like fielding and throwing.

 

[Bart]

Ice speed, Mickey Mantle was my first sports hero. He could do it all. Nobody got down the line faster to first. How could a guy about 6" - 200 lbs. hit mammoth home runs left and right handed., setting distance records in many parks. He hit em farther than the big juicers .


There are on-line sites chronicling some of his prodigious blasts. He is the only guy nearly hitting one out of Yankee stadium, the ball hit the upper deck'sfacade.many players claimed he would hit a ball so hard it made a crack sound that was distinctive. When they heard the crack they knew it was the Mick. He had problems with a diseased leg and didn't take care of himself. But he was not a jerk, just a shy country boy out of his element in New York.
Mickey said that the "hardest ball I ever hit" came in the 11<SUP>th</SUP> inning on May 22, 1963 at Yankee Stadium. Leading off in the bottom of the 11<SUP>th</SUP>, with the score tied 7-7, A's pitcher Bill Fischer tried to blow a fastball past Mickey.
Bad idea. Mickey stepped into it and, with perfect timing, met the ball with the sweet spot of his bat, walloping it with everything he had. The sound of the bat colliding with the ball was likened to a cannon shot. The players on both benches jumped to their feet. Yogi Berra shouted, "That's it!" The ball rose in a majestic laser-like drive, rocketing into the night toward the farthest confines of Yankee Stadium. The question was never whether it was a home run or not. The question was whether this was going to be the first ball to be hit out of Yankee Stadium.

That it had the height and distance was obvious. But would it clear the façade, the decoration on the front side of the roof above the third deck in rightfield? "I usually didn't care how far the ball went so long as it was a home run. But this time I thought, 'This ball could go out of Yankee Stadium!'"
Just as the ball was about to leave the park, it struck the façade mere inches from the top with such ferocity that it bounced all the way back to the infield. That it won the game was an afterthought. Mickey just missed making history. It was the closest a ball has ever come to going out of Yankee Stadium in a regular season game.**


I don't agree with a;; the computations but he sure hit some looong homers.


http://www.themick.com/10homers.html

 

[Don Wassall]

Bart, I remember that photograph. Mickey also hit one in 1956, I believe in Griffith Park the home of the Washington Senators, that was reputed to have gone 565 feet. That may have been the longest home run ever. That shot was on a Topps baseball card from the early '60s which I had at one time.

As my avatar might hint, Mickey is my favorite athlete of all time. The one and only idol of my life, a word that has fallen into disuse and for good reason as we now live in a dark age in spite of all the magical technology, and liberating information which is available to those whose minds have not been programmed by the system's fairy tales and lies.

I don't think any player before or since has had Mickey Mantle's combination of power and speed.

It's sad to see the love of baseball now mostly extinct. Young white American kids used to have an all-consuming passion for baseball like Dominican kids have now, and like many Canadian kids still have for hockey. Playing baseball in the off-school summer months was what many boys lived for. I know I did. But today, I'd probably be playing video games, shooting off limbs and heads and splaying blood everywhere in an imaginary world that yields no benefits while robbing so many youngsters of the wonders of childhood. Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[Bart]

Don, I agree with you entirely. Mickey did not come from a wealthy home, his dad was a lead miner and died from black lung. I get the feeling Mick always felt out of place, never enjoying his celebrity status. He did an interview with Costas, saying he felt like a failure for not livng up to expectations. Oh brother. He was amazed people thought he was special.


He admitted to swinging at bad pitches and swinging too hard, felt the fans wanted him to crank out big homers. He was not a hot dog like Mays was. Mays would wear a hat two sizes too large so that when he ran it would fly off makinghim look dramatic and fast. I saw Mays play a couple times. He would actually runway back on a fly ball so he could run up to it making his basket catch.


If any body was a natural it was Mickey Mantle. I miss those days.


Edited by: Bart

 

[Gary]

I grew up in the Cleveland area,we cheered for the Indians but Mantle was my favorite.When Mickey came to bat everybody in the park would hang on every pitch.Here are a few more complete ball players-Carl Yaztrzemski,Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams.For pure power you don't hear much of Ralph Kiner anymore but he lead the NL in HR's 7 years in a row from !946-1952.Mike Schmidt led the NL 8 times in HR's and Babe Ruth 12 times for the AL[more than Mays and Aaron put together}!

 

[Bart]

Mickey Mantle quote: " I used to keep my head down as I rounded the bases after a home run. I didn't want to show up the pitcher. I figured he felt bad enough already." Bonds and others drop the bat and admire the ball leaving the yard. Who started that stuff? I have seen Sosa hopup and down watching the ball only to have it hit the wall . He'd wind up with a single instead of an extra base hit. What an idiot!

 

[jaxvid]

Idiot? The guy should be fined for that. Isn't run don't look at the ball the first thing the coach tells you when you learn the game?

Bill James the baseball stat guy says that is the reason the the triple is disappearing from the game. He calls a triple the most exciting event in sports, if you have ever been at a game when a guy hits a triple, especially with guys on base you know what I mean. However due to the current "stop and admire your long hit" habit virtually nobody is running hard enough when the ball stays in the park to go three bases. Add the small parks and power alley's where everything either goes out or is gathered up quickly doesn't help either.

