Colts vs Patriots on Sunday.

[Kaptain]

The colts aren't 8-0 because of the change in their offense this year. They are 8-0 despite the change in their offense. They have had many games against poor opposition in which they have won games by a typical score of 13-10. The idea was to control the ball more but they have struggled in many games to get first downs. Throwing more to Stokely or Clark shouldn't be thought of as throwing a white guy a bone. These guys are weapons and should be used more if the Colts are smart. I agree with Bigunreal and Jaxvid completely. There were caste system forces that you could see brewing even last year when the offense was so successful. It's not surprising that the Colts have suddenly changed their philosophy to appease the huge egos of the modern day black athletes on that team. Peyton Manning should step up and demand that these guys are more involved in the offense.
On a side note, I can't see anything great about Edgerrin James. He is way over-rated. Relying on him too much would be a mistake. Edited by: Kaptain Poop

 

[Don Wassall]

Can even a plausible explanation be given that the drop in production this year of Brandon Stokley, Peyton Manning's close friend, isthe result of racism?


No.


The biggest drop in production on the Colts this year has not been from Stokley, but from Manning himself. Through 8 games last year Manning had 2,429 passing yards and 26 TD passes. Through 8 games this year Manning has 1,872 passing yards and 14 TD passes. That's a huge dropoff.


After 8 games last year Reggie Wayne had 8 TD receptions; this year he has 3. Only Marvin Harrison is close to last year's pace, but in the big play department -- which the Colts have gone away from this year -- look at the difference. From 1999 through '04 Harrison had anywhere from 19 to 31 catches of at least 20 yards. This year so far he has 5.


This is not the Colts offense of 2004 and previous years. The Colts are now a running team that utilizes short and medium passes. They are a ball control team, and are as ruthlessly efficient on offense as they ever were, more so really. They grind up the clock on long scoring drives and if their opponents can't reciprocate an equal number of times -- and none have so far -- they lose.


As for Dallas Clark, the only tight ends in the NFL that get lots of receptions are those that are the number one or two receiving option on their teams -- Gonzalez, Gates, Shockey, Witten, Crumpler, Heap (when healthy). Clark is the fifth option on the Colts behind Harrison, Wayne, Stokley and James. He is a great talent but he is simply not going to be another Shockey on a team with that much talent. Also, tight ends on the Colts have to block a lot as they don'tuse a fullback. When Clark blocks, Stokley is usually on the field as a third receiver; when Clark is used as a wideout Stokley generally comes off the field.


The quarterback position is where the most important racial dynamics are taking place in football, really in the entire Caste System, and it has been that way for a number of years now. If the quarterback position is lost, then football is irretrievably lost. This has been a dramatically negative year for black quarterbacks,which means it's been a goodone for white quarterbacks.


More importantly, we want great white quarterbacks, which means they have to establish a legacy, and in the NFL that means winning at least one Super Bowl.


Manning is in his eighth year now. All along the media has always used the "yeah, but" method on him. He couldn't win playoff games. The last two years the Colts beat everyone but New England in the playoffs.Yeah but hecan't beat New England. Well, on Monday the Colts dominated New England. Yeah but he can't win a Super Bowl.


I root for Peyton Manning as much as ever. He's a class act all the way and an all-time great quarterback. Stokley, because of his talent -- and because Manninghas always been very fair in throwing to him-- showed he can be a topnotch wide receiver in the NFL.


But because of the change in offense, rather that being WR 1C, Stokley's role is more that of a traditional third receiver this year. And that doesn't bother me in the least if Manning and the Colts can win the Super Bowl using that formula. I want Manning to win multiple Super Bowls, not just one.


If the Colts win it all, Stokley will cement his legacy as a key contributor -- as a white wide receiver no less -- on a championship team. He's only 29, he may still have some big games this year and big seasons down the road.


This is clearly the Colts best team since they became a playoff team. It's pretty much now or never for them this year. The Patriots are beatable, and so is everyone else. I'd much rather see Manning and Stokley with Super Bowl rings than Manning throwing 50 TDsevery year and Stokley getting 1,000 receiving yards, but the team never reaching its ultimate goal,while the likes of Michael Vick go to Super Bowls.


Harrison is a Hall of Fame receiver who is still near the top of his game. Wayne was slow to develop but he is an excellent receiver. Both know how to get open just as much as Stokley does. For Manning to force the ball to Stokley just to give him the best stats on the team would be contrived and counterproductive. For Manning and/or Stokley to get up on a soapbox and demand that Stokley be the team's number one receiver would make them look like bigger fools than Terrell Owens.


Manning is at the peak of his powers right now. He's going to execute the offense in a way that's most advantageous for the Colts to win, and he's fun to watch. I think the last thing on his mind right now is what his and Stokley's personal stats are and that's to his credit, not his detriment.

 

[SteveB]

The reason for the drop in the Colts passing game has nothing to do with the Colts but with their opponents. Last year, the philosophy of defenses was to shutdown the short passing game and running game. Put more defenders near the line of scrimmage. That opened up the deeper passing routes, especially the middle of the field, which was good for Stokley. Manning's ability to read the defenses and change plays at the line allowed him to exploit this.

A year later, defensive coordinators look at all of the tapes of last year and make their adjustments. Now you see most of the teams playing two and three deep zones against the Colts. Of course, this opens up the short passing game and running game. Mannings greatness is his ability to adapt to whatever the defense is giving him.Edited by: SteveB

 

[Don Wassall]

It's a combination of defenses scheming differently, the Colts own defense playing better, and a conscious decision by the Colts to have more of a ball control offense.

 

[Guest]

It would be folly to assume that the Colts are better this year than last year based on their victory against New England. The Patriots are a mediocore team this year, certainly not the power they once were.

I believe they used Pollard(black) quite a bit last season from his tight end position. It would only seem fitting Clark would step in and get some of those catches this year??

This year is different for the Colts however. Two years in a row of a white reciever going over 1,000 yards would be frowned upon these days. Add to the equation the loss of Pollard and the Colts knew what they needed to do.... If they continued with their white friendly ways they would be shunned by the rest of the league, their black players would quit on them, they simply couldnt afford to do it again. They went from one of the most prolific offenses of all time to just pretty good. Their defense is winning games for them, certainly not their dumbed down offense.

 

[White Shogun]

Wow.

I can't believe the hate on this site towards Manning, and yes, Stokely, he is still a Colt and still contributing, each and every game.

Outside of the Rams, and Tennessee (TENNESSEE??), who else are you going to root for? The Jags and Matt "Who?" Jones? Stokely and Manning are the best pair of white players we have in the league right now. I root for the Rams, too, with Curtis and Archuleta in the mix, but they're not as good as the Colts and won't bring the spotlight on like the Colts.

If the Colts manage to make it to the Super Bowl, Stokely will get more air time, too. He may have a break out game like Joe Jurevicius, and Tim Dwight, did before him.

We don't have a lot of options in the NFL these days, guys. We have to take what we can get, and rooting for Manning and Stokely and the Colts isn't nearly as bad as rooting for the Eagles, or the Falcons, or the Saints, or... well, you get the picture.

Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Guest]

I just cant root for them as a team, they just have so much potential to do more. They are underachievers. Sure I hope they beat ALL of the teams with black QB's. It is just frusterating to see them put one of the best offenses of ALL TIME out to pasture

 

[bigunreal]

If the Colts win a Super Bowl, that will do nothing for the future
playing prospects of either Stokley or Clark. Stokley was already on a
Super Bowl winner; remember the long TD catch he had against the
Giants? The one where Jason Sehorn's name was mentioned every time as
the DB that was beaten on the play? Stokley parlayed that big catch
to....no more real chances to be a #1 WR with the Ravens or anyone
else. It's interesting that Joe Jurevicious was mentioned in a post;
remember his big Super Bowl performance for the Bucs? What did that do
for his career? He went right back to his place, as nothing more than a
3rd WR for whatever team he plays for. Right now, he's done a great job
starting for Seattle (all their derelict black WRs are hurt), but once
Jackson is back, he will be demoted behind slow, plodding derelict
Bobby Engram to his "natural" spot in the slot. Kevin Curtis is
currently tearing it up with the Rams, like Isaac Bruce hasn't done in
years, but we all know that once Bruce comes back, Curtis moves to his
"natural" position in the slot. It wouldn't matter if he was leading
the league in receiving.