 

[jaxvid]

Don't mean to be critical but Carl Yaztrzemski and Ted Williams were not "complete" ball players in the classic sense. They were great hitters but Yaz couldn't throw very well and played left in Fenway which is the easiest place to place the outfield (unless you are Manny Ramirez and can mess up anyplace). He also did not run well. Williams did not run, field or throw well but he was probably the greatest hitter of all time.

Dimaggio WAS a complete ballplayer.

 

[Bart]

Jaxvid, good points. DiMaggio was one of the most graceful all round players to ever grace the diamond. How bout Stan the Man Musial? Hank Aaron said Musial was the best hitter he ever saw, claimed he always hit the ball hard even for an out.


I feel Williams was even a better hitter than his reputation allows. For one reason: he was a slow runner. He remarked once that if he could have run as well as Mantle he could have hit .400 a half dozen times. Boggs was also slow of foot. If he could motor he surely would have hit .400. In fact he did it once over the course of a season. The second half of one year and the first half of another, don't remeber the years.

 

[Don Wassall]

As far as the best five-tool players, I'd put Mike Schmidt in there with DiMaggio as ranking behind Mantle and Ruth. Mays and Aaron are up there as well. Schmidt's biggest weakness was a lifetime batting average of .267, but other than that he had it all. DiMaggio was fluid but not fast, at least his career total of just 30 stolen bases would indicate that.

Dale Murphy was another player who was strong in all areas, but it took him awhile to put it all together and then he declined rather quickly after a dominant period in the '80s. I really enjoyed watching him play back in the days when WTBS beamed Braves games all over the country as a prominent "superstation". Among current players, Jeff Bagwell was a great five-tool star who obviously isn't going to steal many bases at this point in his career but has over 200 lifetime. Todd Helton is a tremendous player, lacking only in the speed department. Chipper Jones is very solid in all areas. Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[kevin]

i think jonny damon is the most complete player. he is a great center fielder and can hit anwhere in the line up. i am not just saying this because i am a redsox fan but because i believe he is the most completer player. rocco balidelli is an other complete player i am not just saying that because he played for my high school but because it think he to is a great player.

 

[IceSpeed]

Yaz was an excellent fielder for Fenway park from
all of the clips and old games I have seen. Williams was a one
dimensional player, but at least he fielded. Mike Schmidt has to
be among one of the great five tool players and so does Robin
Yount. Johnny Damon is one of the most well rounded players
around today. Rocco Baldelli has the batspeed, glove, and legs to
be the most complete player ever, but just needs a breakout
season. Here are a couple blasts from the past to look up: Jackie
Jenson, and Earl Combs. What do you think of them?
Don't forget Phil Rizuto.

I think Rocco Baldelli will get more notice when the Devil Rays continue to improve.



I am also sorry for being a little rough on
Mantle. I am jealous of switch hitters because I tried to switch
hit and struggled at it.


Edited by: IceSpeed

 

[Don Wassall]

I had forgotten about Yount -- good call. George Brett is another one that deserves mention. Paul Molitor's weak area was power but he still finished with 234 homers, so he's another all-time great five-tool star.

Baldelli's still only 23, hopefully he'll develop top-notch all-around skills along with some of the other talented young white players in the majors.

 

[Bart]

A friendloaned me a DVD, of the movie"61" which is about Maris and Mantle's quest to break Ruth's record. I was reminded of the incredibleanimositydirected towards Maris. He was treated poorly by the press and the fans, seemed like a genuinely nice guy. As a boy, I also rooted for Mantle over Maris, what can I say? He deserved better.


My friend likes baseball and thought it would be a nice movie for the family. It could have been but it wasn't. Mickey is shown to be drunk or suffering a hangover most the time and every other word he spoke was a vulgarity. His physicalproblemswere wellknown but they went way over the top emphasising his human frailties. Yes, I did have sympathy for him but felt he wa made to look like a blonde air-head, weak and shallow albeit with a good heart. Just my opinion. Anyone else see the movie? If so, what was your impression?


They also did a good job of besmirching Joe DiMaggio. Judging from the dialogue it was a simple task for me to understand why they went out of their way to tarnish his image. Saint or sinner, bothmust bow at the altar of diversity or be villified.

 

[bjan]

Hey Guys,How about J.D.Drew as a complete player.He showed all of his skills last year with Atlanta,hopefully the transition to L.A.will not slow him down.

 

[jaxvid]

Howard Johnson from 1987 thru 1991 had over 20 homers and stolen bases each year, often over 30 homers or steals. It is probably the best speed/power streak for a white player in baseball history.

 

[Bart]

Jaxvid, You may be correct about Johnson, Kirk Gibson had some equivalent stats during the eighties. Ryhne Sanddberg had several good stealing yearswith good homer totals. Biggio and Bagwell were up theresomewhere. Trammel stole quite a few but don't think he hit with lots of power.


In fact Jeff Bagwell has very good career stats. Homers. rbi's, average, steals in his younger days. Surprisingly good OBP and slugging Pct.Out side of Texas I doubt if he is well known.

 

[jaxvid]

You are correct Bart. Gibby had 5 20/20 years similar to Johnson from 83 to 88. Less homers but that was probably due to the era. In 88 he was with the Dodgers in the NL and won the MVP I believe. Sandberg had 3 such years in his career with less power. Biggio and Bagwell and Canseco had 3 years also. Schmidt had two. Mantle, Yount and Molitor one.