Jaxvid is exactly right; the only chance for any breakdown in the Caste
System is for the few white superstars out there- Manning, Favre,
Brady- to adopt the kind of proud and strident posture that ALL black
players do. When I came up with a quote that Manning should publicly
give about Stokley, I could hear the likes of McNabb, or Moss, or
Keyshawn, or his cousin Chad, or Mike/Michael Vick, or any number of
celebrated black players saying the exact same words about ANY black
teammate (or even an opposing player) that was being used as sparingly
as Stokley has been this season after putting up the stats he did last
year. Manning, Brady and Favre are unique among all white NFL players.
They actually have a voice. Favre, especially, is universally respected
by all black players and the jock-sniffers in the media. If he had
lobbied for Schroeder, for instance, and cricitized the fans and media
for the way they treated him, I think Schroeder's career would have
been a lot different. Of course, there is no hope for Favre, who is at
the end of his career and has shown himself willing to fall down on the
field in obviously staged theatrics in order to help a black player on
another team break one of the few remaining records held by a white
player. Manning, however, seems different. Therefore, I hold him to a
higher standard. Despite the way the offense is being run this year,
Harrison is putting up numbers. There is no question that, if he
wasn't, Manning wouldn't need to protest. The media would do that for
him. A few Monday nights ago, John Madden took a break from drooling
over Mike/Michael Vick and literally demanded that Manning stop
ignoring Harrison and throw the ball to him. Marvin was clearly sulking
most of the game, and shockingly enough, the predicatable script was
written, as Manning finally forced the ball to Harrison for a TD late
in the game, which allowed them to break the record for most TDs
connections in a career (how fitting it took place on MNF, especially
after Madden and Michaels had mentioned almost nothing else the entire
game). Anyhow, neither Madden nor anyone else would ever even question
why Stokley's numbers have dropped so dramatically, let alone demand
that Manning throw him the ball. Since we know the media is never going
to lobby for any white player ever, the handful of white QBs simply
have to do it.

 

[Don Wassall]

B&R, I was hoping you'd respond to my post above instead of basically reiterating the same points you made before. If you wanna talk about what white athletes have to go through in the NFL I'll match myawareness and empathy with their plightwith anyone's. The point I am trying to make in this thread is that it is possible for a white football player to have a falloff in production without it being caused solely because he's white.

 

[White Shogun]

The point I am trying to make in this thread is that it is possible for a white football player to have a falloff in production without it being caused solely because he's white.

Here here. Can't say it anymore clearly than that.

I think I can agree on two things:

1) Stokely's drop off in production isn't a product of racism.

2) It would be great if more white players spoke out about the discrimination they face in the NFL.

Yes, I recall Jurevicius's, Dwight's, and Stokely's play in the Super Bowl. What did it get them? A Super Bowl ring, but not much more playing time as their careers progressed. Yes. But the more guys that make it and the more guys that play well the better the odds are that it WILL be noticed. If two black quarterbacks end up facing each other in the Super Bowl, or if another one wins, that will be the beginning of the end. But white quarterbacks keep winning, and they keep winning with other white players in atypical positions, then we have a much better chance of breaking out of the stereotypes.

If we don't have ANYBODY playing, it will never happen.

 

[bigunreal]

Don,



I understand what you're saying. I also have great respect for you, and
am not used to disagreeing with you. However, as Mr. Wonderfull pointed
out, the Colts basically destroyed one of the all time great offenses
by not utilizing their prolific passing game. Yes, Harrison's numbers
are a bit down (but basically similar, especially in TD receptions, to
an average season for him). Wayne's numbers are down, too, as you point
out. However, the two main casualties of the change in offensive
philosophy are Stokley and Clark. Clark's numbers are way down from
last season, and when considering that Pollard isn't there, the numbers
he would get in that offense are way, way down. Obviously, Stokley
isn't even the same player. Instead of a 1000 yard, 10 TD receiver, he
is now a typical, not terribly productive third receiver. I understand
the conventional explanation for changing a dynamic passing attack into
a run-first offense. However, I've never bought into those cliches
("defense wins championships," "you must establish the run," etc.) Yes,
the Colts needed to upgrade their defense. They did that. They also
should probably have thought about not continuing to pass when they
were already far ahead, which they did quite a bit last season.
However, to take apart an incredible passing game, and to in effect
take the ball out of their best player's (Manning's) hands, so that a
plodding, overrated back like Edgerrin James can now carry that
offense, makes liltte sense to me. Yes, they're undefeated, so the
strategy appears to be working. I just believe that if they employed
the same offensive strategy they used so effectively last season, then
they'd still be undefeated. The difference would be that they would
have scored a lot more points in the process, and Stokely and Clark
would have a lot of those TDs.



As for the idea that NFL defenses have figured out how to stop the
Colts' passing game, let me just make a point. Why does it take NFL
teams an entire season (or offseason) to figure out that the way to
stop a team that throws the ball most of the time is to put extra DBs
in the game? That is the excuse the sportscasters are using to explain
the sudden lack of passing. I say that's ridiculous. These teams
supposedly watch game film. What else could they have seen last season,
after even a few games? Yet they didn't react to the passing game until
this season? I know there are no rocket scientists coaching in the NFL,
but come on! I guess this is the only explanation for why
defenses haven't stopped playing the pass this season, and started
stacking the line more to stop James.



In the final analysis, by changing an exciting, high-scoring offense
into a rather dull, conventional one, the three main players who have
been adversely effected are Stokley, Clark and Manning. All are white.
James has seen his touches and his numbers increase dramatically.
Harrison has been slightly effected, and Wayne has been effected to a
pretty substantial degree. I celebrate Peyton Manning's
accomplishments, and his talent, and would never root against him.
However, I just think that he could have personally audibilized some
more catches and TDs over the course of the season for Stokley and
Clark.

 

[Don Wassall]

If Manning were to continue at his present pace he'd finish with 3,744 yards and 28 TDs. The TDs would be right around his career average and the yardage would be about 400-500 yards below his average production. However, the Colts played mostly teams with bad offenses in the first half which were dominated by Indy's defense and were low scoring. They've always been ahead in games and haven't had to mount comebacks (other than against the Rams and in that game Marc Bulger was knocked out) or participate in shootouts, which is another difference from last season. They will be playing more teams with better offenses in the second half and should be involved in more high scoring games.


The Colts have fallen just short the past two seasons because they didn't have home field advantage in the playoffs and their high-powered passing game can be stopped, not by other teams so much as by January weather in outdoor stadiums.It looks right now like they will have a first round playoff bye followed by games at home indoors. It's difficult to argue with that result if it occurs. They're putting themselves in the best possible position to go to the Super Bowl. How many years does a talented team in the NFL have to win it all? I'd like to see Stokley and Clark lighting it up too, but I don't see what's happening as a deliberate policy devised by the Colts, and implemented by Manning, to keep the ball out of their hands because they're white. There are non-racial factors involved, but of course maybe I'm completely wrong.


I'm looking at the future as well, and Stokley can still have many big games and big seasons. James may be gone after this year and Harrison is getting older. I believe Wayne may be a free agent. The Colts could have a different offensive scheme again next year. I also look at Stokley's breakthrough last year as further compelling evidence that there are all kinds of white receivers who can and should be playing in the NFL, not that Stokley has to be a 1,000 yard receiver every year for the rest of his career.


I can't get down on Manning because he is managing their offense better than ever. He's a once-in-a-generation talent or even rarer and I respect him enough to not believe that he has been told not to throw to certain players or that he has made that decision himself.Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[sport historian]

Don is right in his comments about Peyton Manning. The important thing is to WIN, not roll up stats. I remember seeing O.J. Simpson run up meaningless rushing yardage while his team was losing by two touchdowns. Buffalo would be way behind in the 2nd half and would call running plays for Simpson. It's easy for a running back to get 15-20 yards in that situation.


Peyton has been rapped for not "winning the big one." He can stop that by winning a Super Bowl this year, and again next year. His stats will be very good at years end, as Don says. Stokely may well catch some big ones in the Super Bowl. That's how pro football players become famous.

 

[GWTJ]

The real culprit here is Edgerrin James. Didn't he cry last year and threaten to go to another team. I remember sportswriters saying the Colts era could be over if they lose James. So all of a sudden James is made the franchise player and given an 8 million dollar one year contract. I believe Colts management secretly promised to get him the ball more if he stayed. That may or may not include Dungy and/or Manning.

I don't think the Colts have locked up home field advantage yet either. If the Steelers beat them in a couple of weeks they will be only one game behind them and will have the tie breaker in their favor. Plus the Colts have a tougher schedule in the 2nd half.

I don't understand this desire to see the Colts win the Super Bowl because they have a white guy as their 3rd receiver and a white guy as the QB. My Steelers have just as many white starters(6) as the Colts. They are making a Pro Bowler out of their tight end and actually let their white fullback touch the ball now and then. How many teams in the NFL do that? They also have a great white QB to root for and white starters on their defense. I say, let Manning be the next Marino and Roethlisberger be the next Brady.

I will concede one thing. If the Colts make it to the Super Bowl instead of the Steelers, I will be rooting for Manning and Co.

 

[Bart]

Very interesting discussion with good points made by all. A couple things stand out when analyzing the Colts of last year to this. If we take the stats of the first eight games for James and project them for the year, he will have about 60 more carries and 260 more yds. than last season.Clark will likely have more catches but he only had 25 last year.


So, how have the big three receivers fared under the new scheme? Wayne has 46 receptions as does Harrison, both have nearly twice the number Stokley has at 25. Supposing the second half is the same as the first, Wayne and Harrison will both have more catches than last year, but Stokley will lag far behind.


How about yards? Harrison and Wayne project to less than 80-90 yds drop off for each of them. But Stokley's totals will be halved, seeing more than a 500 yd. drop off. His YPC has fallen far lower than the other two, which tells me he hasn't been the recipient of too many deep passes.


Harrison will wind up with one lessTD from the 15 of last year. Wayne will have 6, which is les than the 12 he had last year. Okay, what about Brandon'sTD totals? Last year he had 10... this year a great big fat goose egg! Zero, none, zip.What, did he forget how to get into the end zone?


Last year Brandon, had over a 1000 yds, 10 TD's and a higher YPC and YAC than Wayne and Harrison. Wayne was complaining about not getting enough passes last year and this year Harrison has been pouting. Could that explain why Stokley has been pushed to the background? There may be other reasons but ...

 

[jaxvid]

I don't think anyone here is "hateful" of Manning or Stokely. I want to see them do as well as possible. I don't think it is racial predjudice against Stokely that may have reduced his output but typical black whining from the other guys.

My feeling is that Manning should have gone to the coaches (it wouldn't have to be public) and told them "Hey, Brandon is my guy, I like throwing to him and I feel comfortable with him as one of my main targets, do something with one of the other guys."

Superstar QB's manipulate their teams like this all the time. It would not be unusual and is something that I bet would be complimented if the racial roles were reversed. But no, even the guys here think Manning should see the world in a racially neutral manner and ignore what is happening to his buddy.

Just so he can win a Super Bowl? So what happens if he wins it? Can he be racially aware next year? Or does he have to win a couple before the monkey is off his back? When can Peyton Manning stop putting his career goals ahead of his people. Never? I guess so.

 

[White Shogun]

1) How do you know Manning didn't approach Dungy with these requests?

2) How do you know that the passes Manning throws to Stokely each game, are not audibled and directed his way on purpose, for the exact reasons cited?

3) How many of you are "out" - racially aware at your place of work?

4) How do you know Manning is "not" racially aware, but, oddly enough, does not want to sacrifice his career as a professional football player to be so?

5) We preach here often about how deeply the caste system is entrenched in the NFL. Do you think that just because he is a star quarterback that any opinion he offers out of lockstep with the status quo will be heeded, particularly if it endangers the coachs livlihood and / or destroys the all-important team 'chemistry' we hear so much about?

6) Maybe when Mannnig and Stokely are alone in their hotel rooms the night before an away game, they talk about how f**ked up the caste system is and wish there was something they could do about it, too. Or, maybe not. But we don't know and never will, unless somebody writes a tell-all book at the end of their career.

And that only if they can find a publisher to sell it.

 

[jaxvid]

1) How do you know Manning didn't approach Dungy with these requests?

2) How do you know that the passes Manning throws to Stokely each game, are not audibled and directed his way on purpose, for the exact reasons cited?

3) How many of you are "out" - racially aware at your place of work?

4) How do you know Manning is "not" racially aware, but, oddly enough, does not want to sacrifice his career as a professional football player to be so?

5) We preach here often about how deeply the caste system is entrenched in the NFL. Do you think that just because he is a star quarterback that any opinion he offers out of lockstep with the status quo will be heeded, particularly if it endangers the coachs livlihood and / or destroys the all-important team 'chemistry' we hear so much about?

6) Maybe when Mannnig and Stokely are alone in their hotel rooms the night before an away game, they talk about how f**ked up the caste system is and wish there was something they could do about it, too. Or, maybe not. But we don't know and never will, unless somebody writes a tell-all book at the end of their career.

And that only if they can find a publisher to sell it.

My answers:
1) There is no way for me to know if Manning did or not but you can be pretty sure he didn't. And if he did and was serious enough about it he could have made some serious trouble for the team.

2) Audibling Stokely's way would not put him on the field more and if Manning is having to audible the few passes that are coming his way then Brandon is really in the dog house.

3) My personal situation is a bit unique but without going into details I have been fired from a job for my racial views so I know what it is like and it is not the end of the world.

4)If Manning IS racially aware then it is so well hidden as to be useless to any other white person.

5) It's gotta start somewhere with somebody or it don't happen at all.

6) I hope they aren't talking about it because they ain't doing anything about it.

 

[JD074]

I agree with Don about how important the quarterback position is. Once the QB and O-line positions go black, football will be lost for us. And most likely for everybody else, too... or at least everybody with half a brain. It's almost gone as it is.

Traditional white "pocket passers" like Brady and Leinart- and, hopefully, someday Manning- winning championships is a huge boon to football, not to mention us! We need white athletes to "hold serve" in white positions and sports. And we need black athletes in white positions/ sports, like Michael Vick (the obvious and best example,) to fall flat on their faces. We can't lose ground any more than we already have. All the time one can see signs of black sports remaining black, and white sports (like collegiate wrestling) becoming less white.

At the same time we would love to see white athletes seriously attack the "black strongholds," so to speak. Manning winning championship(s) would be great for the QB position, but it does nothing for white players at positions like WR, RB, CB, LB, etc. Only players at those positions- Stokley, Clark, Jones, Urlacher, Curtis, etc., can make a dent in the black dominance there.

Obviously we want all of the above: white pocket passers who win championships and white receivers who get playing time, make great plays, and put up impressive stats. But clearly they're two separate issues. Edited by: JD074

 

[bigunreal]

Bart summed up exactly what I'm thinking. It doesn't really matter what
the reason is, the end result of the Colts' new offensive scheme is
that Stokely and Clark are not getting the ball. Yes, Wayne's stats are
down, but something tells me that he will soon throw another tirade,
and will get the ball more down the stretch. It doesn't matter whether
it's the result of the coaching staff, Manning himself, or an NFL
decree; Stokley and Clark are not being thrown to, while Harrison and
Wayne are. I don't expect Manning to do supernatural things, but it is
obvious that he reacted to Wayne's tirade on the sidelines last season
by going away from Stokley and to Wayne. it is also obvious that he
forces the ball to Harrison enough to keep his stats up and keep him
from sulking. Look at that first short TD pass Monday night against New
England- the defender was all over Harrison. Manning made a conscious
decision to force the ball to him. Why hasn't he made a conscious
decision to force the ball to Stokley or Clark in the end zone? Stokley
is his roommate and friend; why hasn't he ever thought to throw his
buddy a crumb here or there? Why do we watch black players whine and
complain whenever they aren't getting the ball, even if the team is
winning (as it was last season, when Wayne threw his tantrum), while
expecting talents like Stokely and Clark to just sit back and accept
fewer balls for the sake of the team? This has been an
interesting discussion. I hope the fact that some of us disagree with
each other on this issue doesn't make us forget that we are all
interested in seeing white players given a fair opportunity.

 

[jaxvid]

Amen to that brother!

 

[Don Wassall]

Waiting for someone doing exceptionally well in the Caste System to speak outis like waiting for someone who is powerful within the political system to speak out on our behalf; it's not going to happen. I've been involved in the political end for 20 years and in that time frame the deterioration of America has accelerated on almost every front, yet the politicians and other system celebrities have become commensurately more timid.


If the Caste System changes it will be because of us, educatingenough people to forcechange at the grassroots level up. It will be white parents demanding fair treatment for their sons, and the sons themselves also demanding it.


We don't have the faintest clue what Peyton Manning believes in his heart, and I think it's just as unfair and unrealistic to expect him to essentially become a white leader or spokesman as it is to expect Jeremy Wariner to become one. I don't want Manning to commit career suicide. These guys help us by being great athletes and role models in spite of the Caste System. The rest is up to us, or better yet it's up to enough Americans tothink for themselves instead of obeying the media andrealize what's going on in plain view in front of them and demand an end to it, a process which will also give us spokesmen and strong organizations. Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[White Shogun]

I hope the fact that some of us disagree with each other on this issue doesn't make us forget that we are all interested in seeing white players given a fair opportunity.

I still love you guys!

 

[Don Wassall]

This has been an interesting discussion. I hope the fact that some of us disagree with each other on this issue doesn't make us forget that we are all interested in seeing white players given a fair opportunity.

I'm shutting down the site as of tomorrow, just as soon as I collect all my bats, gloves and balls.

 

[White Shogun]

I don't know if you guys are watching the Colts - Texans game, but I'm wondering if Peyton reads this forum.

Manning has already thrown 2 of 7 passes to Stokely, and 1 of 7 to Clark, for a TD.

Speaking of Clark's TD, did you see him juke and blow past the black Houston defender? It was hilarious. He left the guy stumbling and falling to the ground. Not bad for a big, slow, white TE, huh?

UPDATE: Add a TD catch for Stokely, too.

Edited by: White Shogun